GARRETT better than KKK ?
08-15-2002, 07:41 AM
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GARRETT better than KKK ?
Why is everybody saying a GARRETT hybrid is better than a KKK (K27) ?
The K27 seems to be able to flow a good amount of air as seen on 965 Turbo car producing around 380 Bhp...
What are the K27 compressors used for hybrids turbos (K27/6 or K27/8) ?
Who knows their impeller size ?
The K27 seems to be able to flow a good amount of air as seen on 965 Turbo car producing around 380 Bhp...
What are the K27 compressors used for hybrids turbos (K27/6 or K27/8) ?
Who knows their impeller size ?
08-15-2002, 10:56 AM
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I can't give you much technical info, but, I've heard of K27#6 and K27#8, as well as the Powerhaus K27DR (David Raines) that is supposed to be a combination of some sort- it's like one side of a #8 is machined to fit inside a #6. JM finished up a return e-mail he sent me (a long time ago) w/something to the affect that controlling exhaust pressures is CRUCIAL for K27's- I believe that means that they are supposed to be eliminated as much as possible(?). Oh, I also know that Powerhaus (and maybe others) have used the turbo from earlier 911 turbos- the K29 for hybrid applications- As a matter of fuct, the infamous Graham Gillies red 951 (was featured in Excellence several years back, 2.8L w/some 440WHP) had a K29 hybrid from Powerhaus, but went to a Garret before it eventually blew up- I do not know the cause of the engine failure though...
I believe that most people consider Garret's to be superior, as they are much newer technology- JM uses them for many of his engines...
The one negative I've heard about Garret's is that they sometimes tend to smoke a lot at idle- that would not work for me, and is the only thing that would weigh against them for me...
I believe that most people consider Garret's to be superior, as they are much newer technology- JM uses them for many of his engines...
The one negative I've heard about Garret's is that they sometimes tend to smoke a lot at idle- that would not work for me, and is the only thing that would weigh against them for me...
08-15-2002, 11:04 AM
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Much newer technology ?
What could that mean ?
Better aerodynamics of compressor , better thermodynamics ?
I am really asking your opinions as I read several post and seen a lot of Dyno sheets with K27 hybrids or Garretts and the results seems to be equal => 300 HP in average at the wheels at same Rpm's...
What could that mean ?
Better aerodynamics of compressor , better thermodynamics ?
I am really asking your opinions as I read several post and seen a lot of Dyno sheets with K27 hybrids or Garretts and the results seems to be equal => 300 HP in average at the wheels at same Rpm's...
08-15-2002, 11:13 AM
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To tell you the honest truth, I do not know- I have been told by many, Powerhaus people including Raines, Chris Cervelli, Derek @ Huntley, John Anderson I believe, etc that the KKK's have been around sicne the '70's- would make sense- I'm not sure which years of 911's used the K29's, but I know that some did- makes sense doesn't it- they had horrible spool-up & lag, but when the boost hit, it hit HARD- really on/off personality. The K27 didn't come out of any Porsches that I'm aware of, so I don't know where it originated from.
Anyway, the fact that they're much older than the Garrets probably only affects things like overall heat and possibly quickness of spool-up to some degree, overall rpms that it the impeller can spin, etc- the newer Garret's are supposed to be able to hold as much or more, yet still spool up[ a little earlier- that's the sales pitch anyway... As for overall output, I would think the size of the turbo would dictate MOST of it, BUT, it's possible that the newer Garret's can spin higher rpms safely, which may allow higher power- not sure about the dif b/t them though- I have noticed that many of the higher HP 951's are using KKK's though, and haven't noticed a major dif in which can actually put out more- hopefully someone w/more practical knowlegde and expereince w/both will step in here...
Anyway, the fact that they're much older than the Garrets probably only affects things like overall heat and possibly quickness of spool-up to some degree, overall rpms that it the impeller can spin, etc- the newer Garret's are supposed to be able to hold as much or more, yet still spool up[ a little earlier- that's the sales pitch anyway... As for overall output, I would think the size of the turbo would dictate MOST of it, BUT, it's possible that the newer Garret's can spin higher rpms safely, which may allow higher power- not sure about the dif b/t them though- I have noticed that many of the higher HP 951's are using KKK's though, and haven't noticed a major dif in which can actually put out more- hopefully someone w/more practical knowlegde and expereince w/both will step in here...
08-15-2002, 11:53 AM
#5
Nordschleife Master
BTW, K27 came on 968 Turbo S and 911 Turbos from the latter part of the eighties.
Also, it's wrong to say that "KKK-turbos are old" since they still produce turbos and are OEM in new engines from VAG..
(but not under the original KKK-brand but they still use the K2X model signs)
Also, it's wrong to say that "KKK-turbos are old" since they still produce turbos and are OEM in new engines from VAG..
(but not under the original KKK-brand but they still use the K2X model signs)
08-15-2002, 12:04 PM
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Are you SURE the K27's came on late '80's 911 Turbo's? I was talking about that w/someone a LONG time ago and they had said that, but later said that they found out differently and that the 911 turbo's of that era had K29's- I'm not sure, but that's what I've always understood- I've also asked several people (at Porsche shops) about K27's, and no one has known where they came from- anyway, again, I'm just going by what I've heard- not sure about anything...
