Noob needs advice on timing/balance shaft belt replacement
01-14-2013, 01:11 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Noob needs advice on timing/balance shaft belt replacement
I need to do the timing belt, balance shaft belt replacement. I'm a noob and could use any all advice I can get. I did pull off enough stuff this weekend to get the cover off and have a look at the belts. They both look to be in pretty good condition, however the previous owner (I bought it in October - '87 951, 58,000 miles) had very sketchy maint records. The belts probably have less than 20K miles, but I think they may be up to 10 yrs old - so regardless, I want to change them ASAP. I did notice that the timing belt seems to be a little looser than I thought it should be, so that's a little concerning as well.
I do see the metal guide bar on the water pump. Question - did the '87 have the upgraded water pump from the factory, or does the fact that it has the guard indicate that it was upgraded at some point? I did find a receipt for a water pump in the records I was given - so I think it was replaced when the belts were replaced. If the rollers and water pump have less than 20K miles, should I roll with ‘em? What should I do to check condition while I’m in there?
I've read just about everything I've been able to find on doing this job myself - Clarke's garage, etc, and I've watched some youtube videos that I found at "944foot2thefloor" website - pretty good actually. I did get the Haynes manual, but I don't have the service manuals. Should I get them too?
I’m also considering going with the Kevlar belts – is it worth the extra money? Will they last longer – ie would you recommend going beyond the 30-40K miles and 3-4 yrs with those belts.
Any other advice or questions from anyone that has done this?
Overall, I think the car is in pretty good condition and it looks really good inside and out and pretty much bone stock except for side view mirrors, door handles, an Authority chip (I haven’t actually pulled the DME board to see what’s really there, but PO told me it was) and the little red/blue device tubed into the banjo bolt - what exactly does that do? Has had upgraded dash lighting installed and may have had headlight upgrade – not sure how to tell. Also an upgraded radio and wiring for a subwoofer, but the sub was removed because it was blown There's only a couple of things that I've found that don't work - A/C fan does not work on position 1 - works fine on 2, 3 and 4. Also, when I retract the sun roof, the little retractors don't stop in the locked position, but continue down to the remove position. Neither of these is a big deal, but maybe I'll try to fix them someday - 1st priority is the belts.
I do see the metal guide bar on the water pump. Question - did the '87 have the upgraded water pump from the factory, or does the fact that it has the guard indicate that it was upgraded at some point? I did find a receipt for a water pump in the records I was given - so I think it was replaced when the belts were replaced. If the rollers and water pump have less than 20K miles, should I roll with ‘em? What should I do to check condition while I’m in there?
I've read just about everything I've been able to find on doing this job myself - Clarke's garage, etc, and I've watched some youtube videos that I found at "944foot2thefloor" website - pretty good actually. I did get the Haynes manual, but I don't have the service manuals. Should I get them too?
I’m also considering going with the Kevlar belts – is it worth the extra money? Will they last longer – ie would you recommend going beyond the 30-40K miles and 3-4 yrs with those belts.
Any other advice or questions from anyone that has done this?
Overall, I think the car is in pretty good condition and it looks really good inside and out and pretty much bone stock except for side view mirrors, door handles, an Authority chip (I haven’t actually pulled the DME board to see what’s really there, but PO told me it was) and the little red/blue device tubed into the banjo bolt - what exactly does that do? Has had upgraded dash lighting installed and may have had headlight upgrade – not sure how to tell. Also an upgraded radio and wiring for a subwoofer, but the sub was removed because it was blown There's only a couple of things that I've found that don't work - A/C fan does not work on position 1 - works fine on 2, 3 and 4. Also, when I retract the sun roof, the little retractors don't stop in the locked position, but continue down to the remove position. Neither of these is a big deal, but maybe I'll try to fix them someday - 1st priority is the belts.
01-14-2013, 03:10 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
87's+ were updated from factory.
