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Old 08-27-2012, 07:48 PM
  #61
lee101315
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Originally Posted by 2bridges View Post
Ok, so i have to ask, why on earth would you ever want 35 gallon cell?

Easy ballast (in the form of fuel)???
Do you have to weigh in immediately after a race - or...... maybe just beofore??? Do I forsee a quick drain setup
Thats heavier than your average passenger at 6lbs* 35 gallons= 210lbs....and thats not including the weight of the cell.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:28 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by 2bridges View Post
Ok, so i have to ask, why on earth would you ever want 35 gallon cell?

Easy ballast (in the form of fuel)???
Do you have to weigh in immediately after a race - or...... maybe just beofore??? Do I forsee a quick drain setup
The same reason that I'm also keeping the 15 gallon fuel cell that's in the back of the car. The reason that I might also be taking the existing 15 gallon fuel cell our and putting in a 25 gallon Endurance Racing (for a total of 60 gallon fuel capacity).

Lots of clubs have races that run well in excess of an hour. NASA runs a 100 mile enduro, the POC runs a 4 hour enduro race. These are big races.

It's much much faster to carry more fuel at a slightly slower pace than it is to pit for fuel multiple times. Avoiding pit stops is a major factor in winning endurance races.

Besides... when I'm not running an endurance race... I just won't carry a lot of fuel.

As far as additional ballast goes... yes..... it's also ballast, but that's not the primary reason.

If you're in the top 3 in your class, you go straight to the scales after impound.

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Old 08-29-2012, 01:46 AM
  #63
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The 35 gallon fuel cell install..... the start of the fuel cell encapsulation....

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Old 08-29-2012, 10:36 AM
  #64
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Oh wow.

Thassa big boy!

Side note; That shop looks very nice.
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:28 PM
  #65
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Here's the most recent up date from today...

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Old 09-04-2012, 08:46 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by lee101315 View Post
Thats heavier than your average passenger at 6lbs* 35 gallons= 210lbs....and thats not including the weight of the cell.

Correct.

But it's irrelevant as it will only be run full at an enduro race where the additional weight of the fuel is a small price to pay for the ability to not have to make a fuel stop (or two).

In all other races, typical 15-20 lap races, the fuel cell will only get maybe 10-12 gallons put in. So yes there is additional weight due to the fuel cell itself, but that doesn't really matter much it can just be considered ballast since I'll have to add weight the car anyway.

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Old 09-05-2012, 08:07 AM
  #67
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Now that's big!
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
Correct.

But it's irrelevant as it will only be run full at an enduro race where the additional weight of the fuel is a small price to pay for the ability to not have to make a fuel stop (or two).

In all other races, typical 15-20 lap races, the fuel cell will only get maybe 10-12 gallons put in. So yes there is additional weight due to the fuel cell itself, but that doesn't really matter much it can just be considered ballast since I'll have to add weight the car anyway.

TonyG
I agree...Id rather race with an extra 250lbs, than have to stop for 3- 5 mins to refuel...
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:19 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by lee101315 View Post
I agree...Id rather race with an extra 250lbs, than have to stop for 3- 5 mins to refuel...
The additional weight of the fuel will allow me to do 1 pit stop instead of 5... eliminating 4 pit stops. And each pit stop takes at least 3-4 minutes due to the long (almost a mile long) hot pit lane... which must be gone down no faster than 30mph.

Also... any fuel spill or mph in excess of 30mph in the hot pit requires a 2 minute penalty (from the time you reach the black flag station on the hot pit lane). Thus eliminating 4 fuel stops reduces the chances of a penalty (either in exceeding the 30mph speed limit or spilling any fuel).

All of the above is for the Tribute to Lemans 4 hour enduo race.

Even at smaller races where the normal club enduro race is 100 miles... I would still save at least 1 fuel stop if not 2 depending on the track.


Combined this with the fact that the car is under weight to begin wiith and you can see why these cars are done this way.


... As they say... the races are won in the pits. And nobody wins these races without carrying a lot of fuel for this exact reason.


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Last edited by TonyG; 09-06-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:46 PM
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Fuel cell firewall enclosure done. Also trial fit new dual master cylinder mount.

The dry break in the passenger quarter window and the fabricated hard plumbing will be done tomorrow.

NEXT!!!! Ohhhhhhh just you want...... The setup of all setups.... stay tuned....

TonyG


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Old 09-06-2012, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
Fuel cell firewall enclosure done. Also trial fit new dual master cylinder mount.

The dry break in the passenger quarter window and the fabricated hard plumbing will be done tomorrow.

NEXT!!!! Ohhhhhhh just you want...... The setup of all setups.... stay tuned....

