B951S

Spent the weekend looking up all the threads do with Gurus 364 kit and the development of their Link-1 and Link-2 EFI systems. I am very interested in a package and researched the Vitesse system and the Guru. Did not really get a warm and fuzzy about the others out there.

Does anyone know if these products are ready to market? I found a thread from the Link rep that said the problem with the 944 inductive pick up had been sorted, and also one a few weeks ago where Danno was going to test the stuff out 'that weekend'. Anyone....Danno?

Is the T04 turbo Danno uses a ball bearing type?

On another note I could not help but notice the slagging that goes on beteen the tuners and which system / concept is deemed to be the best. While I understand this is very subjective and largely a function of what the end user wants out of an upgrade statements like the one below made on Lindsey's site make me wonder....I did find a thread where Danno explained Links position with respect to puling the link MAP product and then putting it back on only with a middle man to interface with the consumer and take on tech support so I kind of have anserwed my own question with repspect to Linsdey's claims on MAP system. Has anyone agree with them or can back up what they are saying 'cos I really like the idea of MAP but this is putting me off.


"Before considering anything but a MAF kit for your car, read the following. In recent months, there has been MAP kits introduced into the Porsche 951 Market. Companies selling these have made all sorts of claims in the attempt to market the product. Many of them incorrect and misleading. We could go on and on about what these are but the truth will eventually be realized if you do enough research and ask the right questions. We have the opportunity to sell a MAP kit, but don't think it is in the best interest of our customers. Should we decide to do so, we will forward all technical, tuning issues and problems to the manufacturer because we don't have the available time we feel it will require. In recent weeks, in following the market and the stories posted on different web sites from their customers, we have noticed a large trend that we predicted when we first saw them introduced. The information is out there, you just have to look at it and sometimes read between the lines. We are seeing that most people do not have the skill to tune them. The suppliers are trying to do all the tuning in the accompanying chip sets to reduce or eliminate the need for tuning the actual MAP controller. This is not possible since your car is not the same as the next persons car. Once tuned, it goes out of tune as the weather changes and you make changes in your engines configuration. That's MAP. Expect that. Most recently, even the original manufacturer who supplies the companies selling it into the market has came forward publicly and stat ed that a growing number of people are contacting them because of blown head gaskets. We presume the problem is much larger and growing and with time the real size and scope of the problem will be out in the open. We are "not" saying this in an attempt to take sales from our competitors. We "are" however saying this because of a concern for our customers who may be considering this route. - Lindsey Racing"

Danno

Personally I think it's best to contact the end-users and get their experiences with the products involved. I will not get into discussions about the merits, benefits or disadvantages of any competing products because it does no one any good. The technological differences between the MAF and MAP is only about 5-10% of the total value in a kit anyway. There are other things to consider such as tunability, 3D-mapping, electronic boost-control, datalogging and end-user support that needs to be factored in as well.

I'll be dyno-testing our customer car with the GURU-364 kit this coming Sat. Aug. 2nd and bring boost up to the next level. We had dialed in a good map at 16psi @ 309rwhp. Going up to 18psi should bring us in on 330-340rwhp. However, as mentioned in previous threads and shown with dyno-testing, peak HP and bragging rights is not what we're after. Good control and drivability on the street is important and requires a wide and flat powerband, which is what we spend time optimizing. Check out the dyno-chart posted here on our GUR-364 development: GURU-364 kit announcement !!!

Another evolutionary move on the horizon with our MAP kits is the re-integration of the digital 3D signal-massaging function of our Digital-MAF controller upgrade. This means with the same box, you can select MAP or MAF control with full 3D fuel-mapping. It can also work with the stock AFM if you choose. And RPM-based programmable electronic boost-controller is also an option which can control the stock CV-cycling valve and wastegate.

One improvement in GURU that should please everyone is I've located an outside contractor who can do fabrication for us with the quality and turnaround we've been seeking. The delays we've experiences with previous contrators have been eliminated and I'll be finishing up on all orders that have been outstanding this week.

Rather than re-hash the MAF vs. MAP debate, which is really irrelevant as far as the final performance level of your car, please review some of the recent threads on this:

MAF Stuff.....AGAIN!!
Huntley Racing stuff? Suggestions please
MAP vs MAF
Mods for 87 951

Sprinkled through out these discussions are testimonials from our users, please feel free to contact us or them about their experiences.

