Front suspension upgrade for Porsche 944/968
12-11-2012, 12:09 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
• E92 M3 Front
- Part number Left: 34112283385 (until 01/2010)
- Part number Left: 34112283801 (after 01/2010)
- Part number Right: 34112283386 (until 01/2010)
- Part number Right: 34112283802 (after 01/2010)
- outside diameter: 360.0 mm (14.17")
- annulus diameter: 234.0 mm (9.21")
- face width: 63.0 mm (2.48")
- overall depth: 63.0 mm (2.48")
- initial disc thickness: 30.0 mm (1.18")
- discard thickness: 28.4 mm (1.12")
- bore diameter: 79.0 mm (3.11")
- hub to center disc distance: 48.0 mm (1.89")
- lug spacing: 5 x 120 mm
- internal hub clearance: ~182 mm (7.17") (tapered)
- mass: ~10.32 kg
- weight: ~22.7 lbs
- Part number Left: 34112283385 (until 01/2010)
- Part number Left: 34112283801 (after 01/2010)
- Part number Right: 34112283386 (until 01/2010)
- Part number Right: 34112283802 (after 01/2010)
- outside diameter: 360.0 mm (14.17")
- annulus diameter: 234.0 mm (9.21")
- face width: 63.0 mm (2.48")
- overall depth: 63.0 mm (2.48")
- initial disc thickness: 30.0 mm (1.18")
- discard thickness: 28.4 mm (1.12")
- bore diameter: 79.0 mm (3.11")
- hub to center disc distance: 48.0 mm (1.89")
- lug spacing: 5 x 120 mm
- internal hub clearance: ~182 mm (7.17") (tapered)
- mass: ~10.32 kg
- weight: ~22.7 lbs
12-11-2012, 12:22 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
Sorry, not sure where I read 330mm. I'd like to fit Cup rotors. Looks possible? Think they go up to 380x32mm.
12-11-2012, 12:30 AM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Possible? Guess so... but not without caliper adapters.
I'm gonna stick with stock 360mm (should fit inside the Enkei's)
Cheers,
Mike
I'm gonna stick with stock 360mm (should fit inside the Enkei's)
Cheers,
Mike
12-11-2012, 01:42 AM
#19
Rennlist Junkie Forever
I have seen pics of broken hubs, but again, never had a properly maintained one fail on our cars....Sebring, Daytona....tracks with a lot of elevation and off camber, Hallet, TWS....our home track is the notoriously bumpy Circuit Grand Bayou (formerly NPR)....one of our cars has 3 4/500 mile enduro races on top of tons of track miles all over the country, still, never lost a hub or a-arm.
And 944S2 brakes are undersized.....?
Come off a bank at 170+mph and late brake a 996/997 Cup Car to 35mph with big sticky tires and you'll know real fast how tiny those brakes are.
S2 brakes are great for street cars and weekend fun track days. They are no where near whats needed for competitive racing.
Your ultimate braking traction is limited by the size/grip of the tire and S2/944T brakes will bump the ABS or lock a tire at a whim....anything more is overkill unless you want to address cooling, and that, again, will only be necessary on the track. If you are causing fade and overheating on S2 brakes on the street, you are either one bad dude, or live in a gated community with direct track access from your driveway to Nurburgring.
Braking is EVERYTHING on the race track. It's more important than everything else. It's where the races are won.
Simply being able to abruptly lock the brakes doesn't mean that the brakes are strong enough for racing. Far from it.
A simple lock of the tires doesn't address brake modulation or the the thermo capacity of the braking system.
I suggest you go race against some fast GT3's or Cup Cars..... they will... in real short order... show you what braking is all about.
If you are breaking the parts you mentioned or having trouble with the brakes on an S2 on the street, you need to get on the race track.
As far as being "low stress" on the duty of our cars, one has an overall win in the aforementioned LA400 and my son holds the track record for 944s at Texas World and 944/NASA PTD at both NOLA 1.8 and 2,4 mile configurations.
T
I will say...... in defense of small brakes (951, S2, even M030 and 993TT).... there's something to be said for less unsprung weight. That said... if you're not in a fast enough/heavy enough car to need really big brakes... the really big brakes are not only a waste of money.. they will slow you down due to the extra unsprung weight.
TonyG
Last edited by TonyG; 12-11-2012 at 02:07 AM.
12-11-2012, 02:54 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
12-11-2012, 03:14 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
True. Lexus PCD is same as Ford so should be some disc options there as well.