Its not too difficult of a job. Doing the water pump as well however adds a lot to the job. One thing youll run into when putting on the new TB is on the bottom side of the crank, its extremely difficult to get the belt in between the cover and the teeth. I ended up deliberately breaking off a piece of the cover on the bottom so the belt can slide in easier. Make sure to get that piece outta there if you do that.
Make sure the TDC (3 of them) all lign up before taking off the old belt. I usually end up cutting the belt off once everythings ligned up. Saves a bit of time and effort pulling it outta there.
When putting the new belt on, if you dont use a flywheel lock, youll wind up having to offset the crank a few teeth. Once the belt goes on, the crank will have rotated back to where it should be if done right. Its kind od a trial and error thing, so its easier to just usr a lock instead.
Its not too difficult of a job. Doing the water pump as well however adds a lot to the job. One thing youll run into when putting on the new TB is on the bottom side of the crank, its extremely difficult to get the belt in between the cover and the teeth. I ended up deliberately breaking off a piece of the cover on the bottom so the belt can slide in easier. Make sure to get that piece outta there if you do that.
Make sure the TDC (3 of them) all lign up before taking off the old belt. I usually end up cutting the belt off once everythings ligned up. Saves a bit of time and effort pulling it outta there.
When putting the new belt on, if you dont use a flywheel lock, youll wind up having to offset the crank a few teeth. Once the belt goes on, the crank will have rotated back to where it should be if done right. Its kind od a trial and error thing, so its easier to just usr a lock instead.
01-14-2013, 03:18 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Black51 - I was wondering if I should try this without the lock. I think I'll just go ahead and install the lock after finding TDC.
01-14-2013, 06:46 PM
#6
Instructor
I just did mine with kevlar, I figure it couldn't hurt especially since the odometer is currently broken haha... what I did was remove the auto tensioner, cleaned it and exercised it quite a bit (was kinda stuck at first) then when it was back on the car turned the crank by hand a couple of times back to TDC. Then I checked the tension with the arnnworx tool. It was right on the money.
01-15-2013, 02:35 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Miragezero - ever have any work done by Autosport of Florida there in Jacksonville, I guess they also go by Broadfoot racing.
http://www.broadfootracing.com/
http://www.broadfootracing.com/
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01-15-2013, 12:06 PM
#9
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Here are some comments from someone who did this for the first time after letting the shop do it the first couple of times. I had oil leaks in the front end, so I needed to do the leaking front seals after doing the clutch (the age of vehicle and cost of clutch at the shop convinced me to tackle it myself.)
1. I had to get to the oil gear and needed to remove the crankshaft bolt so I needed a flywheel lock. I made my lock. I happened to have something that was close to fitting the teeth. IIRC, the piece I had on hand was a 1" lathe turned cylinder made up of adjacent spaced fins - each fin about 1/8" wide and separated by 1/8" from the adjacent fin. Some minor filing on this object let it fit the teeth on the fly wheel. A bar that clamped across where the starter clamped and some L-shaped offsets to hold it the "finned cylinder" away from the bar (and into the starter opening to engage the flywheel teeth) made it work fine.
2. I once let my belt change go 90K miles - then let the shop do it. Another time I went 60K miles. I was intimidated about working on the 951, although I did all the work or my other cars. I shouldn't have been intimidated. It's not hard.
3. My '86 had the guide on the WP when I did my first belt change - added during the earlier shop WP replacement.
4. I did not replace the water pump when I did the belt change and front seals (at 45K miles). It was a mistake. I had to go in again and replace the leaking WP about 1500 miles later. I also did not change the balance shaft sleeves. That was also a mistake - one began to leak oil. Fortunately, I did the sleeve, the WP and retightened the belt all in one job, so killed several birds at the same time. I needed to go in anyway for the 1500 mile belt retighten job.
5. I used the belt twist and water pump pulley slip methods to adjust belt tension. The cricket like device had reports of inaccuracy and the other devices were expensive. I've done the belts three times now, with no troubles. There were some YouTube videos on belt adjustment that helped me get over my nerves the first time.