Dwayne Williams

Well, I'm far from being a 951 expert and I really couldn't sit down and say whether MAF or MAP is better. All I can really comment on is my personal experiences. I currently have the Guru Stage I MAP kit on my car and have run it for the last 1500 miles or so and I've been really happy with it so far. Happy enough that I've asked Danno to supply me with a bunch more stuff that should arrive in the next week or so. I can say that the MAP kit has helped me to identify problems with my car - like boost leaks, bad BOV, etc... Not that the MAP kit points those things out or caused them, I just became more familiar with the car and started to learn more about it while installing the kit and tweaking it. And since I raised the boost level, I'm sure that stressed the parts that have been on this car since it rolled out of the factory. The MAP kit is really not that hard to adjust with the hand-held controller. For optimal results you probably need some sort of boost controller and a decent wastegate, eliminate all boost and vacuum leaks, check the BOV, etc... and then start tuning. I made some changes to my car after I installed the kit (wastegate, exhaust, etc...) and anytime you make changes like that you will probably need to tweak the A/F ratios accordingly - that's true of either MAF or MAP BTW. But with a decent wideband or some dyno time it's not that hard. It's a lot easier if you get the serial adapter and log your runs to your PC for later analysis. That will capture your 02 sensor voltage, zone, RPM, etc... Make small adjustments to the appropriate zones and run again. Repeat as necessary (just make sure your O2 sensor is warmed up before you start recording).

m42racer

Lindsey Racing know absolutely nothing what they are saying here. There is no evidence that the Map controller is the reason for blown headgaskets. Look at some of the posts here recently that ask what chip set was used when the H/G was blown. How they can connect the dots with this is beyond me. Maybe the Lindsey people could back up that comment with some facts.

As for the comment about the manufacturer making a statement about peolpe contacting them about H/G loss, I'm sure if your a respected engine builder people will ask you these questions. I did read a post from someone who stated the reson was poor design of Headstuds, gasket improvements etc. How Lindsey connected those dots is beyond me. I think you need to read the posts of the users, not the people who are been left behind in product. I think there is plenty of real experiences from MAP users, MAF users who would give some real answers.

How a programmable product can be blamed for blowing H/G's is a little much too. Is it not the programming that causes this, not the product.

B951S, read Danno's post and get some REAL user comments. Then make your choice. Do not let people who know nothing about the product sway your choice. Real information not spindoctoring should be the determining factor here. I think both the MAF or MAP are good alternatives. Seems there are some who like to comment when they no nothing about what they say. A very good question to Lindsey should be, have you used one of these devices, and did it blow the H/G. A very good question to Guru should be, how many of your kits have blown H/G's.

m42racer

I just went to the lindsey site and read what they are saying. The way I read it is they are not saying they know, just what they think may happen. This is even more bizzare, as what they really want you to think, worry, fear, is if you don't buy their solution this may happen. If I'm wrong here, I read it wrong. Thats the way I see it.

With the recent additions to our product choices, why not ditch both the MAF and MAP and buy one of Guru's EFI systems. Then you won't have to worry about your H/G blowing. Now thats a stretch. I know it. I just could resist it.

rcldesign

For once I'm agreeing with M42 here... lots of OEMs use MAFs, and lots more use MAP. The main reason to choose one over the other is price. MAP sensors are cheap and easy to install. MAF sensors are more expensive, and the install is a little less flexable. The only disadvantage of MAP sensors is with cars that are normally aspirated and perhaps have some aggressive cam profile. Those vehicles don't make much vacuum, and obviously no boost, so the load sensing range that a MAP can privide is very, very small. In that sort of situation you would have to go with a MAF, or perhaps (ick) a TPS setup.

MAF kits and MAP kits should not blow head gaskets. Leave the headgasket blowing to age, too much boost, too much timing, too much compression, bad gas, and bad tuning.

Ski

One thing with the GURU MAP and LR MAF is they provide temp sensors. Maybe some others do also but as far as
temp sensors go, these are most notable and I think these allow for better tuning, my .02

We all know HG blow from age and lean conditions and let's throw in low octane too. You just can't turn up the boost
and expect everything to be ok, the owner has to be smart.

As we pour $$$ into our cars, I just don't understand why more people are not getting wideband O2 sensors to assist in
tuning their cars. No, they aren't the cheapest little mod you can make but in the end, between Tech Edge and
LR, it would just about be 3 trips to the dyno. Also the money and time involed in doing a HG job, even if you do it yourself would
be saved too.