If I was going for 380mm rotors then the Cadillac CTS-V calipers would fit (I have a set...)
Tony, thanks for your comments as well.
I'll have some photos of suspension parts to post tomorrow.
Cheers,
Mike
If I was going for 380mm rotors then the Cadillac CTS-V calipers would fit (I have a set...)
Tony, thanks for your comments as well.
I'll have some photos of suspension parts to post tomorrow.
Cheers,
Mike
12-11-2012, 01:14 PM
#22
Race Car
Uhm Tony, keep it in perspective dude.
You are making my point for me.
1) you aren't going to get a 944S2 up to 170 on any banking broken up by a "roval" track design anywhere in the US of A.
2) OP's car is a street car so adding "400 hp and reporting back" is about as moot a point as I can think of.
Rereading my post, I don't see any problems with context, so I can only guess that you had a problem comprehending the part where I said that I have seen pics of failed hubs. The point I was making is that on two seriously tracked 944s (I have owned a 944 variant of one or the other since 1990, i.e. 22 years), I have never personally seen a broken hub on any of our current cars.
One of the two, has so much track time that it carries 4 completed log books with races everywhere in the US except the west coat and 1 full season powered by a 968 engine in GT3.
And yes, properly "maintaining" wheel bearings and bearing preload is part of regular maintenance on a tapered roller bearing like 944 hubs have.
There is also a correct method for changing bearing races, I can't speak to the failures you have seen but in servicing these cars over the years, I have seen punch and chisel gouges in the hub bores from previous work that could have led to deepened cracking, etc. which caused ultimate failures. Remember, we are talking about owners/mechanics that post questions like "how do I take off my oil filter", etc.
Back on topic...., have you seen any a-arms or hubs break on a factory powered street car that wasn't driven off road or through a foot deep pothole...?
How many acquaintances do you know that complain about insufficient braking on a stock powered 944S2...?
With respect for the OP, I'll bow out of this one and encourage him to carry on making his S2 suspension "upgrades".
T
You are making my point for me.
1) you aren't going to get a 944S2 up to 170 on any banking broken up by a "roval" track design anywhere in the US of A.
2) OP's car is a street car so adding "400 hp and reporting back" is about as moot a point as I can think of.
Rereading my post, I don't see any problems with context, so I can only guess that you had a problem comprehending the part where I said that I have seen pics of failed hubs. The point I was making is that on two seriously tracked 944s (I have owned a 944 variant of one or the other since 1990, i.e. 22 years), I have never personally seen a broken hub on any of our current cars.
One of the two, has so much track time that it carries 4 completed log books with races everywhere in the US except the west coat and 1 full season powered by a 968 engine in GT3.
And yes, properly "maintaining" wheel bearings and bearing preload is part of regular maintenance on a tapered roller bearing like 944 hubs have.
There is also a correct method for changing bearing races, I can't speak to the failures you have seen but in servicing these cars over the years, I have seen punch and chisel gouges in the hub bores from previous work that could have led to deepened cracking, etc. which caused ultimate failures. Remember, we are talking about owners/mechanics that post questions like "how do I take off my oil filter", etc.
Back on topic...., have you seen any a-arms or hubs break on a factory powered street car that wasn't driven off road or through a foot deep pothole...?
How many acquaintances do you know that complain about insufficient braking on a stock powered 944S2...?
With respect for the OP, I'll bow out of this one and encourage him to carry on making his S2 suspension "upgrades".
T
12-11-2012, 01:25 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Mike -- keep it up. I like it when people say "Hey, what if..." and "Ah hell, why not". I love this sort of stuff.
Have you considered moving away from a Mac Strut altogether? Personally, if I were going to be looking for a cost-almost-no-object approach to fixing the front suspension, I would go with some kind of multilink or dual A-arm.
An additional word of advice is to not neglect the rear suspension. I've seen many-a-purpose-built car be built around the front suspension with little regard to how it ties into the rear. If the front isn't built appropriately for the rear suspension, you may end up with an inferior performing car.
Have you considered moving away from a Mac Strut altogether? Personally, if I were going to be looking for a cost-almost-no-object approach to fixing the front suspension, I would go with some kind of multilink or dual A-arm.
An additional word of advice is to not neglect the rear suspension. I've seen many-a-purpose-built car be built around the front suspension with little regard to how it ties into the rear. If the front isn't built appropriately for the rear suspension, you may end up with an inferior performing car.
