Let the holy war begin!
12-30-2013, 09:20 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Let the holy war begin!
Someone tell me why Valvoline VR-1 Synthetic isn't the perfect oil for an old 951. Go!
12-30-2013, 09:58 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
I thought so too. I recently did an oil change and used VR-1. When engine is warm, used to have idle oil pressure around 3bar, using 5W40. With VR-1 20W50, oil pressure never drops below 4 bar.
Not sure if this is good, bad or doesn't matter. My engine only has 60k on it.
Not sure if this is good, bad or doesn't matter. My engine only has 60k on it.
12-30-2013, 10:01 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
That's all I was really looking for...just someone out there who was thinking the same thing. I mean, synthetic (for the turbo and hot spots) and racing (verifiable ZDDP and other slick stuff)...what's not to like? Besides the price, of course...
12-30-2013, 10:16 PM
#4
Race Car
Full disclosure, I am the NA distributor for Millers Oils, so obviously a competitor.
WHich one? The "not legal for street use" stuff, which is an actual Group IV racing oil? Or the "VR-1" which is a Group III street oil? The race oil has very, very low detergent levels, and will become acidic in only a few hundred miles, which is why they mandate that it is changed frequently. The Group III stuff is not a true synthetic, in that all Group III's are very highly refined petroleum products. They do not handle heat nearly as well as "real" synthetics. For a history, look up Mobil versus Castrol Syntec 1999, when a court ruling allowed a petroleum product was allowed to be marketed as a synthetic. the only stuff I will put in my race car is Millers CFS NT, Motul 300V, or Amsoil DOminator. Street car might not need so much, but given the turbos, and that they were designed when synthetic really meant synthetic, I'm willing to spend more.
By the way.......on ZDDP, more is not better. It becomes quite detrimental at higher levels. 1300ish ppm is the upper limit. They put it in there because it is cheap, and it markets well. But Slick 50 marketed well, too.
Here's a good read on oil from Race Engine Technology that lays out what it all means. http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF..._Expensive.pdf
WHich one? The "not legal for street use" stuff, which is an actual Group IV racing oil? Or the "VR-1" which is a Group III street oil? The race oil has very, very low detergent levels, and will become acidic in only a few hundred miles, which is why they mandate that it is changed frequently. The Group III stuff is not a true synthetic, in that all Group III's are very highly refined petroleum products. They do not handle heat nearly as well as "real" synthetics. For a history, look up Mobil versus Castrol Syntec 1999, when a court ruling allowed a petroleum product was allowed to be marketed as a synthetic. the only stuff I will put in my race car is Millers CFS NT, Motul 300V, or Amsoil DOminator. Street car might not need so much, but given the turbos, and that they were designed when synthetic really meant synthetic, I'm willing to spend more.
By the way.......on ZDDP, more is not better. It becomes quite detrimental at higher levels. 1300ish ppm is the upper limit. They put it in there because it is cheap, and it markets well. But Slick 50 marketed well, too.
Here's a good read on oil from Race Engine Technology that lays out what it all means. http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF..._Expensive.pdf
12-31-2013, 11:02 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Full disclosure, I am the NA distributor for Millers Oils, so obviously a competitor.
WHich one? The "not legal for street use" stuff, which is an actual Group IV racing oil? Or the "VR-1" which is a Group III street oil? The race oil has very, very low detergent levels, and will become acidic in only a few hundred miles, which is why they mandate that it is changed frequently. The Group III stuff is not a true synthetic, in that all Group III's are very highly refined petroleum products. They do not handle heat nearly as well as "real" synthetics. For a history, look up Mobil versus Castrol Syntec 1999, when a court ruling allowed a petroleum product was allowed to be marketed as a synthetic. the only stuff I will put in my race car is Millers CFS NT, Motul 300V, or Amsoil DOminator. Street car might not need so much, but given the turbos, and that they were designed when synthetic really meant synthetic, I'm willing to spend more.
By the way.......on ZDDP, more is not better. It becomes quite detrimental at higher levels. 1300ish ppm is the upper limit. They put it in there because it is cheap, and it markets well. But Slick 50 marketed well, too.
