951 vs. l98
08-15-2002, 03:21 AM
#16
Race Director
"APE chips... which are about the worst you can get. Every dyno I've seen with APE chips shows that the a/f was too rich to soon, and too lean up top...."
Yup, Tony's right on!!! Check out this chart of the typical AutoThority Stage-2 chip fuel-curve:
In this particular installation, fuel-pressure was set on the high side to ensure that the top-end didn't get dangerously lean. The EuroProducts chips exhibit this exact same behavior (as well as a couple of other makes). The myth is that you can increase fuel-delivery by re-programming chips. Which is a complete fallacy because this only works in the mid-range and at the top-end, you're still limited by the 80% duty-cycle and the same fuel-volume as stock. The only way to can increase fuel across the board to match increased flow from larger turbos and more boost is to increase fuel-pressure and get larger injectors. However, this throws the entire fuel-curve out of whack if your chips were programmed for stock fuel-pressure and stock turbos.
By dialing out the mid-range richness, we were able to increase mid-range torque by 20% to achieve a torque-curve similar to the above at 1psi less boost. Then adjusting ignition-timing allowed us to further increase torque yet another 25% to 300lb-ft (265rwhp).
Yup, Tony's right on!!! Check out this chart of the typical AutoThority Stage-2 chip fuel-curve:
In this particular installation, fuel-pressure was set on the high side to ensure that the top-end didn't get dangerously lean. The EuroProducts chips exhibit this exact same behavior (as well as a couple of other makes). The myth is that you can increase fuel-delivery by re-programming chips. Which is a complete fallacy because this only works in the mid-range and at the top-end, you're still limited by the 80% duty-cycle and the same fuel-volume as stock. The only way to can increase fuel across the board to match increased flow from larger turbos and more boost is to increase fuel-pressure and get larger injectors. However, this throws the entire fuel-curve out of whack if your chips were programmed for stock fuel-pressure and stock turbos.
By dialing out the mid-range richness, we were able to increase mid-range torque by 20% to achieve a torque-curve similar to the above at 1psi less boost. Then adjusting ignition-timing allowed us to further increase torque yet another 25% to 300lb-ft (265rwhp).
08-15-2002, 03:29 AM
#17
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tony g- we dynoed the cars on the same dyno-i had 200hp/233 ft/lbs. i fixed a couple things since then, however the vette pulled 240 hp/330 ft lbs. off the line is right. 1.8 60' times. thats enough. i can be faster the rest of the time and it doesnt seem to matter. im sure you must be a better driver, but you cant knock 1.5 secs off my times with my car. maybe friday will turn out differently and ill be much faster. do you live in pa?
08-15-2002, 05:42 AM
#18
Rennlist Junkie Forever
RE: Danno
That dyno chart with the a/f ratios is exactly what I've seen on at least 10 dyno charts other than the dyno charts I have of my own cars running APE chips. I've had 3 sets of APE chips including some ... cough cough.. "Custom K27/6 chips"...(which showed the exact same fuel curve as all the other APE chips I've tested). JUNK!
It's no wonder why so many people have blown head gaskets with the APE chips (I've posted about these soooooooo many times in the past on the Rennlist/PorschePhiles/etc... lists...
Here's a link from my web site: <a href="http://www.tonygarcia.org/ape_stage_2_dyno.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tonygarcia.org/ape_stage_2_dyno.htm</a>
Here's an image from my web site of the typical APE a/f ratios:
As far at the 80% duty cycle thing you posted.. I'm not sure what you're talking about there.. so I can't comment.. I do know that with the ARC2 fuel controller, and any variants of the APE chips, I could not get my previous 951 to go overly rich up top... no matter if I turned up ALL the ***** on the ARC2.
Subsequent to the above paragraph, back back back, when I owned my grey 951, I installed a set of HR chips. They made a HUGE difference. From then on, I could turn the ARC2 up a couple of clicks too far to the rich side and the car would bog bad as the a/f went way too rich. The funny thing here is that I couldn't do that with any of the APE chips. This lead me to believe that for some reason, the APE chips vectored off the duty cycle to some maximum far below what the stock and/or aftermarket fuel injectors were capable of producing.
I've never touched or read the program that is stored within the ROM of the chips that control these cars... so I cannot comment further.
In any event... I'm up for testing your chips Danno... Let me know and I'll buy a set when you've got them ready (I just can't resist tinkering with these cars :-)
TonyG
That dyno chart with the a/f ratios is exactly what I've seen on at least 10 dyno charts other than the dyno charts I have of my own cars running APE chips. I've had 3 sets of APE chips including some ... cough cough.. "Custom K27/6 chips"...(which showed the exact same fuel curve as all the other APE chips I've tested). JUNK!
It's no wonder why so many people have blown head gaskets with the APE chips (I've posted about these soooooooo many times in the past on the Rennlist/PorschePhiles/etc... lists...
Here's a link from my web site: <a href="http://www.tonygarcia.org/ape_stage_2_dyno.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tonygarcia.org/ape_stage_2_dyno.htm</a>
Here's an image from my web site of the typical APE a/f ratios:
As far at the 80% duty cycle thing you posted.. I'm not sure what you're talking about there.. so I can't comment.. I do know that with the ARC2 fuel controller, and any variants of the APE chips, I could not get my previous 951 to go overly rich up top... no matter if I turned up ALL the ***** on the ARC2.
Subsequent to the above paragraph, back back back, when I owned my grey 951, I installed a set of HR chips. They made a HUGE difference. From then on, I could turn the ARC2 up a couple of clicks too far to the rich side and the car would bog bad as the a/f went way too rich. The funny thing here is that I couldn't do that with any of the APE chips. This lead me to believe that for some reason, the APE chips vectored off the duty cycle to some maximum far below what the stock and/or aftermarket fuel injectors were capable of producing.
I've never touched or read the program that is stored within the ROM of the chips that control these cars... so I cannot comment further.
In any event... I'm up for testing your chips Danno... Let me know and I'll buy a set when you've got them ready (I just can't resist tinkering with these cars :-)
TonyG
08-15-2002, 05:45 AM
#19
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Oh yeah...
What you see on the above dyno chart is the same car run over and over again with the fuel pressure increased each run.
Notice the exact same a/f curve....
The increased fuel pressure simply moved the fuel curve richer and richer with each run.
...
And.. I live in Los Angeles California FWIW.
What you see on the above dyno chart is the same car run over and over again with the fuel pressure increased each run.
Notice the exact same a/f curve....
The increased fuel pressure simply moved the fuel curve richer and richer with each run.
...
And.. I live in Los Angeles California FWIW.
08-15-2002, 06:44 PM
#21
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Danno, can I buy your chips for now, and then buy the rest of the kit later? Or i can easily sell them and get new chips with the whole kit. either way, I think It would be better if I had a new set of chips.
08-15-2002, 07:06 PM
#22
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Opps... Here's the link:
<a href="http://www.tonygarcia.org/ape_stage_2_dyno.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tonygarcia.org/ape_stage_2_dyno.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.tonygarcia.org/ape_stage_2_dyno.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tonygarcia.org/ape_stage_2_dyno.htm</a>
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08-16-2002, 11:36 AM
#24
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tony, thanks for the info, you made me want to get new chips. i'm going to buy danno's kit with the new chips of his with the optimal a/f ratio.
Danno, I'll let you know how it goes. Later.
Danno, I'll let you know how it goes. Later.
