User 52121

Logging and monitoring, boost control, multiple input fuel and timing control - that's all extra. You have to buy the PB for that ($750)... and add an extra $100 for the boost control solenoid if you want boost control. And then there is the time required to set it all up (you get a "blank" PB to start with.) In other words: not apples-apples comparison here.

Apples to apples:

• User set rpm and boost limits, MAP failure detection, that comes with both products. Josh and John both have the capability to set whatever rpm and boost limit you want. Just email or call them before you place your order.
• Both come with a MAF sensor and all your necessary brackets and hoses.
• Both probably "work" just as well once installed on the car - I can't imagine there being a HUGE difference in performance between the two.
• Both have reputations for having good customer service
• Rogue is plug and play on '87+ cars. Vitesse requires you to cut your stock AFM connector off and splice in his adapter. Or you can pay an extra $150 to get an adapter that doesn't require cutting and soldering
• On 1986 cars, you DO need to update your DME to the 28-pin socket to run the Rogue setup. Josh charges $50 for that service (or you can chance it and do it yourself for free...) The Vitesse chip works with both 24- and 28-pin DMEs without needing to be modified. As the OP has an '89, this isn't an issue for him
• Both have the ability to store multiple maps. The Rogue I believe can hold 2 and 2 maps are included in his base price. Vitesse can definitely hold more - his website says 16, but I don't know how much he charges per additional map.

reno808

I see what your saying. i Hope he would do that. Second-hand buyers different stories. I have emails to prove.

I posted once here the prices individually for the stuff he charges and he made the mods of rennlist take it down. they even gave me a infraction for posting prices if i am not mistaken.

JBrown

I had full Vitesse on my Car.. His turbo, Maf, SMT 6,as well as other things. I spend over $4000 with John. The product worked very well. I found a lister selling a vitesse wasted spark. He was the original owner. I purchased the product and called John for alittle tech support. Unless I paid he would not give any support.. After the amount of money I spent with him I thought that was rediculous.
Basically what I am saying is that the product is very good but as far as I am concerned the company stinks.. I own a Sound and performance shop . If you buy a product from any company that I represent you can call them or look on there web site and get specs and instructions for the product. That is the way it is suppose to be. Unless John changed his ways he will not give 2nd owners any help or support or waranntee. That is terrible.
Had an issue with the car so I had to have the motor rebuilt so I sold all the vitesse stuff to help me with the rebuild ( nothing to do with Vitesse product). I was going to rebuild it and just leave it with original eqiupment. I gave the car to my son and he has the bug to BOOOST. So he went with Rogue product. He did not get the MAF. He bought the A tune I think it is called, chips and the Map sensor.
We had nothing else that was Rogue. Lindsey 3 in exhaust , dual port wastegate and garret turbo.
He sent us chips and they were not perfect, so after talking a couple of times we got it right and the car runs great. The support you will get from Russell is much better than John. I have driven my sons car and the car is smooth and pulls like an animal. Rogue tuning makes a good product and matches it with top support, even if you are working with other copanies product , something I think Vitesse is lacking.
So to sum it up. I fell thay are both good product cost aside. Costomer service with working product rogue is the way to go.
John

JBrown

sorry ment joshua not russell

Tom M'Guinn

Yes, to be clear, I was indeed referring to Vitesse's overall system, some parts of which like the piggyback and boost control, do cost more. Entirely agree that it is an apples to oranges comparison, which is why I tried to make clear that (in my view) the decision really comes down to what you are looking for in a MAF system.

zerMATT951

You obviously completely miss the point.

porshhhh951

Hardly. The OP was asking about the product and service and as long as he is buying first hand he will have a fantastic one. I've heard several people complain that John did not give them free tech help and use that as a basis to not do business with him. Ironic thing about that is if you are buying 3rd hand you aren't doing business with him in the first place. When your in his position and have been making products for so many years it gets old when someone calls you asking for install or trouble shooting help on a kit that's god knows how old and in god knows what shape. I've seen John help people out in need, people are greedy and want first rate service without paying first rate pricing. You've got to look at it from his point of view. If someone didn't buy this from you and knows extremely little about it you could spend hours trouble shooting even the simplest of problems, because of poor grounds or other issues with the the car. I don't know what line of work your in, but I'll bill out anything more than 30 minutes let alone hours spent through email, voice mail, or phone support. John spent tons of time on the phone with me and through email long before I was ever his customer.

