Mobil 1 0w-40?
08-08-2013, 01:59 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Cold start-cold schmart...Where are all the broken down cars by the side of the road due to cold start issues that have been using 20/50w for 30+ years? What about the excessive wear and failures due to insuffient film strength at high rpms or stop go traffic among other causes?
08-11-2013, 02:09 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
does Australia have cold weather? maybe that works where you are but I tend to believe people with knowledge and data to back them up I don't think they have anything to gain if they say to use a lower ratio oil on a 25 year old car I just want mine to last 25 more
Mike
Mike
08-11-2013, 08:00 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Refer to #9 in this thread. Nobody is saying don't use the correct weight oil for your climate. Just don't kneejerk follow Mobil's advice as they don't care how much longer you have your car for.
08-12-2013, 06:43 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
I don't I went to redline's website and mobil and Porsche and Castrol and bmw and my local Ferrari race tech who also rebuilds Porsche motors on the side
08-12-2013, 07:37 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
No problems. Happy motoring.
08-12-2013, 02:59 PM
#37
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Does Australia have cold weather? The answer is: no, but this didnt stop my brother from calling a while ago from Sydney to tell me that it was 'freezing' and that he had had to turn on an oil filled radiator to warm up his bedroom because he was too cold to sleep.
It was 18° centrigrade in the middle of the night in Winter. Here, in England it was the middle of Summer and the middle of the day; and 18° centrigrade, so I put the phone down on the whining little bitch.
It was 18° centrigrade in the middle of the night in Winter. Here, in England it was the middle of Summer and the middle of the day; and 18° centrigrade, so I put the phone down on the whining little bitch.
08-12-2013, 07:19 PM
#39
Drifting
Some basic in the field observations over the last 35 or so years working on last century Porsche cars .
First of all }
Did we see worn-out cam lobes + hydraulic lifter faces, badly worn camchain sprockets( twin cam) , crankshaft thrustbearing wear , unusual excessive cylinder to piston wear , way too early valve guide wear in last century Porsche engines in cars sold to the public from the 1970's to the around 15 years or so ago and these cars just running on a decent quality 20w-50 and the oil changed say once a year or 10,000Kms ?
Answer = No
In fact the wear rate was so low( even a little wear) , we often thought Porsche engines would never wear out , in this I am talking about 944 2.5L , 944S 2.5L , 951 , 944S2 , 928 ( all ) , 911 ( all )
We even have some customers with the somewhat notorious 2.5L 944S ( twin cam 16V ) with well over 400,000 Kms with no wear at all with the cams or sprockets or even valve guides , the reason I mentioned that is because we took the head off the highest km customers 944S ( twin cam) in the last month ( first time ever ) , the cylinders were unmarked , no cam wear at all , no cam chain sprocket wear , even the valve guides were still in spec ( Ex ones only just ), this car just received new gaskets & seals ( old head gasket was rotted with old age) , new timing chain ( between cams & slipper guides).
This 944S I have known since new & has only ever been on a good quality 20w-50
Is this the same for last century Porsche's that have been on a low viscosity & low ZDDP so called synthetic oil , meaning Low Oil Film Strength Oil ?
Answer = No way in the world , the usual here is massive wear of the above components mentioned , often in less than 60,000Kms on switching , depending on how low the oil film strength is of the so called synthetic oil ( these are usually hydro-cracked crude oil & advertised as synthetic which is legal )
But Why ?
Answer = Emperor's New Clothes , meaning humans just love buying something that's hyped up without really knowing just what they have purchased
Did you notice the components mentioned above ( cam lobes etc ) all these components rely on oil film strength alone , meaning no oil pressure
How do we increase oil film strength in engine oils on this planet in this universe ?