If Lindsey said there have been some HG blown, then someone has blown them. HOW they blew is another story that only THAT
owner knows - which he is not going to make himself look like a total fool. But, the main distributor for LINK here in the states
has recently had some shake up in their ranks(if they are still the ones - Danno, still the same people?) and one of those people I
wouldn't have trusted to tell me the weather. Dave is passing on iformation that he has been give by that distributor I bet and I would
also bet that that distributor has no where near the knowledge of GURU on MAP.

crazyracer

As Danno stated here he does not want to go into discussions about other tuners products. But he also states that the 3D mapping of his digital MAF upgrade is revolutionary - YES! Can the lindsey digital MAF do this - NO! Have you guys realized what this means?

m42racer

Yes, we do agree here. right is right. I think its a case of sour apples here. lindsey are just been left behind in our very small race.

B951S

Danno
Appreciate the promt and honest feedback. My bias has alwas been towards your MAP as it appears that you have really spent some time in making it user friendly and there is some real positive feedback around. Of my previous cars, 3 of them used MAF conversions. All were Hunltley / split second. One car was a 1986 951, I never got it to run right, used to fiddle with it constantly. The other was a 944 S2, same thing but not as much fiddling. The last was a 964 with the 3.6 motor. I have a turboperformance eaton blower with there secondary injector driver / timing retart box and the Split second MAF. Getting the car to run right was hopeless. I converted the MAF to use the stock temperature probe out of the Bosch AFM and gave the DME a proper temp signal instead of the clamped output from the ARC.

Anyways, look forward to hearing more about the 364 kit. Hope you can get it out soon. A few questions about it:

Does the T04 turbo have a ball bearing center section?


I really like the idea of mapable boost. A few years ago on my old 951 I used a 15psi adjustable check valve I got from work on my old 951 and quickly realized that I needed a bleed hole to allow the WG to stroke. The one thing that became apprent with these and simiar devices is that the car made too much boost on part throttle where I did not necessarily need it. I am hoping that the programmable boost in the Link will allow me to map throttle position and RPM to intelligently control the CV rather that just blocking off the WG signal with a check valve. In theroy, the CV should be able to replicate a check valve (no WG signal) by contantly venting until the singnal to intake until the boost level approaches the set level where is will start sending the signal to the WG (like stock). The question is, is the stock CV (and BOV) really up to taking 20psi??

Look forward to your comments.

Danno

"Anyways, look forward to hearing more about the 364 kit. Hope you can get it out soon. A few questions about it:

Does the T04 turbo have a ball bearing center section? "

That will be an option of you wish. Ball-bearing centers help spool up the turbo from cruising-boost to max-boost at that RPM a little faster. But it won't change the boost-curve or torque-curve because that flow is determined simply by the ratios of turbine to compressor sizes.


"I really like the idea of mapable boost. A few years ago on my old 951 I used a 15psi adjustable check valve I got from work on my old 951 and quickly realized that I needed a bleed hole to allow the WG to stroke. The one thing that became apprent with these and simiar devices is that the car made too much boost on part throttle where I did not necessarily need it. "

On cars with stock turbos and manual controllers, the sudden onset of boost at partial-throttle can be exciting and fun. But once you cross over the 350rwhp mark, the non-linear boost makes for a difficult to control car. Erick hit the nail on the head in the 'chips & headgaskets' thread about having boost mapped to throttle-position. The electronic boost-controller in our MAP boxes is the same one used in the Link1/2 EFI systems with a programmable boost-level in 500rpm increments. This boost is generated at WOT/full-throttle and if you only open the throttle 50%, the controller will only give you 50% of the programmed boost. Very managable.

"In theroy, the CV should be able to replicate a check valve (no WG signal) by contantly venting until the singnal to intake until the boost level approaches the set level where is will start sending the signal to the WG (like stock). "

Exactly, there's a trigger RPM where the controller will start to regulate boost (separate from user-defined boost-table). Below this RPM, the controller will keep the wastegate completely shut to spin up the turbo as fast as possible.

"The question is, is the stock CV (and BOV) really up to taking 20psi?? "

As for the CV managing 20psi, that's not an issue because the flow to the wastegate is a dead-end path. What is an issue is the cracked plastic ports on the darn thing. Too many people have had them crack when replacing hoses. We're testing out some aftermarket 3-port solenoids as replacements. The NipponDenso unit used with the Profec and Apexi electronic controllers is very nice, but tend to be very expensive when purchased separately. But we've got some other options in testing now.