12-11-2012, 02:15 PM
#24
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Sorry... I must have missed some of the talking points.
But for a S2... I'd probably not touch the brakes at all except for pads and cooling ducts. If it were running slicks on a big track where it could develop significant speed... then there might be a need for bigger brakes, but even then I doubt it.
As far as factory A arms go... I've been racing with factory 968 control arms since 2006 with no problems. I replaced then once because one of the ball joints had a little play in it and probably would have any way just as a matter of preventative maintenance after 4 seasons of racing. But even then... I run a sticky 315 front tire on a stiffly sprung low car. Zero problems. If anybody was going to break a stock control arm/stock ball joint... it would have been me.
TonyG
But for a S2... I'd probably not touch the brakes at all except for pads and cooling ducts. If it were running slicks on a big track where it could develop significant speed... then there might be a need for bigger brakes, but even then I doubt it.
As far as factory A arms go... I've been racing with factory 968 control arms since 2006 with no problems. I replaced then once because one of the ball joints had a little play in it and probably would have any way just as a matter of preventative maintenance after 4 seasons of racing. But even then... I run a sticky 315 front tire on a stiffly sprung low car. Zero problems. If anybody was going to break a stock control arm/stock ball joint... it would have been me.
TonyG
Uhm Tony, keep it in perspective dude.
You are making my point for me.
1) you aren't going to get a 944S2 up to 170 on any banking broken up by a "roval" track design anywhere in the US of A.
2) OP's car is a street car so adding "400 hp and reporting back" is about as moot a point as I can think of.
Rereading my post, I don't see any problems with context, so I can only guess that you had a problem comprehending the part where I said that I have seen pics of failed hubs. The point I was making is that on two seriously tracked 944s (I have owned a 944 variant of one or the other since 1990, i.e. 22 years), I have never personally seen a broken hub on any of our current cars.
One of the two, has so much track time that it carries 4 completed log books with races everywhere in the US except the west coat and 1 full season powered by a 968 engine in GT3.
And yes, properly "maintaining" wheel bearings and bearing preload is part of regular maintenance on a tapered roller bearing like 944 hubs have.
There is also a correct method for changing bearing races, I can't speak to the failures you have seen but in servicing these cars over the years, I have seen punch and chisel gouges in the hub bores from previous work that could have led to deepened cracking, etc. which caused ultimate failures. Remember, we are talking about owners/mechanics that post questions like "how do I take off my oil filter", etc.
Back on topic...., have you seen any a-arms or hubs break on a factory powered street car that wasn't driven off road or through a foot deep pothole...?
How many acquaintances do you know that complain about insufficient braking on a stock powered 944S2...?
With respect for the OP, I'll bow out of this one and encourage him to carry on making his S2 suspension "upgrades".
T
You are making my point for me.
1) you aren't going to get a 944S2 up to 170 on any banking broken up by a "roval" track design anywhere in the US of A.
2) OP's car is a street car so adding "400 hp and reporting back" is about as moot a point as I can think of.
Rereading my post, I don't see any problems with context, so I can only guess that you had a problem comprehending the part where I said that I have seen pics of failed hubs. The point I was making is that on two seriously tracked 944s (I have owned a 944 variant of one or the other since 1990, i.e. 22 years), I have never personally seen a broken hub on any of our current cars.
One of the two, has so much track time that it carries 4 completed log books with races everywhere in the US except the west coat and 1 full season powered by a 968 engine in GT3.
And yes, properly "maintaining" wheel bearings and bearing preload is part of regular maintenance on a tapered roller bearing like 944 hubs have.
There is also a correct method for changing bearing races, I can't speak to the failures you have seen but in servicing these cars over the years, I have seen punch and chisel gouges in the hub bores from previous work that could have led to deepened cracking, etc. which caused ultimate failures. Remember, we are talking about owners/mechanics that post questions like "how do I take off my oil filter", etc.
Back on topic...., have you seen any a-arms or hubs break on a factory powered street car that wasn't driven off road or through a foot deep pothole...?
How many acquaintances do you know that complain about insufficient braking on a stock powered 944S2...?
With respect for the OP, I'll bow out of this one and encourage him to carry on making his S2 suspension "upgrades".
T
12-11-2012, 03:20 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Mike -- keep it up. I like it when people say "Hey, what if..." and "Ah hell, why not". I love this sort of stuff.
Have you considered moving away from a Mac Strut altogether? Personally, if I were going to be looking for a cost-almost-no-object approach to fixing the front suspension, I would go with some kind of multilink or dual A-arm.