6. The hard part for me was when the 3mm allen set screw on the rotor froze up. I had to slot it with a Dremel to get it out.
Go slow and read the Clarks Garage stuff carefully. I was a noob and had no real trouble.
I've slowly been fixing other minor things that have brought my 300K mile 951 back to the point where it's a joy to use as my daily diver again. The repaired shattered clock, repaired center console hinge, repaired glove box supports, new thrust bearings on the shifter (fantastic to feel that tight shifting again!) and the VW sun shade clip fix are all little things, but they've made it feel like new now that the clutch, oil leaks and power steering hose leaks are all fixed.
1. I had to get to the oil gear and needed to remove the crankshaft bolt so I needed a flywheel lock. I made my lock. I happened to have something that was close to fitting the teeth. IIRC, the piece I had on hand was a 1" lathe turned cylinder made up of adjacent spaced fins - each fin about 1/8" wide and separated by 1/8" from the adjacent fin. Some minor filing on this object let it fit the teeth on the fly wheel. A bar that clamped across where the starter clamped and some L-shaped offsets to hold it the "finned cylinder" away from the bar (and into the starter opening to engage the flywheel teeth) made it work fine.
2. I once let my belt change go 90K miles - then let the shop do it. Another time I went 60K miles. I was intimidated about working on the 951, although I did all the work or my other cars. I shouldn't have been intimidated. It's not hard.
3. My '86 had the guide on the WP when I did my first belt change - added during the earlier shop WP replacement.
4. I did not replace the water pump when I did the belt change and front seals (at 45K miles). It was a mistake. I had to go in again and replace the leaking WP about 1500 miles later. I also did not change the balance shaft sleeves. That was also a mistake - one began to leak oil. Fortunately, I did the sleeve, the WP and retightened the belt all in one job, so killed several birds at the same time. I needed to go in anyway for the 1500 mile belt retighten job.
5. I used the belt twist and water pump pulley slip methods to adjust belt tension. The cricket like device had reports of inaccuracy and the other devices were expensive. I've done the belts three times now, with no troubles. There were some YouTube videos on belt adjustment that helped me get over my nerves the first time.
6. The hard part for me was when the 3mm allen set screw on the rotor froze up. I had to slot it with a Dremel to get it out.
Go slow and read the Clarks Garage stuff carefully. I was a noob and had no real trouble.
I've slowly been fixing other minor things that have brought my 300K mile 951 back to the point where it's a joy to use as my daily diver again. The repaired shattered clock, repaired center console hinge, repaired glove box supports, new thrust bearings on the shifter (fantastic to feel that tight shifting again!) and the VW sun shade clip fix are all little things, but they've made it feel like new now that the clutch, oil leaks and power steering hose leaks are all fixed.
01-15-2013, 12:24 PM
#10
Here are some comments from someone who did this for the first time after letting the shop do it the first couple of times. I had oil leaks in the front end, so I needed to do the leaking front seals after doing the clutch (the age of vehicle and cost of clutch at the shop convinced me to tackle it myself.)
1. I had to get to the oil gear and needed to remove the crankshaft bolt so I needed a flywheel lock. I made my lock. I happened to have something that was close to fitting the teeth. IIRC, the piece I had on hand was a 1" lathe turned cylinder made up of adjacent spaced fins - each fin about 1/8" wide and separated by 1/8" from the adjacent fin. Some minor filing on this object let it fit the teeth on the fly wheel. A bar that clamped across where the starter clamped and some L-shaped offsets to hold it the "finned cylinder" away from the bar (and into the starter opening to engage the flywheel teeth) made it work fine.
2. I once let my belt change go 90K miles - then let the shop do it. Another time I went 60K miles. I was intimidated about working on the 951, although I did all the work or my other cars. I shouldn't have been intimidated. It's not hard.
