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Glad you're healthy Bruce! User URG8RB8 has the bar I was never comfortable installing, if you could treat him as an original buyer I'd appreciate it. Looking forward to updates on your LS project, all the best.
The new design is in my car. It fit well. Its aligned great. subframe support tabs are being made. The new pivot bolts are monster, and the bar is much thicker and stronger everywhere. Overall Im cautiously happy. Three bars are shipping out over the next two weeks and another replacement bar will be made. I have put as much time and money (thousands this month so far) as I could into these to ensure a safe and strong experience. I wish everyone the best. Happy racing.
Hard to say on some of your questions FT. Long since looked at this part. I don't think the top right part of the X member was cracked even though it looks like it in the picture. Same for the spring plate. Certainly looks like it was pushing into something but it was so long ago that I can't recall.
New T Bar Delete,
I have received and installed the latest upgraded version of the T Bar Delete, Great quality and fitment. It is definitely stronger than the previous versions. I had two of the original bars, one of them broke, very similar to Patrick's. The second one we reinforced and has been in one of our race cars for over two years with good success. Bruce does have a few new bars available, please feel free to contact him if you have any interest.
Max
+1, the new bar is a definite improvement. Thicker steel, additional attachment points and a larger pivot bolt.
The old version worked fine for me for years, until I hit a wall. The new bar fit in the car nicely. I hope to have the rest of the car fixed and racing again this summer.
Bruce, have you considered using chrome-moly for these? I would think the bulk of your customers are racers that take both weight and strength into consideration. This over MS could prove to be superior in both categories.
Bruce, have you considered using chrome-moly for these? I would think the bulk of your customers are racers that take both weight and strength into consideration. This over MS could prove to be superior in both categories.
I have, and the cost upgrade is a fairly large margin. I dont think I would ever go to a thinner wall again. The currently upgraded wall thickness with the added supports and larger pivot bolt should be a monster strength upgrade as is. I think the only people who would benefit from using this same thicker wall thickness AND have it made out of chromolly would be people like Patrick.
On a side note, I was asked to make a tube with even thicker mild steel wall thickness than the newest thick design! It's been made and shipped already. They weren't worried about the weight at all and actually welcomed it. And it was pretty heavy. I guess its all just a matter of taste at that point.
I have enough materials and water jet pieces and energy to make only about 3 extra bars with all the beefier stuff. I'm not considering further plans for more in the future.
I've read this thread from start to finish. And it's been on my mind for days. This is something I've anyways thought, and Bruce ended up verifying the hard way for us (and him). The forces that come into play in a vehicle suspension, at 60, 100, and 120 mph. It's far greater than most of us can even imagine.
It's not just vertical, horizonal, or even the lateral forces. It's all of them, happening all at once, and building crazy synergy. Then you add in sticky tires, sways, and super crazy stiff springs .. I mean, wasn't it Patrick who posted up he's pulling upwards of 2 Gs? 2...... G!!!!!! That's in effect throwing 2.5 to 3 TONS of effective weight around. Constantly, suddenly, and abruptly!!! In umpteen different ways, and that force being concentrated in just a handful of honestly small areas. And all your mount points become levers for all that force to work on. Hammering away.... The entire time your in motion!!
I've honesty spent no small amount of time under my car, admiring the engineering that makes this all work. And marveling at how well they honesty did within the constants they had to work within. The boys at Porsche had to weigh performance with comfort, and then factor in safety, weight, and cost. They also had to take into account manufacturing constraints, wear, and some ease of replacement. (On the last one I something's wonder if engineers sometimes have a sadist streak, but I degrees)
I'm kind of wandering here, but my point is, I think even amoung racers, the forces at play here sometimes get downplayed. Outside of mechanical engineers I think it's hard for most of us to really imagine all that comes into play. And just how much force that really is. But I do think Van did a great job of explaining what was likely a good part of what was at play here. But anyone who's read his post and seen his videos knows Vans a sharp guy. On that note, most of you guys are!
I personally think it's a testament to Bruce's skills and solid design that allowed these to fail gracefully and not catastrophicly. This is a high stress piece, in a high stress area. And since your straying from the stock design so much, it's a bit like reinventing the wheel. It just always amazes me how inventive this community is!! I'm always so impressed with the things you guys are able to do to get every little extra bit out of these cars.
I hope, very honesty, that this new design with its extra strength and extra mounting tabs really does the trick! I'm going to keep my eye on this for sure, I want to see it succeed.
Does this whole saga really drive home just how well the stock design was built, and how much really goes into these when they were made for anyone else? I mean the stock design doesn't do as good a job keeping the contract patch flat on the ground, but it does its job for 100s of thousands of miles without failure. And none of us are ever "nice" to our 944s all the time. They were meant to be thrown around the twisties, and most of us take full advantage of that every chance we get!
I mean, that's why we own them right?
The wear parts wear, and generally the non-wear parts last. R&P and timing belts aside, the cars take it and give back smiles. Even 30+ years later!
Anyway, sorry for the ramblings. This thread just really got me thinking and I just had to share my .02 cents. I know many of you have studied these suspensions inside and out. But I think everyone was a bit surprised just how much force was being applied here... No? I know I was.
New Bar
This is one of the latest T-Bar Delete
I did mill in a few lightening holes
Both top and bottom view
Max
You cut ~1-1.5" holes in the mounting point for the swaybars and the new tabs for the additional mounting points? I'm guessing they are made of 3/16" steel plate? You must have saved 6oz? You are a brave man!
s14kev,
We are targeting to get this new race car around 2000lbs wet
944T tub with 968 motor Carbon fiber Roof, Doors, Hood, Fenders, Rear quarter, Front Nose, Seat, Steering Wheel, Chromoly cage, Lexan windows. Every oz adds up
Max
You're welcome Justin. Finally! There is a lot more metal on the back and bottom sides, but I really think that theadditional support tabs alone are the majic solution.
03-17-2017, 08:57 PM
