Cryogenics Intake System
08-28-2003, 01:57 AM
#16
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Originally posted by Water944t
It wouldnt violate any NASCAR or CART rules that I am aware of.
It wouldnt violate any NASCAR or CART rules that I am aware of.
I'm still waiting for the polar caps to melt and the Alaska/Russia landbridge to emerge.
08-28-2003, 02:49 AM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Originally posted by Steve Lavigne
I'm still waiting for the polar caps to melt and the Alaska/Russia landbridge to emerge.
I'm still waiting for the polar caps to melt and the Alaska/Russia landbridge to emerge.
Orginally posted by Water944T
Irrelevant? Tell that to your engine.
Lets say we sub in this number:
600 Cubic feet equals 16990.1 Liters
That is 16,990L of air through the system every 60 seconds. So now instead of an 8% difference, it is more like a .00008% difference.
That is one minute of operation. How many gas cylinders do I need to run this gee whiz system for a single minute? Should I buy a bigger car, or maybe a tanker truck?
Irrelevant? Tell that to your engine.
Lets say we sub in this number:
600 Cubic feet equals 16990.1 Liters
That is 16,990L of air through the system every 60 seconds. So now instead of an 8% difference, it is more like a .00008% difference.
That is one minute of operation. How many gas cylinders do I need to run this gee whiz system for a single minute? Should I buy a bigger car, or maybe a tanker truck?
So if you have 1L of gas at 325 degrees K, and 1L of gas at 300 degrees K. There will be 8% more moles of the gas in the container thats at 300 degrees K if pressure is kept constant. This is why the unit of volume doesn't matter, it could be 500L or it could be 5mL...there is still that same 8% difference in the number of moles.
I am not certain that pressure is a constant in this scenario or not, does anybody care to post an opinion?
08-28-2003, 03:17 AM
#18
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Originally posted by Water944t
As I said before, this is in the electric turbo and cross-drilled rotor category.
As I said before, this is in the electric turbo and cross-drilled rotor category.
08-28-2003, 03:20 AM
#19
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Here's an Idea:
The Import crowd has been spraying nitrous on thier intercoolers for years. It is such a common practice that you could easily find a before/after dyno with a little net research. Then compare the temperature of Nitrous to that of C02. That would get you a good idea of its feasibility.
The Import crowd has been spraying nitrous on thier intercoolers for years. It is such a common practice that you could easily find a before/after dyno with a little net research. Then compare the temperature of Nitrous to that of C02. That would get you a good idea of its feasibility.
08-28-2003, 10:45 AM
#20
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Originally posted by adrial
Uh, you mean you're waiting for another iceage and the Alaska/Russia landbridge to emerge?
Uh, you mean you're waiting for another iceage and the Alaska/Russia landbridge to emerge?
08-28-2003, 05:02 PM
#21
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Also, this is not compressed CO21, it is liquid CO2. ABout 80 degrees below 0.
And in regards to intercooler sprayers being used in race, Rally racing has used them for years.
I agree intercooler sprayers are not as effecient as injection systems, therefore, how about this as liquid CO2 injection???? And not a sprayer. Then you are injecting oxegenated liquid that is 80 degrees below 0. Then you would see HUGE gains.
And in regards to intercooler sprayers being used in race, Rally racing has used them for years.
I agree intercooler sprayers are not as effecient as injection systems, therefore, how about this as liquid CO2 injection???? And not a sprayer. Then you are injecting oxegenated liquid that is 80 degrees below 0. Then you would see HUGE gains.
08-28-2003, 05:33 PM
#22
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How about making a tank around an intercooler, filling it with liquid nitrogen (costs a quarter a gallon) then driving around? Liquid nitrogen is around 77 Kelvin (no degrees 
) that should give a pretty dense charge. Might have to worry about the air getting too cold and getting some ice blockage, though.
) that should give a pretty dense charge. Might have to worry about the air getting too cold and getting some ice blockage, though.
08-28-2003, 06:14 PM
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If you want to inject liquid oxygen into the engine there is a proven method, Nitrous Injection. It works fantastically. I tested on my T23 with a +225hp system (for a total of about 550hp in an 850kg car). Afterwards I understood why it is also called laughing gas!
To me it sounds like you are not debating the effekt of cooling the intake charge but how long time a tube of gas would last. I think you can calculate this from the energy needed to transform the liquid CO2 into gas and then remove that energy from the air to get a figure.
10 kg of liquid CO2 could reduce the temperature of 5700kg air with one degree C. 25 degrees temperature drop would give 228kg air or enough to burn 16 kg= 20 liters of fuel. All this provided there are no losses.
Bengt
To me it sounds like you are not debating the effekt of cooling the intake charge but how long time a tube of gas would last. I think you can calculate this from the energy needed to transform the liquid CO2 into gas and then remove that energy from the air to get a figure.
10 kg of liquid CO2 could reduce the temperature of 5700kg air with one degree C. 25 degrees temperature drop would give 228kg air or enough to burn 16 kg= 20 liters of fuel. All this provided there are no losses.
Bengt
08-28-2003, 06:28 PM
#27
Nordschleife Master
the majority of turbo autocross car owners spray H20 on their intercoolers for hot laps.
S car Go invested alot of time into the Cyro setup on CJV's car.....
S car Go invested alot of time into the Cyro setup on CJV's car.....
08-28-2003, 07:37 PM
#28
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FYI, The CO2 system, fully implemented, is set up to cool the fuel rail, intake charge via the bullet thinger, then exhaust onto the intercooler.
There's another way to measure the effects of this system... Actually, this is a simpler approach:
Calculate the energy absorbed during the phase change from liquid CO2, to gaseous C02 based on a flow rate(volume) of CO2 out of the tank, for a given period of time. This will be a finite number.
Then multiply that number an efficiency ratio(ie. the amount of energy being removed from the intake system). To be uber conservative, use 50%.
The resulting number would be the amount of energy removed from the intake system.
I don't have time to do the calculations right now but my hunch is huge amounts of energy can be sucked out of the intake system when the CO2 system is engaged.
So, the quesion is, how long will one tank last??
DEI's web site is pretty uninformative, so who knows.
Sean
There's another way to measure the effects of this system... Actually, this is a simpler approach:
Calculate the energy absorbed during the phase change from liquid CO2, to gaseous C02 based on a flow rate(volume) of CO2 out of the tank, for a given period of time. This will be a finite number.
Then multiply that number an efficiency ratio(ie. the amount of energy being removed from the intake system). To be uber conservative, use 50%.
The resulting number would be the amount of energy removed from the intake system.
I don't have time to do the calculations right now but my hunch is huge amounts of energy can be sucked out of the intake system when the CO2 system is engaged.
So, the quesion is, how long will one tank last??
DEI's web site is pretty uninformative, so who knows.
Sean