Here's a good read on oil from Race Engine Technology that lays out what it all means. http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF..._Expensive.pdf
WHich one? The "not legal for street use" stuff, which is an actual Group IV racing oil? Or the "VR-1" which is a Group III street oil? The race oil has very, very low detergent levels, and will become acidic in only a few hundred miles, which is why they mandate that it is changed frequently. The Group III stuff is not a true synthetic, in that all Group III's are very highly refined petroleum products. They do not handle heat nearly as well as "real" synthetics. For a history, look up Mobil versus Castrol Syntec 1999, when a court ruling allowed a petroleum product was allowed to be marketed as a synthetic. the only stuff I will put in my race car is Millers CFS NT, Motul 300V, or Amsoil DOminator. Street car might not need so much, but given the turbos, and that they were designed when synthetic really meant synthetic, I'm willing to spend more.
By the way.......on ZDDP, more is not better. It becomes quite detrimental at higher levels. 1300ish ppm is the upper limit. They put it in there because it is cheap, and it markets well. But Slick 50 marketed well, too.
Here's a good read on oil from Race Engine Technology that lays out what it all means. http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF..._Expensive.pdf
The PDF paper you provided states that ZDDP is a good thing, just that it is being phased out in modern oils. I did a long study on this issue a while back, and it seems that high efficiency catalytic converters have more surface area, and therefore are more easily fouled by ZDDP type additives. The engineering compromise that is made on modern cars is that very high pressure metal to metal contact in the engine is reduced. This in turn lowers the requirement for zinc and phosphorus protection (ZDDP, by whatever method). Since modern engines strive to reduce this type of contact through efficiency concerns anyway (a high friction internal part is bad for efficiency, regardless), it really isn't much of a problem. For our old tractor engines, well, ZDDP is still required, or at the very least a very good idea.
After reading these materials, its seems that VR-1 and Amsoil are nearly identical oils. Amsoil also states "it is heavily fortified with zinc and phosphorus anti-wear additives". I can only conclude that it is referring to ZDDP there, but perhaps I am wrong. Does Amsoil claim to be a class 4 oil? If so, I don't see it.
Motul is intended for a shared transmission/clutch engine, and is formulated to that end (Moly). I'm not sure it that would be good for a automotive application, with the exception of an original Mini-Cooper. It might be, but it certainly isn't marketed that way. Motul says that it is "DI-Ester", implying that it is class 4, but not directly stating it).
The Miller oil seemingly would be very short pour, as it is intended specifically for race engines that are actually racing. However, like Motul it at least claims "Triple Ester", implying that it is class 4 (but again, not directly stating it). It is also a very boutique type oil, without a wide base of testing. I'm not saying this is a bad thing about the oil, but it definitely changes my own personal risk management profile.
So, to get the "best" oil, I need Class 4 synthetic with zinc and phosphorus added by some methodology, implying a "racing" oil in this new world order of oils. BUT, a "racing" oil that still has detergents in it, which somewhat defeats the purpose and compromises the "racing" part. VR-1 Synthetic and Amsoil Racing are indeed perfect, with the exception of them being Class 3.
Anyone know of a Class 4 "racing" oil with detergents and wide availability? That would be the "perfect" oil.
12-31-2013, 11:06 AM
#7
+1 on the BP "green oil" 20/50
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12-31-2013, 03:13 PM
#8
Race Car
Again, reminder that I'm affiliated with Millers. I strive to be objective with what I share, but do keep in mind my affiliation when you read my responses.
Alias, you've got a few things confused. There are very, very few oils designed for shared applications, both of the ones I know of are Millers products - Classic Mini oil, and the Motorsports version of it, which is CTV. Moly, or molybdenum disulphide is a common friction modifier. It is almost universally found in race oils. There are multiple forms of it, some are EP additives, some are not. There is no way to tell from spectral analysis the type that is in there. But all of the oils mentioned have some, at least to my knowledge. It is not as common in street oils.
ZDDP has been phased down to lower concentration levels. Not gone, but reduced. It is enabled to a degree by the increased use of roller bearings, particularly as more engines are going from DAM/HB to RFF valvetrains. The phosphorous in it will poison cats over VERY LONG periods of time. Poisoning can be undone with heat (e.g. doing a DE). But, as OEM's are on the hook for emissions components for much longer than engines, and cats are almost as costly as engines, they have a reason to push ZDDP content lower. Even if it were being dictated by the EPA, which it is.