John's products are first rate and so is his support. I've seen so many 951's that are rigged its terrible. At the end of the day your talking about a car that can be bought for five grand and with that price point comes certain expectations of cost per ownership. Most 951s on the market today are not in great fully sorted order and I'm being generous when I say that. The few cars that are, are money pits and the owners know it. They also aren't the ones who are usually complaining about cost versus service.

Give Rogue 10 years of making kits and when enough of his products are out there where his phone will literally ring several times a day from people he has never done business with asking for his time and see how long he is willing to give into that bottomless pit. Eventually you've got to draw the line at some point.

User 41221

^+1

I am one of the long time 951 owners here on Rennlist, and a long time Vitesse customer and enthusiast. I have not used Rogue and cannot make any sort of comment about Joshua or his products or offer a comparison between Rogue vs Vitesse. What I can say is that I have never felt the need to go elsewhere after initially going with Vitesse. His products AND his customer service have FAR exceeded my expectations.

One thing that seems to keep getting skipped over is that these cars have a fair number of variables that are out of the control of either John or Joshua, and it doesn't take very much with a tuned 951 to get it to the point that something catastrophic can happen to it. John has provided plenty of unpaid for support for his products over the years to second and third hand owners, and for some people to state otherwise is absolute BS. Try using the search function if you don't believe me. And there are plenty of other folks who state with absolute conviction about how Vitesse products work without having ever so much as riding in a car that has Vitesse products on it, let alone owned or installed them. It would be nice if the 'listers that fit that description would clearly identify their firsthand experiences (or lack therefof) before casting stones in his direction. Likewise with anyone talking about Rogue or any other vendor that still supports our cars. As it is, its that sort of behavior that has significantly cheapened the outstanding technical reputation that this forum once had. It has gotten to the point that there are only about five 'listers who still frequent this forum that I would actually trust to know what they are talking about.

To those of you who state that its great that we have vendors that are supporting the 951 platform, you are absolutely right. Its a small community, and its very tough to do any sort of comparison between two vendors without having it come down to a pi$$ing contest and unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for how to avoid that. Both John and Joshua deserve our respect, because I am postive its a labor of love for them. No one is getting rich selling products for 951's at this point, and if we aren't careful, we won't have anyone providing products for our cars.

porshhhh951

Yes the real money has long since moved on from this platform. Those vendors that remain are here out of love, not because they're getting rich. It's not like we are talking about mustangs of which there is an endless supply of new potential customers. A 944 turbo is a rare car by comparison and can easily double or triple its used purchase price in modification and maintenance.

User 41221

Trust me, it can go WAYYY beyond triple... I'll let you add up my pile of receipts if you don't believe me! Just don't tell me or my wife the total. lol

Adonay

Vitesse :-D or standalone due to the features .. Shouldn't be buying things like sensors second hand in my opinion better to save to you can afford something new. Would you buy used fuelpump,sparkplugs,afm,o2 sensor, as well? To many people cant afford these cars and would be better off with out tuning them and focusing on the maintenance instead. My vitesse setup is tuned right were you want it (plug and play no need to touch the piggyback or even own the piggyback) and works very well with both E85\racefuel and gas. However if you want boost-control and the more advanced futures a piggyback becomes a must. Rouge seems great for the price however if you plan to joke around with cams and other bigger engine changes that setup need just like the vitesse a piggyback as well. Slightly modified cars require only the chip,maf,injectors,fpr though . I guess you cant go wrong with either however i would not trade away the over boost protection and the added safety the vitesse piggyback adds to my car.

Paulyy

theres a few rogue vs vitesse threads if you search. but they're both good. theres no 1st and 2nd. if there was, they'd be both at the top.

JBrown

I dont agree with John support being great. As I wrote before I spent $4000 with John and I purchase a used wasted spark and he would not give me any help. That sounds right to you. Not to me. I own a very busy car audio performance shop and If I need a question answered about a product that I do not deal with all I have to do is call the company and they will answer any question about the product I want. Specs, hook up. You can usually get owners manual on line also.. Will John give a second hand customer a owners manual or install manual. On his site he sound have a section to download owners manuals or installation manuals and he would not get called as much..

reno808

I know you have help me with the hack job that was done with the 951 stereo and not charge me a dime. Actually told me to come back so we can 951 talk and go on runs

fast951

As much as I dislike posting in these type of threads, it's impossible to sit on the sideline when incorrect information is presented. I know you wanted technical data, however a few posters are not interested in technical facts and features, and will derail a thread in a heartbeat.
I feel this thread is going down hill really fast. If you have any technical questions, feel free to email me directly.