333pg333

What is that you're coming from...as in, do you just have a stock 2.5L motor? If so I would also suggest buying something like a Vitesse Stage III kit and with the change you can spend it on other things such as suspension, wheels, tyres, brakes or whatever. A friend previously had the VR S3 kit and the car went very well. $8k might seem like a lot of money on paper considering that you can buy a pretty decent 951 for that money, but once you start customising the costs grow exponentially. Going the Sid/Shawn hybrid route will be the cheapest especially if you can do it yourself.

Ps if you can get Chris to build a 3ltr for $8k put me down for a few too.

Joel8005

Build and tune 25K minimum.

blade7

If you buy all the best parts new and pay someone to build it probably. I think I can build a 3.0 for $8-10k, though I've been collecting parts from abandoned projects for quite a while...

Chris White

Yes, its my new line of 3.0 liter engines for 1/18 scale 951s.

Chris White

I always get a chuckle out of the 'how much for a 3.0' question.

So here are some things to consider where thinking about any project -

R&R a turbo engine (any size!) is about 30 hours if done with all details included. These are 25+ year old cars - many things to address when swapping an engine out and reinstalling it. many aftermarket parts need 'massaging' to fit or line up - especially exhaust systems. So R&R the engine could be up to $3k depending on your shops rates (plus oil, antifreeze, PS fluid, filters and such).

Non performance items - Coolant hose kit, hose clamps, vacuum lines, fasteners and alike will add up ....quickly.

Clutch - its insane not to replace the clutch and throw out bearing while the engine is out. might as well get the full kit and replace the pressure plate. Stock kit - $700...performance $1k+

So we have 'invested' about $4k without even touching the engine. Yeah that's a high side estimate - but there are a lot of gotchas that you will find on an old car....engine mounts...O2 sensors...exhaust hangers...

The engine itself can run a huge range depending on usage. Cut corners and you may find that you are not happy with the results. Go to the extremes and it will cost a lot - you can easily spend $20k on a 'race quality' engine.

The biggest factor - what you can do yourself. building the short block and the head is stuff best left to an engine builder, bolting on the rest of the stuff can be done by just about anybody that can follow directions and work in an exacting manner (no hammers allowed).

the bottom line - if you supply a good 3.0 block, crank, some good rods and a 2.7 head I can put together a 3.0 with new pistons, new bearings, new head studs and new fasteners, rebuilt head for under $5k. You get to install the cam tower, turbo, manifolds, belts and rollers and accessories. That's about as inexpensive as I can get it.

So if you can do a lot of work yourself its possible. That pretty much sums up owning a 944 turbo!!

blade7

Is that with a linered block ?

Chris White

Nope, that's based on using a good 3.0 block.

blade7

In your experience are many used blocks useable without machining work ?

Chris White

Many of the 3.0 block are in good shape - they have not been used anywhere near as hard as the 2.5 turbo blocks!

remember that the aim of the build I quoted was the lowest possible build cost with acceptable quality. I would rather refinish the bores but that will add almost $1k for nikasil or $2+k for Darton MID sleeves.

blade7

Thanks. You never just take the Alusil cylinders to first oversize ?

Ernie J

Max size 106mm for a 3L.

Darwantae951

Some have "claimed" to go over 106 with MID sleeves, with no reports on reliability. I'd be hard pressed to exceed what Darton specs as max bore (106 for 3L sleeves, if you're using a 2.5L block, max they spec is 104).

Chris can elaborate, but from what I understand, it has more to do with where the sleeve interfaces with the block at the bottom.

I'd be interested to hear back on how engines are holding up past 106, tho!

refresh951

I find it interesting that some discuss 3L motors like the Hybrid Stroker option does not exist. With Sid's motor, my motor, and Dukes motor (his motor is a very nice Hybrid Stroker with a 3L block and a dry sump) we have gone a long way to proving it out. Several more motors are quite a ways along and should surface soon. Not saying it is for everyone but it certainly is a legit option.

Chris White

There is no doubt that they do exist and its a nice solution - if the owner is good with engine building and has the right connections. I wouldn't suggest it to somebody as their first engine project unless they were very mechanically inclined and already knew how to mic a crank, check big end sizing and do 'real' bearing clearance checking (no Plastigage!).

There are not a lot of shops that can offset grind and heat treat a crank back to factory hardness. The 'smart' guys know where to go and what to ask for. Newbies won't be so lucky.

BTW - I would also not suggest sleeving as a DIY option!

Chris White

The 'hole' that is machine into the block floor is 111.125mm in diameter - this is what holds the very bottom of the sleeve in place. at 106mm bore that means the wall thickness is only 2.5625mm. That's Darton's minimum recommended wall thickness - and I certainly wouldn't want to go any thinner!

To be honest it doesn't make much sense to me to spend a lot of time and money going after more displacement unless you have solved the other problems - oiling, head lift and block stability. The 16v 3.1 engines I have worked with make 600 crank hp at 1 bar of boost. That is enough power for most folks and unless you take other steps to keep it happy that is enough power to flex the block in track applications.

If somebody wants a 4.0 944 engine I would be happy to build it - as long as the owner promises to never ever start it - its for show only!!!