08-15-2002, 03:58 PM
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From what I know of the k27 series, they did put them on 91-94 911 turbos. They are called the k27-7200 series. They are pretty quick in spooling up usually full boost by 3000 rpm's. Powerhaus also does a conversion k27/k29 for 944 turbo's. What they do is convert it to a 7200 series but use a #6, #8 or their DR housing so the turbo will bolt up. On their website, they claim that the turbo will flow around 800 cfm's compared to a k27/6 which only flows around 500-600 cfm's. They claim that with all their modes they got 360 wrhp at 20 pounds of boost.
ken 86 951
79 930
p.s. As far as Graham Gillies red 951 2.8 motor blowing up, his car ran lean while adjusting his arc 2 controller. That's why he went to a 3.0 litre motor.
ken 86 951
79 930
p.s. As far as Graham Gillies red 951 2.8 motor blowing up, his car ran lean while adjusting his arc 2 controller. That's why he went to a 3.0 litre motor.
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08-15-2002, 07:15 PM
#8
Rennlist Junkie Forever
I had a Powerhaus K27/6 DR with their ported "O" ringed head, larger injectors, MAF/ARC2, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, 2 1/2" test pipe with XR-1 Borla muffler, and a full Nology ignition setup.
The best I could ever do was about 345HP to the wheels at 20psi boost.
But.... I made my peak TQ at 3500 rpms. That's very important.
The KKK tubos are very good turbos (referring to the K27/6). They just aren't quite as good as the Garretts.
The problem is it's very easy to go too big on a turbo, especially with the Garretts, because there are so many possible configurations.. and the temptation to go larger is so great.
In reality, there's only so much air that the engine will use at 350HP to the wheels. 350HP SAE corrected to the wheels is the realistic big HP number. Yes you can get more, but you're going to spend big bucks to do it.
The best I could ever do was about 345HP to the wheels at 20psi boost.
But.... I made my peak TQ at 3500 rpms. That's very important.
The KKK tubos are very good turbos (referring to the K27/6). They just aren't quite as good as the Garretts.
The problem is it's very easy to go too big on a turbo, especially with the Garretts, because there are so many possible configurations.. and the temptation to go larger is so great.
In reality, there's only so much air that the engine will use at 350HP to the wheels. 350HP SAE corrected to the wheels is the realistic big HP number. Yes you can get more, but you're going to spend big bucks to do it.
08-15-2002, 08:08 PM
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DAMN Tony! Is there a Porsche performance shop that you HAVEN'T bought from? 
It sounds like you've experimented w/almost everything...
That Powerhaus set-up you mentioned doesn't sound nearly as great as THEY make it sound- I mean- 20psi(!)- DAMN- w/all that @ 20psi, I would expect a little better I think...
It sounds like you've experimented w/almost everything...That Powerhaus set-up you mentioned doesn't sound nearly as great as THEY make it sound- I mean- 20psi(!)- DAMN- w/all that @ 20psi, I would expect a little better I think...
08-15-2002, 11:02 PM
#10
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Hey...
Yes... I've been playing with these cars for quite some time now and have tested most of the stuff available for these cars.
345HP to the wheels SAE corrected on the dyno jet is one hell of a lot of power from a 2.5L engine. I was very happy with that setup. It proved to be 100% reliable up to and when I sold it with 135k miles on the clock (stock original bottom end).
I used to drive the car from Los Angeles to San Diego (about 180 miles each way) and do the dyno competitions with me, Tim Richards, John Anderson, Derrek Khajavi, and many others on a pretty regular basis. I'd drive there, lay down some dyno runs, and drive back .... while many of the other people there would be blowing head gaskets, breaking things, etc... I'd just smile and drive home hehehehh
When you get to making BIG power and I'm talking about 380+HP to the wheels, everything is pushed to the absolute limit. Any erorrs with tuning/configuration results in an expensive parts/labor bill.
If you can get 345HP to the wheels, be happy and drive the car. At this power level, you probably will not find any car driven on the street that will out accelerate you from a rolling start and beyond (including 993TT's, Ferarris, American muscle, etc... it would be very rare to get taken
Yes... I've been playing with these cars for quite some time now and have tested most of the stuff available for these cars.
345HP to the wheels SAE corrected on the dyno jet is one hell of a lot of power from a 2.5L engine. I was very happy with that setup. It proved to be 100% reliable up to and when I sold it with 135k miles on the clock (stock original bottom end).
I used to drive the car from Los Angeles to San Diego (about 180 miles each way) and do the dyno competitions with me, Tim Richards, John Anderson, Derrek Khajavi, and many others on a pretty regular basis. I'd drive there, lay down some dyno runs, and drive back .... while many of the other people there would be blowing head gaskets, breaking things, etc... I'd just smile and drive home
hehehehhWhen you get to making BIG power and I'm talking about 380+HP to the wheels, everything is pushed to the absolute limit. Any erorrs with tuning/configuration results in an expensive parts/labor bill.
