400 RWHP out of the 951
11-25-2011, 05:44 AM
#17
Three Wheelin'
This doesn't have anywhere near the effect compared to usual 2.5 -> 3.0 conversion with usual turbo.
And like always, it's a matter of preference. I build my 2.5 16v 2.5 for two reasons: 1. Cost (components are MUCH cheaper and if anything fails, replacements are radily available), 2. I like the car to have reasonable torque down low but I don't like it to have characteristics of modern factory turbo car where you get excellent throttle response and torque down low but engine becomes like an asthmatic past 5000 rpm. I like the engine to be calm and smooth down low and have the punch when I mash the throttle.
And like always, it's a matter of preference. I build my 2.5 16v 2.5 for two reasons: 1. Cost (components are MUCH cheaper and if anything fails, replacements are radily available), 2. I like the car to have reasonable torque down low but I don't like it to have characteristics of modern factory turbo car where you get excellent throttle response and torque down low but engine becomes like an asthmatic past 5000 rpm. I like the engine to be calm and smooth down low and have the punch when I mash the throttle.
11-25-2011, 06:34 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
You can have both with a 3L. The 2.5L tends to feel more like you get a noticable kick just because you have less tq than the 3L. 500cc is a 20% rise in capacity. That's huge. But if you have improved VE and commensurate hard/software upgrades...don't believe you won't get a kick when you stomp the throttle on a 3+ L.
I agree that we don't want a totally linear feeling motor. It's boring.
I agree that we don't want a totally linear feeling motor. It's boring.
11-25-2011, 07:22 AM
#19
Three Wheelin'
What I meant is that with VGT turbo you don't need that additional .5 liters of displacemet as you can just reduce A/R of the turbine and raise the boost pressure a bit since you are controlling the turbo with ECU anyway. On 2.4liter DSM engines, it is possible to reach 20 psi by 1700 rpm on HE351VE and still have 600 whp. It is even better with Porsche 16v head as it flows more even in stock form and 2.5liter with VGT turbo beats any 3.0 liter with whatever turbo solution except VGT or sequential and even then they are sort of even because of the turbo itself.
It is easier for most people to convert to 3.0liter because there is lot of know-how but it actually is cheaper to use VGT solution since you have to buy standalone ECU anyway if you want decent results and features like boost control etc.
Of course "cheaper" is relative. For me it is much cheaper to fabricate, build and do stuff myself than to pay to someone as 1. I don't have money to burn and 2. I can do things myself (learned that just because I wanted).
It is easier for most people to convert to 3.0liter because there is lot of know-how but it actually is cheaper to use VGT solution since you have to buy standalone ECU anyway if you want decent results and features like boost control etc.
Of course "cheaper" is relative. For me it is much cheaper to fabricate, build and do stuff myself than to pay to someone as 1. I don't have money to burn and 2. I can do things myself (learned that just because I wanted).
11-25-2011, 09:02 AM
#20
What are the options out there for a VGT and I have not searched.....It's 6 in the morning at work won't be able to look till tomorrow 
I don't know anyone with a new 911 turbo to borrow it from
I don't know anyone with a new 911 turbo to borrow it from
11-25-2011, 10:53 AM
#22
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what is it your trying to do? Have you spent any time in a 2.5L with a few bolt ons? Matt and i are both local (for you) and have typical bolt on's with larger turbo's and higher boost. Both cars are genuinely fast and have plenty of power to get you in trouble on many different levels!
You should go along for a ride.
Then again it depends on your answer to question #2.
what is it your trying to do? Have you spent any time in a 2.5L with a few bolt ons? Matt and i are both local (for you) and have typical bolt on's with larger turbo's and higher boost. Both cars are genuinely fast and have plenty of power to get you in trouble on many different levels!
You should go along for a ride.
Then again it depends on your answer to question #2.
11-25-2011, 06:32 PM
#23
What I meant is that with VGT turbo you don't need that additional .5 liters of displacemet as you can just reduce A/R of the turbine and raise the boost pressure a bit since you are controlling the turbo with ECU anyway. On 2.4liter DSM engines, it is possible to reach 20 psi by 1700 rpm on HE351VE and still have 600 whp. It is even better with Porsche 16v head as it flows more even in stock form and 2.5liter with VGT turbo beats any 3.0 liter with whatever turbo solution except VGT or sequential and even then they are sort of even because of the turbo itself.