TonyG


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Hey Tony that wall looks awfully close to your shifter. From the pics it doesn't look like there will be room to engage 5th or reverse.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 400hp944 View Post
Hey Tony that wall looks awfully close to your shifter. From the pics it doesn't look like there will be room to engage 5th or reverse.
I know it does from the pics. But the wall next to the driver is actually angled towards the passenger door slightly.

I really wanted as much weight as possible as centered and as far back as possible.

There might be enough room now. If not, we'll build a slightly offset shifter handle.

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Old 09-06-2012, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by robstah View Post
I hope that's a joke with the fuel cell...
You're right. It is a joke.

I'll pass on your arm-chair engineering excellence to the people that built it... you know... the same people up until a few years ago, built ALL of the fuel cells for the cup cars for Fuel Safe.

Oh... and the same people that also built the fastest 944 ever built (by far).

And I almost forgot..... the same people that used that exact same design on the cup car last year that won the biggest Porsche club enduro race ..... you know... the one with the pro drivers.

Yeah.... you're right. They are a joke.


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Old 09-07-2012, 01:32 AM
  #74
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1. NASA has already approved this design. It's already been raced in NASA in either the GT or ST classes.

2. Any fuel limit constraints are what they are. Some clubs / race classes may have them. Some may not. So what? The car needs to add weight anyway. The fuel cell isn't considered ballast, thus it doesn't contribute to the maximum allowable ballast rule. This is a 35 gallon fuel cell that's easily removable if not needed since there are two different fuel cells on the car.

3. As far as safety goes... I think the that the people that actually made all of the fuel cells for Fuel Safe for all of the Porsche Cup Cars... which is who made this firewall enclosure for the Fuel Safe fuel cell.... are far more qualified to determine what is safe than anybody else. The fact that it was built by those same people... pretty much gives it all of the certification it needs in any club. Not to mention that everybody that's anybody knows the person that owns the company that built this. So it's a trivial issue.

4. Yes the car is built for a specific class in POC (which has a corresponding class in NASA) which the fastest class available just below the open/unlimited class. And it's now optioned with the ability to carry a lot more fuel (if needed) to compete with the big boys in the endurance races (which happens to have a **** load of great contingency stuff/money).

5. What you are seeing is not the fuel cell. It's the firewall that encapsulates the fuel cell (not shown). The actual fuel cell can be pulled out in a few minutes of not needed.

And the actual fuel cell... has a bladder as well as the standard enclosure. Both of which get located in the firewall shown in the pics....

The other fuel cell (the standard smaller fuel cell.. currently 17 gallons) is located directly above the transaxle behind the drivers firewall. And as an additional FYI... about 4"-5" of the torque tube and transaxle bell housing have been cut down to allow the fuel cell to sit that much lower, as well as the actual fuel cell housing having a 2" recess cut and welded in... thus allowing the "small" fuel cell to sit about 6"-7" closer to the ground than could be accomplished otherwise.

6. Here's a pic of their GT1 (the unlimited class) Boxter. It's got a factory 500HP 4.0L RSR motor, and full 997 GT3 front and rear suspension. This will be the car to beat. Note the location of the fuel cell.

The car is far more complete now. I'll dig up a more current photo.

Notice the resemblance to my 951 (as well as to ORCA)?

TonyG






Originally Posted by robstah View Post
I don't care who makes the fuel cells. I care about the location of the fuel cell. You obviously can't comprehend that bit.

How about this. Show me a picture of a race car that has their tank located where you are installing yours.

Since you mentioned NASA enduro (per their regulations):

3.4. Fuel tanks / cells

The Race Director reserves the right to impose certain requirements on those cars with gas tanks (or fuel cell) significantly larger than originally equipped. Teams that have installed tanks (or fuel cells) larger than stock, and are entered in E0, E1, E2, or E3 class, may be required to drain the tank and fill it with the same amount of fuel that the original stock tank held. Additionally, teams are cautioned that modifying or substituting the OEM tank can be illegal in some class rules; and could also be deemed a safety hazard. No vehicle may have more than two fuel tanks and/ or cells. No vehicle may carry more than forty four (44) gallons of fuel at any given time.

Majority of endurance racing has a limit on tank size. I've seen 24 hour enduros have a 25gal limit.

Seriously though, are you just building this thing just to build it or are you actually building it to compete in a class?
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:14 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by robstah View Post
How about this. Show me a picture of a race car that has their tank located where you are installing yours.
TVR Sagaris V8 series cars had the tanks in the passenger seat area. FIA GT rules allowed it in UK and Dubai as long as it was firewalled. I was going to run my cell there for better weight distribution but never got around to strengthening the side impact bars. Don't see a problem with it as long as it's well protected.

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