More news after this weekend..

awilson40

Danno,
Will the boost control be available on the "Intercepter Link"
I also have a question about the Link programmer...
Does it show what cell you are running on in realtime so you know which
to adjust?
What information can be data logged from the Interceptor Link.

I think you answered this before, If so sorry, But can the Intercepter be programmed via a laptop and monitored in real time like the Link 1 ?
Or is the only way to programm it is with the Link Programmer.
Thanks Man.

B951S

So is the stock Bosh BOV good for that much pressure? Also, is a good quality dual port wastegate compatible with the Link-2 / stock CV set up or do you have to go with an aftermarket solenoid to control the dual port WG?

Perry 951

There has not been too many people who have installed the stock air temp sensor into a MAF/ARC-2 setup, so the info there is limited.

Before my fire, I ran the same MAF and ARC-2 I have now without the temp sensor. It was not easy to tune at all, and I had to adjust it every time I drove the car. Most times they were little adjustments as the car warmed up to temp, but it was rather aggravating.

Since the fire, I have installed the OEM temp sensor from my old AFM and removed the ARC-2 temp clamp. I had it tuned in less than a day, and I have not had to touch the ARC-2 in normal driving in over 1800 miles. I have run it on 50 degree mornings and 95 degree stop and go afternoons with not so much as a problem. Mixtures are always where I had them.

I will be pushing up the boost sometime soon (1200 more miles) and fine tuning it on the Dyno. I would expect it to be painless and have the same success in the daily commute as before.

As for the MAP, I would assume the same performance and reliability I have had so far with my MAF. The clear advantage to the Link is datalogging, much better resolution in tuning via Cell Access, the additional output features such as boost control, timing control, and more. The ARC-2 is old technology that works, but does not have all the bells and whistles.

That's what I have found over the years. I went with my setup because I already had it and know how to use it, but if I was to start with a clean slate, I would go with the newest technology and improve as it does.

Danno

"Will the boost control be available on the "Intercepter Link""

No, due to the the InterceptLink being a specific function of the MAP box that's been spun off into its own product, it can't be upgraded with the electronic boost-controller from the EFI boxes.

"I also have a question about the Link programmer... Does it show what cell you are running on in realtime so you know which to adjust? "

Yes, it shows the exact 3D load X rpm zone you're operating in from this InterceptLinkZoneWorksheet.gif. You can then mark on the worksheet which zones need which adjustments. It also shows VoltageIN -> VoltageOUT as well for an active display of current air-flow voltage.

"What information can be data logged from the Interceptor Link. "

You can capture TPS-position (load), RPM, air-flow zone, volt-in, volt-out.

"But can the Intercepter be programmed via a laptop and monitored in real time like the Link 1? Or is the only way to programm it is with the Link Programmer. "

The laptop is used for datalogging and the TuningModule shows realtime display of air-flow zone, volts in & out, etc. The Intercept can only be programmed from the TuningModule. It's actually much, much faster this way because you can store the TuningModule in the cassette-tray/arm-rest and make instant changes at stoplights. Another way to make adjustments is live with the TuningModule. It will shows the current air-flow zone being used and you can hit the ADJUST UP/DOWN buttons to make changes to that zone immedidately. This can be a little tricky unless you are driving at a steady-state condition. Better to datalog and overlay the dyno-sheet with the air-flow zone worksheet.

"So is the stock Bosh BOV good for that much pressure?"

Sure, the BOV sees equal pressure on both sides of the diaphragm if you have hit hooked up to recirculate boost. So it doesn't matter how much boost you're running. Issue is when you have the BOV vented to atmosphere, which would require a stiffer spring matched to boost levels. Stiffer springs also cause a delay in venting and slows down the turbo more between shifts (saw a ricer website somewhere with charts... will try to dig it up).

"Also, is a good quality dual port wastegate compatible with the Link-2 / stock CV set up or do you have to go with an aftermarket solenoid to control the dual port WG?"

Yes, most certainly. You'll need to re-program the boost-curve a little to lower the duty-cycle. The CV will actually be working less when used with an aftermarket wastegate. I'm testing a new boost-solenoid from a 3rd party and so far it looks promising...