At any rate, levels of current API SN oils now are around 600ppm. An ideal level will be 1000-1300 for race applications. Anything over that becomes detrimental. ZDDP is STICKY. It casuses drag. A couple of unnamed examples. Similar oils from our competitors for detergent levels, base stock blends, etc. One has a coefficient of friction of about 0.09 at operating temperature, and an oil film of over 90%. That one has 1000ppm ZDDP. The other has a coefficient of friction of around 0.12, and an oil film of under 10%. The ZDDP is sticky, and it interferes with the oil's ability to form a good film on the parts, as it is also polar. Oil film is important, but keep in mind for most of the engine, you have positive pressurized flow, so even if an oil forms a poor film, it will still be there due to mechanical forces, if not chemical ones.
ALmost all race oils are blends of multiple types of base stocks. Group IV is often the highest concentration of them. But it is a very, very poor lubricant on its own. Oils with no Group V typically (not always) have oil films much, much lower than those with Group V. Groups III and V are much, much better lubricants. Group V especially, is polar, so it will stick to the metal. That will give good lubricity. Group IV is not, so the oil does NOT stick to the metal. As a result, blenders will mix base stocks. Some oils, such as Mobil 1 and Royal Purple, contain no Group V. Some contain a very slight amount, such as the Driven oil. Most of hte ones that do contain it are around 10-13%, such as the Millers, Torco, Amsoil, etc. A couple, Motul and Red Line, contain 20%. Group IV oil has superior temperature range to Group V, so it is used extensively. It is also less expensive, which is one of the reasons it is more common. Group III is often used as a "filler" once the proper balance of properties from IV and V are met. Keep in mind that ZDDP is polar, as is Group V, so the two have to be blended carefully. Once you get those, you set the IV concentration to work well with how much V you have, in both offsetting each other's weaknesses (i.e. IV makes seals shrink, V makes them swell), and hitting the target VI, and then you have the left over as III.
Group III is also konwn as hydrocracked. IV is most commonly known as PAO (polyalphaolefin), and V is technically "other," but it de facto means the esters. There are many different types of esters that can be used. Motul's "di-ester" content means that two different esters are used in their base stocks. To my knowledge, Millers is the only one using a tri-ester. It makes it more expensive, but it makes the oil much better.
That said, there are oils out there that are made because they can market well. One very heavily marketed brand has a race oil that has tons of Group III in it, mixed with tons of VI improvers. I am highly confident of this because it has been shown to shear down VERY quickly, and it is recommended ot be changed very frequently. If it had lots of Group IV, it wouldn't shear down that quickly. But, high VI sells well, as does high ZDDP, so they'll make junk and market the crap out of it.
Many race oils have high detergent levels. The three I mentioned have about 2500ppm of CaSO4, which is the primary detergent. Again, that is Motul 300V, Millers CFS NT, and the Amsoil Dominator. On the Millers, its detergent pack is derived from its API SN detergent pack, which is an extended drain interval pack. I would assume the Motul and Amsoil is similar. They are all designed to handle endurance events. You'd NEVER do something like that in a low detergent pack oil such as a Gibbs (650ppm) or Valvoline Racing oil (also about 650ppm). Consequently, you can run the Millers, 300V, or Amsoil on the street for pretty long periods of time, several thousand miles. You'd never do that with some of the others. We ran Karl's 996 in World Challenge last year - 1700 race miles, 9 races over 5 weekends. On a single fill of oil, and at the end of the season, it was STILL in very good shape. We have a report of that on our website if you want to check it out. I am confident the other two I like would fare well, too, but I doubt they'd go that long without wear metals getting too high - the nanotechnology in the Millers has been shown to drastically cut wear. So I'm not sure why you thought it was a short pour oil, as it is most definately not!!!!
Not sure why you think it lacks a wide base of testing. The big difference between Millers and most of the others is that Millers is a much, much smaller company. Mobil 1 gives away more oil to the Grand Am series than Millers sells in the US (this is not speculation, it is based on conversations with teams, and obviously a knowledge of how much oil Millers sells in the US since it all goes through me). Millers just does not market much. Most of the efforts are technical partnerships such as the one with Bryan Herta, or just complimentary oil to a few teams. It has an extremely high percentage of staff devoted to D&R, and very few to marketing. It is used professionally in many more places than you realize. There are a great many 944 guys using it, as Racer's Edge (an affiliate) now uses it in its customer cars, Comat Motorsports (multiple 944 Cup Champ) in Canada is now a dealer, and another race shop in the midwest with many, many 944's under their care is now using Millers. I am actually heading to Mooresville, NC next Friday to take some oil to 1 team, a supplier of drivetrains to 15 teams, and possibly a second team. But again, don't confuse high levels of marketing efforts with high levels of testing. Unfortunately, I can't share some of the most advanced entities who have tested some of the products quite thoroughly. But I will say that there are examples out there where the Millers has been tested and used by professional teams who are sponsored by a competitor.