If you can get 345HP to the wheels, be happy and drive the car. At this power level, you probably will not find any car driven on the street that will out accelerate you from a rolling start and beyond (including 993TT's, Ferarris, American muscle, etc... it would be very rare to get taken
08-16-2002, 04:10 AM
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Tony- you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about how strong one of tehse things should be w/345WHP- even if they only lost 10%, that would be ~380 at the crank, and most people say they lose ~15%- powere to weight, considering their 3150 test, put's them close to the 1:8 range, so that's right there w/Vipers, 993/996TT's, etc... I guess I just wasn't thinking about it- but 20psi still sounds a little high, considering all of those mods- the literature that Powerhaus sent me shows a Turbo S w/almost identical stuff that ran 340HP & 333TQ @ 1.1bar- they could be exxagerating(?). At any rate, I'd be ecstatic w/340+ WHP- I'm dying to get JM's new kit (should be out in the fall) that has a turbo, chips, injectors, etc and he hopes to put out 380 (crank) at 14psi- we'll see- his last one was 360 at 14.5 I believe. Not quite 345WHP, but like you said, much above that area, and you get into bigger bucks and more reliability probs...
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08-16-2002, 05:58 AM
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Tank you for all your answers
In Fact like Tony have said I am very much interested in getting maximum of torque at around 3000 rpm.
In fact I would like a set-up giving the same output as a 968 Turbo S with a 3 liter engine.
My thought were a K27 with a K26-8 hot side will do a good job besides being a bolt-on option with same mounting and even watercooling that is nice for a street car.
The K27 has a 72 mm compressor inlet I presume equivalent to a TO54E-...
K27 were also used on GT1 car so it shouldn't be so far of a Garrett on performance side for a same size compressor...
In Fact like Tony have said I am very much interested in getting maximum of torque at around 3000 rpm.
In fact I would like a set-up giving the same output as a 968 Turbo S with a 3 liter engine.
My thought were a K27 with a K26-8 hot side will do a good job besides being a bolt-on option with same mounting and even watercooling that is nice for a street car.
The K27 has a 72 mm compressor inlet I presume equivalent to a TO54E-...
K27 were also used on GT1 car so it shouldn't be so far of a Garrett on performance side for a same size compressor...
08-16-2002, 01:10 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Just to chime in here, the 89 and earlier 911 turbos used essentially a KKK K26 turbo although it has a different number. The 91-94 911 turbos used a KKK K27-7200 turbo. KKK K29 turbos did not come from the factory on any production 911 turbo. I use a rather large (T04S) Garrett Turbo on my 930 and it does not smoke and works well with my setup. Additionally, I have used Garrett hybrids in several other non-Porsche applications with great success. Turbonetics has been my best source for information in the past.
08-16-2002, 02:39 PM
#14
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Nicolas
A K27/8 turbo will not give you what you want. Using this turbo would put your TQ peak at around 4100+ rpms with a 2.5L engine.
If you go with a K27 hybrid turbo, go with the K27/6 setup... a much better solution.
TonyG
A K27/8 turbo will not give you what you want. Using this turbo would put your TQ peak at around 4100+ rpms with a 2.5L engine.
If you go with a K27 hybrid turbo, go with the K27/6 setup... a much better solution.
TonyG
08-17-2002, 03:01 PM
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Tony is right.A k-27/8 will not give you what you want.However one of our level 2 turbos with an 8 hotside.
will.
As you can clearly see this was an unbiased dyno chart from one of our customers.This car is a 2.5L that was run at 17 psi(1.15bar).It was using one of our level 2 turbos(no ball-bearing)It makes 370 horsepower at the wheels and just as much torque! Look at the overall power curve.It is huge and this is exactly what you want.It has a broad torque band as well. Take a look at where peak torque is made.About 3600 rpnms or so which is about 500 rpms sooner then a comparable KKK turbo.This car also has an awesome power curve that continues to climb till redline.It is not a light switch type power curve like Grahm Gillies car either. Not bad for $1199 worth of turbo;^) If anybody can show me a KKK turbo that makes as much power with as nice of a power curve as this, I will give you some free fuel lines(offer is good for the first person to respond-LOL)! Take care.
will.
As you can clearly see this was an unbiased dyno chart from one of our customers.This car is a 2.5L that was run at 17 psi(1.15bar).It was using one of our level 2 turbos(no ball-bearing)It makes 370 horsepower at the wheels and just as much torque! Look at the overall power curve.It is huge and this is exactly what you want.It has a broad torque band as well. Take a look at where peak torque is made.About 3600 rpnms or so which is about 500 rpms sooner then a comparable KKK turbo.This car also has an awesome power curve that continues to climb till redline.It is not a light switch type power curve like Grahm Gillies car either. Not bad for $1199 worth of turbo;^) If anybody can show me a KKK turbo that makes as much power with as nice of a power curve as this, I will give you some free fuel lines(offer is good for the first person to respond-LOL)! Take care.