(COME ON!)What non KKK turbo do you have?
06-11-2003, 09:56 PM
#17
Rennlist Junkie Forever
M Danger
Sorry for missing your questions...
Hey Tony, Why didnt you choose the regular 60-1? or even the 62-1?
Several reasons.
A) the turbo inlet is too big and severely interferes with the alternator with respect to the unobstructed air path if you keep the a/c and alternator in the stock locations.
The 60-1 HiFi easily fits into the stock location with no problems associated with intake manifold clearance and/or alternator clearance.
B) Don't need anything that big. The trick is to use the smallest turbo that will do the job.... what ever job that is. The 60-1HiFi will easily flow enough to make 400HP at the wheels. That's my target.
C) Bigger compressor wheel = more compressor mass = more lag.
I looking at the same hot side .70, but what trim do you have O,P, or Q?
None of the above. It's a stage 5 Turbonetics trim.
Do you have the ball bearing option? im definately going to go with that.
Yes
What Garret GT turbos would be comprable to these?
Sorry... never owned a GT turbo or driven a car with a GT turbo so I can't comment.
ALso as a reference, what turbine/housing would be comprable to the KKK #6 and #8 of our stock turbos?
I can't really answer that. Turbonetics makes a KKK replica turbine housing (as shown in the picture above). I think you can get that in different a/r ratios comparible to that of the factory turbine housings. With respect to the turbine wheel, you'd have to ask Turbonetics, as I can't answer that.
Sorry for missing your questions...
Hey Tony, Why didnt you choose the regular 60-1? or even the 62-1?
Several reasons.
A) the turbo inlet is too big and severely interferes with the alternator with respect to the unobstructed air path if you keep the a/c and alternator in the stock locations.
The 60-1 HiFi easily fits into the stock location with no problems associated with intake manifold clearance and/or alternator clearance.
B) Don't need anything that big. The trick is to use the smallest turbo that will do the job.... what ever job that is. The 60-1HiFi will easily flow enough to make 400HP at the wheels. That's my target.
C) Bigger compressor wheel = more compressor mass = more lag.
I looking at the same hot side .70, but what trim do you have O,P, or Q?
None of the above. It's a stage 5 Turbonetics trim.
Do you have the ball bearing option? im definately going to go with that.
Yes
What Garret GT turbos would be comprable to these?
Sorry... never owned a GT turbo or driven a car with a GT turbo so I can't comment.
ALso as a reference, what turbine/housing would be comprable to the KKK #6 and #8 of our stock turbos?
I can't really answer that. Turbonetics makes a KKK replica turbine housing (as shown in the picture above). I think you can get that in different a/r ratios comparible to that of the factory turbine housings. With respect to the turbine wheel, you'd have to ask Turbonetics, as I can't answer that.
06-11-2003, 10:32 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by TonyG:
<strong>The turbo on the left is my old turbo. It was a KKK "replica" hotside of the KKK, but made, obviously, by Turbonetics.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">that's exactly what I meant, a turbonetics casting of a kkk hotside.
turbonetics casts #8's and #10's
from what I've read, it's not the mass of the wheel as much as the energy that is required to compress that much more air and shaft speeds.
<strong>The turbo on the left is my old turbo. It was a KKK "replica" hotside of the KKK, but made, obviously, by Turbonetics.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">that's exactly what I meant, a turbonetics casting of a kkk hotside.
turbonetics casts #8's and #10's
from what I've read, it's not the mass of the wheel as much as the energy that is required to compress that much more air and shaft speeds.
06-11-2003, 11:34 PM
#20
Rennlist Junkie Forever
M Danger:
Of course it will flow more at lower speeds.... because it's larger.
The the problem is not flow. The problem is the rate at which the turbine accelerates.
The larger, the more mass, the slower the rate of acceleration, with respect to the turbo itself.
The other problem is that you have a quite big interuption in air flow because the alternator is in the way. The Purcosil (or whatever rubber hose you use) has to bend around the alternator. Thus the large opening of the compressor isn't quite so large after you figure that into the equation. Additionally, I'm sure that the low pressure areas created by the alternator incursion into the area of flow creates further reduction of compressor effiency.
All in all... and according to John Milledge, the 60-1 HiFi is the compressor to use, and is what he uses on his high HP applications.
also i belive if it flows more volume at lower RPMs you can make up for the lag
That statement is incorrect. You have to accelerate the turbine to make boost.
The added mass of the larger turbine will slow "down the rate of acceleration", producing more lag.
Lag is defined as the time it takes to turbo to spool (accelerate) fron x rpm to y rpm, and the rate of acceleration (very important).
Of course it will flow more at lower speeds.... because it's larger.
The the problem is not flow. The problem is the rate at which the turbine accelerates.
The larger, the more mass, the slower the rate of acceleration, with respect to the turbo itself.
The other problem is that you have a quite big interuption in air flow because the alternator is in the way. The Purcosil (or whatever rubber hose you use) has to bend around the alternator. Thus the large opening of the compressor isn't quite so large after you figure that into the equation. Additionally, I'm sure that the low pressure areas created by the alternator incursion into the area of flow creates further reduction of compressor effiency.
All in all... and according to John Milledge, the 60-1 HiFi is the compressor to use, and is what he uses on his high HP applications.
also i belive if it flows more volume at lower RPMs you can make up for the lag
That statement is incorrect. You have to accelerate the turbine to make boost.
The added mass of the larger turbine will slow "down the rate of acceleration", producing more lag.
Lag is defined as the time it takes to turbo to spool (accelerate) fron x rpm to y rpm, and the rate of acceleration (very important).