Sorry if htis turned into an infomercial. Again, tried to be objective, which is one of the reasons I endorsed a couple of other good oils. We've sponsored on and off, but most of the sponsorships are for companies with a broader scope than we have, so it isn't cost effective for us to be a permanent one. Not trying to cheat that, just clear up some misconceptions.
Alias, you've got a few things confused. There are very, very few oils designed for shared applications, both of the ones I know of are Millers products - Classic Mini oil, and the Motorsports version of it, which is CTV. Moly, or molybdenum disulphide is a common friction modifier. It is almost universally found in race oils. There are multiple forms of it, some are EP additives, some are not. There is no way to tell from spectral analysis the type that is in there. But all of the oils mentioned have some, at least to my knowledge. It is not as common in street oils.
ZDDP has been phased down to lower concentration levels. Not gone, but reduced. It is enabled to a degree by the increased use of roller bearings, particularly as more engines are going from DAM/HB to RFF valvetrains. The phosphorous in it will poison cats over VERY LONG periods of time. Poisoning can be undone with heat (e.g. doing a DE). But, as OEM's are on the hook for emissions components for much longer than engines, and cats are almost as costly as engines, they have a reason to push ZDDP content lower. Even if it were being dictated by the EPA, which it is.
At any rate, levels of current API SN oils now are around 600ppm. An ideal level will be 1000-1300 for race applications. Anything over that becomes detrimental. ZDDP is STICKY. It casuses drag. A couple of unnamed examples. Similar oils from our competitors for detergent levels, base stock blends, etc. One has a coefficient of friction of about 0.09 at operating temperature, and an oil film of over 90%. That one has 1000ppm ZDDP. The other has a coefficient of friction of around 0.12, and an oil film of under 10%. The ZDDP is sticky, and it interferes with the oil's ability to form a good film on the parts, as it is also polar. Oil film is important, but keep in mind for most of the engine, you have positive pressurized flow, so even if an oil forms a poor film, it will still be there due to mechanical forces, if not chemical ones.
ALmost all race oils are blends of multiple types of base stocks. Group IV is often the highest concentration of them. But it is a very, very poor lubricant on its own. Oils with no Group V typically (not always) have oil films much, much lower than those with Group V. Groups III and V are much, much better lubricants. Group V especially, is polar, so it will stick to the metal. That will give good lubricity. Group IV is not, so the oil does NOT stick to the metal. As a result, blenders will mix base stocks. Some oils, such as Mobil 1 and Royal Purple, contain no Group V. Some contain a very slight amount, such as the Driven oil. Most of hte ones that do contain it are around 10-13%, such as the Millers, Torco, Amsoil, etc. A couple, Motul and Red Line, contain 20%. Group IV oil has superior temperature range to Group V, so it is used extensively. It is also less expensive, which is one of the reasons it is more common. Group III is often used as a "filler" once the proper balance of properties from IV and V are met. Keep in mind that ZDDP is polar, as is Group V, so the two have to be blended carefully. Once you get those, you set the IV concentration to work well with how much V you have, in both offsetting each other's weaknesses (i.e. IV makes seals shrink, V makes them swell), and hitting the target VI, and then you have the left over as III.
Group III is also konwn as hydrocracked. IV is most commonly known as PAO (polyalphaolefin), and V is technically "other," but it de facto means the esters. There are many different types of esters that can be used. Motul's "di-ester" content means that two different esters are used in their base stocks. To my knowledge, Millers is the only one using a tri-ester. It makes it more expensive, but it makes the oil much better.
That said, there are oils out there that are made because they can market well. One very heavily marketed brand has a race oil that has tons of Group III in it, mixed with tons of VI improvers. I am highly confident of this because it has been shown to shear down VERY quickly, and it is recommended ot be changed very frequently. If it had lots of Group IV, it wouldn't shear down that quickly. But, high VI sells well, as does high ZDDP, so they'll make junk and market the crap out of it.