Answer = A) Increase oil viscosity say from a 5w-40 to a 20w-50 ( with both oil with the same levels of ZDDP ) which often they do not
B) Increase ZDDP
If you take one away you decrease oil film strength
If you take both away you very very much reduce oil film strength( very rapid cam wear etc)
Now we go onto Vii's ( viscosity index improver's ) , these little gems are added to the oil to stretch out its intended viscosity , plus remember the more Vii's the greater the stretch & they start with the lowest number , so if its a 5w-50 , then its just a 5weight oil with a heap of Vii's added & remember Vii's are not a lubricant in their own right they are just an additive .
So if you keep the numbers a little tighter the less Vii's are needed ( 20w-50 ) for example
Oil companies have had a lot of issues with Vii's over the years , because if left too long in the sump , these little additives help accelerate turning a percentage of the oil into little hard little granules that block up the oil intake gauze = no oil pressure because of blocked oil intake ( seen when oil change interval is left too long
And yes there has been some good inroads into reducing this with some clever chemistry over the last few years but the fact remains there is a lot of Vii's that are not a lubricant in their own right , just more of an additive
Now we go onto oil pressure , measured with a workshop oil pressure gauge , if you install a 5w-50 into say a 968 & get it up to high core temp ( not rad temp ) engine core temp ( oil temp say 95 + deg cel) you will get a given idle oil pressure ( say 1.5bar )
Then you drain the oil & install a 20w-50 oil & repeat the test , you will see not 1.5bar but at least .4 of a bar higher ( 1.9 bar )
The reason is the 5w-50 is not really a 50 its just a rounding off of a number , so a 5w-50 will actually be closer to a 5w-45 , as the 5w-50 gets older ( many heat cycles later) it drops even further
Same goes for the 20w-50 , but with less Vii's its more closer to the 50 ( say 20w-49 )
So what I am getting at is the cold start furthy is more of a myth in these last century Porsche engines , the real wear is engine hot where oil film strength is very criticle ( metal to metal contact) , particularly with these high loaded flat tappet designed last century Porsche engines
The other thing of interest is oil to the top end ( engine cold ) and cranking , try it you're self as I have done
944S2 / 968 , twin cam camcover off , engine oil 20w-50 ( as per owners manual ) ambient temp 7 deg cel ( mid winter first thing in morning)
First thing noticed ( before cranking) is that cam lobes are still covered with a film of oil , same goes for the lifter faces , yet the engine has not run for several days ( this is much less the case for a 0w-40 which is only natural because its extremely thin hot)
Crank engine = oil spraying everywhere before engine even fires up( what a mess) , so much for the Molasses comment which only comes from people who do not know , they just guess or just spread non truths for whatever agenda ( maybe that are a rep for that oil company ?)
Last but not least , the 944/951/968 series oil pressure relief valve opens around 5+ bar of pressure , so like the humble 924 Porsche which had a 0-10 bar oil pressure gauge , so should the 944951/968 as well , because the max 5 bar reading is not the max at all, its just showing part of the oil pressure being made , which leads me to the conrod bearings , No 2 conrod bearing in the 944 / 951 / 968 are at risk to damage from low oil pressure , the simplest way to get around this issue is to go as high as viscosity ( high oil pressure) to reduce / stop the oil bubbles forming in the pressure circuit ,that's why we do not loose engines to this issue , but on low vis oil with high oil temp its a problem at full power with these last century Porsche engines
But like I said , no complaints from me , the work just keeps pouring in from the use of low vis , low oil film strength oils in last century Porsche's, meaning viscosities that are out of the range that is printed by Porsche in the owners manual in the multi grade" look at me section" ( I hope it continues ) at least no one can say , we didn't warn owners of this
Regards
Bruce
First of all }
Did we see worn-out cam lobes + hydraulic lifter faces, badly worn camchain sprockets( twin cam) , crankshaft thrustbearing wear , unusual excessive cylinder to piston wear , way too early valve guide wear in last century Porsche engines in cars sold to the public from the 1970's to the around 15 years or so ago and these cars just running on a decent quality 20w-50 and the oil changed say once a year or 10,000Kms ?