It is easier for most people to convert to 3.0liter because there is lot of know-how but it actually is cheaper to use VGT solution since you have to buy standalone ECU anyway if you want decent results and features like boost control etc.
Of course "cheaper" is relative. For me it is much cheaper to fabricate, build and do stuff myself than to pay to someone as 1. I don't have money to burn and 2. I can do things myself (learned that just because I wanted).
It is easier for most people to convert to 3.0liter because there is lot of know-how but it actually is cheaper to use VGT solution since you have to buy standalone ECU anyway if you want decent results and features like boost control etc.
Of course "cheaper" is relative. For me it is much cheaper to fabricate, build and do stuff myself than to pay to someone as 1. I don't have money to burn and 2. I can do things myself (learned that just because I wanted).
11-25-2011, 10:17 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
What I meant is that with VGT turbo you don't need that additional .5 liters of displacemet as you can just reduce A/R of the turbine and raise the boost pressure a bit since you are controlling the turbo with ECU anyway. On 2.4liter DSM engines, it is possible to reach 20 psi by 1700 rpm on HE351VE and still have 600 whp. It is even better with Porsche 16v head as it flows more even in stock form and 2.5liter with VGT turbo beats any 3.0 liter with whatever turbo solution except VGT or sequential and even then they are sort of even because of the turbo itself.
It is easier for most people to convert to 3.0liter because there is lot of know-how but it actually is cheaper to use VGT solution since you have to buy standalone ECU anyway if you want decent results and features like boost control etc.
Of course "cheaper" is relative. For me it is much cheaper to fabricate, build and do stuff myself than to pay to someone as 1. I don't have money to burn and 2. I can do things myself (learned that just because I wanted).
It is easier for most people to convert to 3.0liter because there is lot of know-how but it actually is cheaper to use VGT solution since you have to buy standalone ECU anyway if you want decent results and features like boost control etc.
Of course "cheaper" is relative. For me it is much cheaper to fabricate, build and do stuff myself than to pay to someone as 1. I don't have money to burn and 2. I can do things myself (learned that just because I wanted).
Sure there does, but you can say that with a Garrett GT turbo too.
11-26-2011, 01:13 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Lol, I was going to say that too, but figured that would justify the use of VGT's on out cars.
No, it just seems like the turbo would have to be moved south or to the other side of the bay to fit, what with the manifold being so close as it is. That whole centre (canadian spelling
) section seems to me just too big to fit where the stock turbo location is. With that, it seems like not just a few up & down, etc. pipes be fabbed, but the entire front end exhaust plumbing would need to be re-designed and fitted to make this work.
Might as well just go 3.0L instead.
EDIT: That, or just buy a 996tt for cheap, tell your insurance you own a four seater 3.6L, and be done with it.
No, it just seems like the turbo would have to be moved south or to the other side of the bay to fit, what with the manifold being so close as it is. That whole centre (canadian spelling
) section seems to me just too big to fit where the stock turbo location is. With that, it seems like not just a few up & down, etc. pipes be fabbed, but the entire front end exhaust plumbing would need to be re-designed and fitted to make this work. Might as well just go 3.0L instead.
EDIT: That, or just buy a 996tt for cheap, tell your insurance you own a four seater 3.6L, and be done with it.
11-26-2011, 02:16 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
I'm not sure on the specifics of the VGT turbos. Don't imagine that the centre section is a lot larger than the Borg Warner turbos though?
11-26-2011, 02:33 PM
#28
11-26-2011, 04:36 PM
#30
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I have not put my CA car on a dyno yet, but having three other cars at or above 400 RWHP can assure you it is very close to 400. I have a stock '89 long block, with M-tune on E-85, 3" Fabspeed turbo back, old Huntley BB turbo, and Pauer tuning Tial WG with MBC. I am running 19 psi and have zero traction with 295's on the rear. The car is more drive able at 15 psi on reg. gas and is probably around 330-350 there. I would be highly surprised if you need more power that this setup will provide. I drive this car daily when in CA. Save your money and give this a try. I wasted over $40K on the other FL 951 and this one will smoke it!