Many race oils have high detergent levels. The three I mentioned have about 2500ppm of CaSO4, which is the primary detergent. Again, that is Motul 300V, Millers CFS NT, and the Amsoil Dominator. On the Millers, its detergent pack is derived from its API SN detergent pack, which is an extended drain interval pack. I would assume the Motul and Amsoil is similar. They are all designed to handle endurance events. You'd NEVER do something like that in a low detergent pack oil such as a Gibbs (650ppm) or Valvoline Racing oil (also about 650ppm). Consequently, you can run the Millers, 300V, or Amsoil on the street for pretty long periods of time, several thousand miles. You'd never do that with some of the others. We ran Karl's 996 in World Challenge last year - 1700 race miles, 9 races over 5 weekends. On a single fill of oil, and at the end of the season, it was STILL in very good shape. We have a report of that on our website if you want to check it out. I am confident the other two I like would fare well, too, but I doubt they'd go that long without wear metals getting too high - the nanotechnology in the Millers has been shown to drastically cut wear. So I'm not sure why you thought it was a short pour oil, as it is most definately not!!!!
Not sure why you think it lacks a wide base of testing. The big difference between Millers and most of the others is that Millers is a much, much smaller company. Mobil 1 gives away more oil to the Grand Am series than Millers sells in the US (this is not speculation, it is based on conversations with teams, and obviously a knowledge of how much oil Millers sells in the US since it all goes through me). Millers just does not market much. Most of the efforts are technical partnerships such as the one with Bryan Herta, or just complimentary oil to a few teams. It has an extremely high percentage of staff devoted to D&R, and very few to marketing. It is used professionally in many more places than you realize. There are a great many 944 guys using it, as Racer's Edge (an affiliate) now uses it in its customer cars, Comat Motorsports (multiple 944 Cup Champ) in Canada is now a dealer, and another race shop in the midwest with many, many 944's under their care is now using Millers. I am actually heading to Mooresville, NC next Friday to take some oil to 1 team, a supplier of drivetrains to 15 teams, and possibly a second team. But again, don't confuse high levels of marketing efforts with high levels of testing. Unfortunately, I can't share some of the most advanced entities who have tested some of the products quite thoroughly. But I will say that there are examples out there where the Millers has been tested and used by professional teams who are sponsored by a competitor.
Sorry if htis turned into an infomercial. Again, tried to be objective, which is one of the reasons I endorsed a couple of other good oils. We've sponsored on and off, but most of the sponsorships are for companies with a broader scope than we have, so it isn't cost effective for us to be a permanent one. Not trying to cheat that, just clear up some misconceptions.
12-31-2013, 06:58 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I didn't want you to think I didn't see it. Thanks very much!
12-31-2013, 07:03 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
01-01-2014, 07:18 AM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Great info and sounds like you have a lot of faith in your product for all the right reasons. You use CFS NT in your race car but what would be your choice of Millers for a basically stock 952 ? Classic Mini Oil ?
Also I can't seem to find stockist down under, is it available here ?
cheers
Cyberpunky
Also I can't seem to find stockist down under, is it available here ?
cheers
Cyberpunky
01-01-2014, 01:01 PM
#13
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@67King
I've run Motul 300v 15w50 for more than 6 years in my car (after a full rebuilt). I noticed the drain interval must be quite short (3000 miles or one year) otherwise the oïl looks to lack its properties (becomes thinner and smells like an "used" oïl). So I can't share your opinion when you write "you can run the Millers, 300V, or Amsoil on the street for pretty long periods of time, several thousand miles".
As you're affiliated with Millers, can you confirm (and if possible prove that) the Millers NT can stand longer drain intervals ?
I've run Motul 300v 15w50 for more than 6 years in my car (after a full rebuilt). I noticed the drain interval must be quite short (3000 miles or one year) otherwise the oïl looks to lack its properties (becomes thinner and smells like an "used" oïl). So I can't share your opinion when you write "you can run the Millers, 300V, or Amsoil on the street for pretty long periods of time, several thousand miles".
As you're affiliated with Millers, can you confirm (and if possible prove that) the Millers NT can stand longer drain intervals ?
01-01-2014, 01:11 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
I use the Motul oil as it is locally available in Houston. It is a good oil but it has an obvious limited life. I use it in my race car so it is changed on a regular basis (20 hours max)