3. My '86 had the guide on the WP when I did my first belt change - added during the earlier shop WP replacement.
4. I did not replace the water pump when I did the belt change and front seals (at 45K miles). It was a mistake. I had to go in again and replace the leaking WP about 1500 miles later. I also did not change the balance shaft sleeves. That was also a mistake - one began to leak oil. Fortunately, I did the sleeve, the WP and retightened the belt all in one job, so killed several birds at the same time. I needed to go in anyway for the 1500 mile belt retighten job.
5. I used the belt twist and water pump pulley slip methods to adjust belt tension. The cricket like device had reports of inaccuracy and the other devices were expensive. I've done the belts three times now, with no troubles. There were some YouTube videos on belt adjustment that helped me get over my nerves the first time.
6. The hard part for me was when the 3mm allen set screw on the rotor froze up. I had to slot it with a Dremel to get it out.
Go slow and read the Clarks Garage stuff carefully. I was a noob and had no real trouble.
I've slowly been fixing other minor things that have brought my 300K mile 951 back to the point where it's a joy to use as my daily diver again. The repaired shattered clock, repaired center console hinge, repaired glove box supports, new thrust bearings on the shifter (fantastic to feel that tight shifting again!) and the VW sun shade clip fix are all little things, but they've made it feel like new now that the clutch, oil leaks and power steering hose leaks are all fixed.
1. I had to get to the oil gear and needed to remove the crankshaft bolt so I needed a flywheel lock. I made my lock. I happened to have something that was close to fitting the teeth. IIRC, the piece I had on hand was a 1" lathe turned cylinder made up of adjacent spaced fins - each fin about 1/8" wide and separated by 1/8" from the adjacent fin. Some minor filing on this object let it fit the teeth on the fly wheel. A bar that clamped across where the starter clamped and some L-shaped offsets to hold it the "finned cylinder" away from the bar (and into the starter opening to engage the flywheel teeth) made it work fine.
2. I once let my belt change go 90K miles - then let the shop do it. Another time I went 60K miles. I was intimidated about working on the 951, although I did all the work or my other cars. I shouldn't have been intimidated. It's not hard.
3. My '86 had the guide on the WP when I did my first belt change - added during the earlier shop WP replacement.
4. I did not replace the water pump when I did the belt change and front seals (at 45K miles). It was a mistake. I had to go in again and replace the leaking WP about 1500 miles later. I also did not change the balance shaft sleeves. That was also a mistake - one began to leak oil. Fortunately, I did the sleeve, the WP and retightened the belt all in one job, so killed several birds at the same time. I needed to go in anyway for the 1500 mile belt retighten job.
5. I used the belt twist and water pump pulley slip methods to adjust belt tension. The cricket like device had reports of inaccuracy and the other devices were expensive. I've done the belts three times now, with no troubles. There were some YouTube videos on belt adjustment that helped me get over my nerves the first time.
6. The hard part for me was when the 3mm allen set screw on the rotor froze up. I had to slot it with a Dremel to get it out.
Go slow and read the Clarks Garage stuff carefully. I was a noob and had no real trouble.
I've slowly been fixing other minor things that have brought my 300K mile 951 back to the point where it's a joy to use as my daily diver again. The repaired shattered clock, repaired center console hinge, repaired glove box supports, new thrust bearings on the shifter (fantastic to feel that tight shifting again!) and the VW sun shade clip fix are all little things, but they've made it feel like new now that the clutch, oil leaks and power steering hose leaks are all fixed.
01-15-2013, 02:20 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Turbo17 for the positive encouragement. I sure would like to hear more or know where to go to find our more about the belt twist and water pump pulley slip methods to adjust belt tension. I haven't run across that yet. I have heard of the kricket.
Also would like to hear more about the new thrust bearings on the shifter. I've never heard of that. I think I have some slighlty noisy torque tube bearings and would eventually like to tackle replacing those, and I'm not very satisfied with the shifting on my car - seems to hang up a bit, especially when going from 1st to 2nd gear. I've been thinking this is worn syncros or just worn/abused gears - I'm really not sure how to tackle it.