Answer = No
In fact the wear rate was so low( even a little wear) , we often thought Porsche engines would never wear out , in this I am talking about 944 2.5L , 944S 2.5L , 951 , 944S2 , 928 ( all ) , 911 ( all )
We even have some customers with the somewhat notorious 2.5L 944S ( twin cam 16V ) with well over 400,000 Kms with no wear at all with the cams or sprockets or even valve guides , the reason I mentioned that is because we took the head off the highest km customers 944S ( twin cam) in the last month ( first time ever ) , the cylinders were unmarked , no cam wear at all , no cam chain sprocket wear , even the valve guides were still in spec ( Ex ones only just ), this car just received new gaskets & seals ( old head gasket was rotted with old age) , new timing chain ( between cams & slipper guides).
This 944S I have known since new & has only ever been on a good quality 20w-50
Is this the same for last century Porsche's that have been on a low viscosity & low ZDDP so called synthetic oil , meaning Low Oil Film Strength Oil ?
Answer = No way in the world , the usual here is massive wear of the above components mentioned , often in less than 60,000Kms on switching , depending on how low the oil film strength is of the so called synthetic oil ( these are usually hydro-cracked crude oil & advertised as synthetic which is legal )
But Why ?
Answer = Emperor's New Clothes , meaning humans just love buying something that's hyped up without really knowing just what they have purchased
Did you notice the components mentioned above ( cam lobes etc ) all these components rely on oil film strength alone , meaning no oil pressure
How do we increase oil film strength in engine oils on this planet in this universe ?
Answer = A) Increase oil viscosity say from a 5w-40 to a 20w-50 ( with both oil with the same levels of ZDDP ) which often they do not
B) Increase ZDDP
If you take one away you decrease oil film strength
If you take both away you very very much reduce oil film strength( very rapid cam wear etc)
Now we go onto Vii's ( viscosity index improver's ) , these little gems are added to the oil to stretch out its intended viscosity , plus remember the more Vii's the greater the stretch & they start with the lowest number , so if its a 5w-50 , then its just a 5weight oil with a heap of Vii's added & remember Vii's are not a lubricant in their own right they are just an additive .
So if you keep the numbers a little tighter the less Vii's are needed ( 20w-50 ) for example
Oil companies have had a lot of issues with Vii's over the years , because if left too long in the sump , these little additives help accelerate turning a percentage of the oil into little hard little granules that block up the oil intake gauze = no oil pressure because of blocked oil intake ( seen when oil change interval is left too long
And yes there has been some good inroads into reducing this with some clever chemistry over the last few years but the fact remains there is a lot of Vii's that are not a lubricant in their own right , just more of an additive
Now we go onto oil pressure , measured with a workshop oil pressure gauge , if you install a 5w-50 into say a 968 & get it up to high core temp ( not rad temp ) engine core temp ( oil temp say 95 + deg cel) you will get a given idle oil pressure ( say 1.5bar )
Then you drain the oil & install a 20w-50 oil & repeat the test , you will see not 1.5bar but at least .4 of a bar higher ( 1.9 bar )
The reason is the 5w-50 is not really a 50 its just a rounding off of a number , so a 5w-50 will actually be closer to a 5w-45 , as the 5w-50 gets older ( many heat cycles later) it drops even further
Same goes for the 20w-50 , but with less Vii's its more closer to the 50 ( say 20w-49 )
So what I am getting at is the cold start furthy is more of a myth in these last century Porsche engines , the real wear is engine hot where oil film strength is very criticle ( metal to metal contact) , particularly with these high loaded flat tappet designed last century Porsche engines
The other thing of interest is oil to the top end ( engine cold ) and cranking , try it you're self as I have done
944S2 / 968 , twin cam camcover off , engine oil 20w-50 ( as per owners manual ) ambient temp 7 deg cel ( mid winter first thing in morning)
First thing noticed ( before cranking) is that cam lobes are still covered with a film of oil , same goes for the lifter faces , yet the engine has not run for several days ( this is much less the case for a 0w-40 which is only natural because its extremely thin hot)
Crank engine = oil spraying everywhere before engine even fires up( what a mess) , so much for the Molasses comment which only comes from people who do not know , they just guess or just spread non truths for whatever agenda ( maybe that are a rep for that oil company ?)