06-11-2003, 11:59 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Right but since its flowing more air even though its spooling slower than another turbo which would need to be spinning faster to flow the same, wont that make things even?
oh did you get the divided turbine housing? thats was i was planning on.
I dont see the Stage 5 listed on turbonetics site.
I wont have a problem with the intake clearance since everything will be custom fit including a custom intake manifold. So ill be able to position the turbo for best fit..
oh did you get the divided turbine housing? thats was i was planning on.
I dont see the Stage 5 listed on turbonetics site.
I wont have a problem with the intake clearance since everything will be custom fit including a custom intake manifold. So ill be able to position the turbo for best fit..
06-12-2003, 12:58 AM
#22
Rennlist Junkie Forever
M Danger
Right but since its flowing more air even though its spooling slower than another turbo which would need to be spinning faster to flow the same, wont that make things even?
Nope. The issue is "Rate of Acceleration".
Drive a K26/6 car with a good wastegate and you'll see what I mean. The turbo spools lightning fast. Why? Because the mass is low (or rather the moment of inertia is low). It's small in diameter, and it's much lighter. Therefore it accelerates much much faster.
The issue isn't where it starts to spool, nor is it where is the rpm when it's at full boost... again.. it's how fast the turbo itself accelerates.
Larger turbos accelerate slower. Thus the boost comes on slower and softer... and typically later.
oh did you get the divided turbine housing?
Yes... I have the divided housing, but only because at the time I couldn't get the non-divided turbine housing. You won't get any more power with or without the divided housing. Get the non-divided housing since it's correct for the application.
We had to grind and and knife edge the divider about 2" into the housing.
I dont see the Stage 5 listed on turbonetics site.
They don't list everything that you can have custom built.
I wont have a problem with the intake clearance since everything will be custom fit including a custom intake manifold. So ill be able to position the turbo for best fit..
I'm not sure how this could be.
A} Either you don't have a/c, and thus are utilizing an a/c drop bracket, or..
B) Are utilizing a custom motor mount that will raise the turbo so that the compressor intake will clear the alternator housing.
And... if this is the case, you've now raised the compressor housing that, in its' stock location already will hit the intake manifold, so that you are now going to have a major compressor housing/intake manifold clearance issue...
C) Have a custom motor mount that will locate the turbo farther towards the firewall, thus allowing plumbing to be created to clear the alternator, if utilizing the a/c setup.
And.. this now creates all sorts of clearance issues with a turbo down pipe since the axis of the turbo mount is such that the down pipe is pointed towards the block..
D) Have a custom motor mount made, re-align the turbo so it is angled more inline with the axis of the car, create custom turbo feed and down pipes, custom turbo intake pipes, on and on and on... Lots of fabrication work that would cost a lot of money, for what? To get a compressor housing in that flows 5%-10% more?... when you cannot possibly use all of the air provided by the slightly smaller 60-1 HiFi (unless you're making more than 425HP at the wheels)?
It just doesn't make sense. Not logically, nor does it make sense financially.
And... the larger turbo will accelerate slower than the smaller turbo... thus the boost will hit softer.
Right but since its flowing more air even though its spooling slower than another turbo which would need to be spinning faster to flow the same, wont that make things even?
Nope. The issue is "Rate of Acceleration".
Drive a K26/6 car with a good wastegate and you'll see what I mean. The turbo spools lightning fast. Why? Because the mass is low (or rather the moment of inertia is low). It's small in diameter, and it's much lighter. Therefore it accelerates much much faster.
The issue isn't where it starts to spool, nor is it where is the rpm when it's at full boost... again.. it's how fast the turbo itself accelerates.
Larger turbos accelerate slower. Thus the boost comes on slower and softer... and typically later.
oh did you get the divided turbine housing?
Yes... I have the divided housing, but only because at the time I couldn't get the non-divided turbine housing. You won't get any more power with or without the divided housing. Get the non-divided housing since it's correct for the application.
We had to grind and and knife edge the divider about 2" into the housing.
I dont see the Stage 5 listed on turbonetics site.
They don't list everything that you can have custom built.
I wont have a problem with the intake clearance since everything will be custom fit including a custom intake manifold. So ill be able to position the turbo for best fit..
I'm not sure how this could be.
A} Either you don't have a/c, and thus are utilizing an a/c drop bracket, or..
B) Are utilizing a custom motor mount that will raise the turbo so that the compressor intake will clear the alternator housing.
And... if this is the case, you've now raised the compressor housing that, in its' stock location already will hit the intake manifold, so that you are now going to have a major compressor housing/intake manifold clearance issue...
C) Have a custom motor mount that will locate the turbo farther towards the firewall, thus allowing plumbing to be created to clear the alternator, if utilizing the a/c setup.
And.. this now creates all sorts of clearance issues with a turbo down pipe since the axis of the turbo mount is such that the down pipe is pointed towards the block..
D) Have a custom motor mount made, re-align the turbo so it is angled more inline with the axis of the car, create custom turbo feed and down pipes, custom turbo intake pipes, on and on and on... Lots of fabrication work that would cost a lot of money, for what? To get a compressor housing in that flows 5%-10% more?... when you cannot possibly use all of the air provided by the slightly smaller 60-1 HiFi (unless you're making more than 425HP at the wheels)?
It just doesn't make sense. Not logically, nor does it make sense financially.
And... the larger turbo will accelerate slower than the smaller turbo... thus the boost will hit softer.
06-12-2003, 02:17 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
well, alot of the stuff ill be doing my self and i Have the time and the capabilities, or resources. But ill see when the time comes.
Paul, What Gt turbo do you have exactly?
Paul, What Gt turbo do you have exactly?