Also would like to hear more about the new thrust bearings on the shifter. I've never heard of that. I think I have some slighlty noisy torque tube bearings and would eventually like to tackle replacing those, and I'm not very satisfied with the shifting on my car - seems to hang up a bit, especially when going from 1st to 2nd gear. I've been thinking this is worn syncros or just worn/abused gears - I'm really not sure how to tackle it.
01-15-2013, 03:10 PM
#12
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The twist method is basically twisting the balance belt 180 degrees and the timing belt 90 degrees. I spent some time checking out the tension on the old before removing it by squeezing it, seeing how much force it took to move it close to the metal shield on the water pump, etc. so I knew what it was like. I also "twanged" it several times to get a feel for the sound. I listened to the comments in several videos and did lots of research.
The other method discussed is that it should just barely be possible to turn the water pump pulley relative to the belt with clean hands and no oil on that pulley. I used a bit of all the methods. Others here have far more experience, and I suspect some will strongly recommend using the factory tension gauge, but it just wasn't an option for me.
Also would like to hear more about the new thrust bearings on the shifter. I've never heard of that.
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...t-linkage.html
I had to install the bolt reversed from what is shown there. I put the head on the right/passenger side to get a bit more clearance. This was an easy repair and made a huge difference. The shaft was so worn out that the C-clip would no longer stay on and the C-clip groove had almost disappeared.
Only the two thrust bearings at the shift lever needed to be added for me. There seems to be no remaining slop,so I never needed to consider doing anything with the linkage back at the transaxle, which is also discussed in that thread. I bought the two bearings and the four washers listed in that thread and found the bolt and nut locally.
I think I have some slighlty noisy torque tube bearings and would eventually like to tackle replacing those, and I'm not very satisfied with the shifting on my car - seems to hang up a bit, especially when going from 1st to 2nd gear. I've been thinking this is worn syncros or just worn/abused gears - I'm really not sure how to tackle it.
I'm sure you can find the posts if you search. My shifting has always remained smooth (knock on wood). I had the transaxle out for the clutch job, but all I did was clean it and replace fluid.
As a new owner, I'd strongly recommend checking the fuel lines. They tend to crack over time and they carry fuel at 50psi IIRC. and there have been some fires. There are lots of threads on that subject. I think timing belt and fuel lines are probably the most important things to check.
(If you have to do the fuel line job and decide to go with Rennbay, let me know. I have an extra Rennbay fuel line kit '85.5-'89. I accidentally ended up with two. Feel free to PM me. )
01-15-2013, 03:22 PM
#13
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BTW, I still haven't purchased the thin offset wrenches used when setting belt tension. I've got a a pretty limited budget. I've got an old British adjustable "spanner" that I've used, but it's really awkward and a bit too thick. If you think you'll have to do the belt job more than once, those offset wrenches are probably worth the cost, even for a skinflint like me. I keep telling myself I'll buy (or make) those wrenches as it will make the job easier.
01-15-2013, 05:58 PM
#14
Instructor
No, Broadfoot is Phase III of my big plan; I am currently at the end of Phase I. I am taking my time and learning a lot (which also helps with coming up with the funds ((ie- hiding costs from the queen)) for excellent parts). A garage computer is a must; we are fortunate to have a LOT of help on the web. I watch videos then pause them, perform the step, then proceed.
Miragezero - ever have any work done by Autosport of Florida there in Jacksonville, I guess they also go by Broadfoot racing.
http://www.broadfootracing.com/
http://www.broadfootracing.com/
01-21-2013, 01:07 PM
#15
Is it necessary to change the rollers and gears too? Pelican parts sells the belts and rollers as a kit. Just seems too pricey and unnecessary and I might just get the belts. Anybody use the ArnnWorx 920Xv6 tool?