Last but not least , the 944/951/968 series oil pressure relief valve opens around 5+ bar of pressure , so like the humble 924 Porsche which had a 0-10 bar oil pressure gauge , so should the 944951/968 as well , because the max 5 bar reading is not the max at all, its just showing part of the oil pressure being made , which leads me to the conrod bearings , No 2 conrod bearing in the 944 / 951 / 968 are at risk to damage from low oil pressure , the simplest way to get around this issue is to go as high as viscosity ( high oil pressure) to reduce / stop the oil bubbles forming in the pressure circuit ,that's why we do not loose engines to this issue , but on low vis oil with high oil temp its a problem at full power with these last century Porsche engines
But like I said , no complaints from me , the work just keeps pouring in from the use of low vis , low oil film strength oils in last century Porsche's, meaning viscosities that are out of the range that is printed by Porsche in the owners manual in the multi grade" look at me section" ( I hope it continues ) at least no one can say , we didn't warn owners of this
Regards
Bruce
08-12-2013, 07:42 PM
#40
Drifting
Does Australia have cold weather? The answer is: no, but this didnt stop my brother from calling a while ago from Sydney to tell me that it was 'freezing' and that he had had to turn on an oil filled radiator to warm up his bedroom because he was too cold to sleep.
It was 18° centrigrade in the middle of the night in Winter. Here, in England it was the middle of Summer and the middle of the day; and 18° centrigrade, so I put the phone down on the whining little bitch.
It was 18° centrigrade in the middle of the night in Winter. Here, in England it was the middle of Summer and the middle of the day; and 18° centrigrade, so I put the phone down on the whining little bitch.
Oil weight of 20W50 will service and work efficiently between the temperature range of -10 degrees to exceeding and beyond 40+ Degrees Celsius (thats 14f to exceeding and beyond 104)
08-12-2013, 07:54 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
JET951 has the best info on this. Nothing beats real world experience across multiple vehicles with before and after condition assessments.
Having said that, here's what I'm running: http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/prod12...rsport---5LTR/
Higher HTHS and more ZDDP than the Mobil 1 5W50 I was running.
Having said that, here's what I'm running: http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/prod12...rsport---5LTR/
Higher HTHS and more ZDDP than the Mobil 1 5W50 I was running.
08-12-2013, 07:56 PM
#42
Intermediate
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Youve missed the humour I think Bruce . It is fair to say that nowwhere in Aus gets really cold though, particularly when you see where the fellow asking the question comes from (not the coldest part of NA, but cold enough in Winter).
. It is fair to say that nowwhere in Aus gets really cold though, particularly when you see where the fellow asking the question comes from (not the coldest part of NA, but cold enough in Winter).
08-13-2013, 01:40 AM
#43
Excellent post Bruce... always good to have the real life experience. From what I understand film strength and viscosity is particularly important for the rod bearing issue as the oil is compressed and "forced out" at the start of the power stroke as the piston and rod assembly pushes down on the crank.
What do you think about this Nulon Oil...
http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Pre.../#.Ugm0eZIzO-E
It's 25W-60 with 1400 ppm zinc and also has Molybdenum Dithiocarbamate for additional high level wear protection and performance.
What do you think about this Nulon Oil...
http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Pre.../#.Ugm0eZIzO-E
It's 25W-60 with 1400 ppm zinc and also has Molybdenum Dithiocarbamate for additional high level wear protection and performance.
08-13-2013, 03:59 AM
#44
Drifting
The Nulon 25w-60 street/track oil is a great oil for these last century Porsche's & particularly the turbo charged Porsche's from last century & a very good club track oil