An additional word of advice is to not neglect the rear suspension. I've seen many-a-purpose-built car be built around the front suspension with little regard to how it ties into the rear. If the front isn't built appropriately for the rear suspension, you may end up with an inferior performing car.
Have you considered moving away from a Mac Strut altogether? Personally, if I were going to be looking for a cost-almost-no-object approach to fixing the front suspension, I would go with some kind of multilink or dual A-arm.
An additional word of advice is to not neglect the rear suspension. I've seen many-a-purpose-built car be built around the front suspension with little regard to how it ties into the rear. If the front isn't built appropriately for the rear suspension, you may end up with an inferior performing car.
I will then construct a top a-arm (wishbone) and convert over to the Lexus-style coilover mounted to the LCA.
The geometry is no problem for me to figure out - I have some software for suspension geometry (written for me) that I have been using for over twenty years...
Correct on the rear suspension - I have some plans for that as well.
Cheers,
Mike
12-11-2012, 03:26 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Uhm Tony, keep it in perspective dude.
You are making my point for me.
1) you aren't going to get a 944S2 up to 170 on any banking broken up by a "roval" track design anywhere in the US of A.
2) OP's car is a street car so adding "400 hp and reporting back" is about as moot a point as I can think of.
Rereading my post, I don't see any problems with context, so I can only guess that you had a problem comprehending the part where I said that I have seen pics of failed hubs. The point I was making is that on two seriously tracked 944s (I have owned a 944 variant of one or the other since 1990, i.e. 22 years), I have never personally seen a broken hub on any of our current cars.
One of the two, has so much track time that it carries 4 completed log books with races everywhere in the US except the west coat and 1 full season powered by a 968 engine in GT3.
And yes, properly "maintaining" wheel bearings and bearing preload is part of regular maintenance on a tapered roller bearing like 944 hubs have.
There is also a correct method for changing bearing races, I can't speak to the failures you have seen but in servicing these cars over the years, I have seen punch and chisel gouges in the hub bores from previous work that could have led to deepened cracking, etc. which caused ultimate failures. Remember, we are talking about owners/mechanics that post questions like "how do I take off my oil filter", etc.
Back on topic...., have you seen any a-arms or hubs break on a factory powered street car that wasn't driven off road or through a foot deep pothole...?
How many acquaintances do you know that complain about insufficient braking on a stock powered 944S2...?
With respect for the OP, I'll bow out of this one and encourage him to carry on making his S2 suspension "upgrades".
T
You are making my point for me.
1) you aren't going to get a 944S2 up to 170 on any banking broken up by a "roval" track design anywhere in the US of A.
2) OP's car is a street car so adding "400 hp and reporting back" is about as moot a point as I can think of.
Rereading my post, I don't see any problems with context, so I can only guess that you had a problem comprehending the part where I said that I have seen pics of failed hubs. The point I was making is that on two seriously tracked 944s (I have owned a 944 variant of one or the other since 1990, i.e. 22 years), I have never personally seen a broken hub on any of our current cars.
One of the two, has so much track time that it carries 4 completed log books with races everywhere in the US except the west coat and 1 full season powered by a 968 engine in GT3.
And yes, properly "maintaining" wheel bearings and bearing preload is part of regular maintenance on a tapered roller bearing like 944 hubs have.
There is also a correct method for changing bearing races, I can't speak to the failures you have seen but in servicing these cars over the years, I have seen punch and chisel gouges in the hub bores from previous work that could have led to deepened cracking, etc. which caused ultimate failures. Remember, we are talking about owners/mechanics that post questions like "how do I take off my oil filter", etc.
Back on topic...., have you seen any a-arms or hubs break on a factory powered street car that wasn't driven off road or through a foot deep pothole...?
How many acquaintances do you know that complain about insufficient braking on a stock powered 944S2...?
With respect for the OP, I'll bow out of this one and encourage him to carry on making his S2 suspension "upgrades".
T
The late, great Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg managed to put this into words:
http://www.meta-gizmo.net/intro/ECSTACYBOOK.html
Cheers,
Mike
12-11-2012, 03:44 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
I'd also add that Mike may not be stopping his upgrades at the front suspension. Quite a few people have turbocharged their S2's and having the upgraded suspension in place might be what he's planning...
....might not either...just saying...
....might not either...just saying...
12-11-2012, 05:30 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Cheers,
Mike
