What type of LSD is in the TurboS
01-03-2003, 11:54 PM
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What type of LSD is in the TurboS
I just wanted to know what type of LSD is standard on the TurboS. Is it a torsen, viscous, or clutch plate?
Is it the same in the Turbo with optional LSD?
I've searched, and didn't find the info.
Is it the same in the Turbo with optional LSD?
I've searched, and didn't find the info.
01-04-2003, 12:21 AM
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It's clutch plate. I believe they're 75% lock-up ratio (anyone know for sure?)
01-04-2003, 02:19 AM
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I'ts a Zed EF (ZF) 40% locking diff.
40% is quite a bit actually. an 80% isn't really great for the streets. The f355 challenge cars run with a 25 % lock rate
Throttle steer might be an easy way to point the car but it's deffinately not the quickest
40% is quite a bit actually. an 80% isn't really great for the streets. The f355 challenge cars run with a 25 % lock rate
Throttle steer might be an easy way to point the car but it's deffinately not the quickest
01-04-2003, 07:10 AM
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The 968 turbo s with 305 BHP at 5400 rpm had the limited slip differential with a 75% locking factor as standard equipment, also 4th and 5th gears of this new 6 speed gearbox got longer ratios as did the crown wheel and pinion, it had 3 liters and 8 valves at 8:1 compression
01-04-2003, 09:40 AM
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[quote] torsen and VC systems arent LSD <hr></blockquote>
Care to elaborate? They are definitely limited slip differentials. Just a different type.
To the other guys: What do you mean 40% locking ratio? I know Torsen/Quaife diffs very well, but not clutch plates.
How well do these LSD's hold up over milage? Would a TurboS with 100,000miles still have a working LSD? Or would the locking feature be worn out?
Care to elaborate? They are definitely limited slip differentials. Just a different type.
To the other guys: What do you mean 40% locking ratio? I know Torsen/Quaife diffs very well, but not clutch plates.
How well do these LSD's hold up over milage? Would a TurboS with 100,000miles still have a working LSD? Or would the locking feature be worn out?
01-04-2003, 07:39 PM
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my buddy Larry has a modified LSD in his S2 from Powerhaus. I'ts an 80%. From what I see, my 40 has "4" clutches and his 80 has 8. Well actually I didn't see under the case on his diff but I was told it had eight.
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01-04-2003, 07:46 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Luke:
<strong>my buddy Larry has a modified LSD in his S2 from Powerhaus. I'ts an 80%. From what I see, my 40 has "4" clutches and his 80 has 8. Well actually I didn't see under the case on his diff but I was told it had eight.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is a factory provision for raising the locking rate through the use of different shims. These are listed in the PET and have '917' part numbers.
<strong>my buddy Larry has a modified LSD in his S2 from Powerhaus. I'ts an 80%. From what I see, my 40 has "4" clutches and his 80 has 8. Well actually I didn't see under the case on his diff but I was told it had eight.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is a factory provision for raising the locking rate through the use of different shims. These are listed in the PET and have '917' part numbers.
01-05-2003, 02:32 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by RLefebvre:
<strong>
Care to elaborate? They are definitely limited slip differentials. Just a different type.
</strong><hr></blockquote>The Torsen and Quaife are torque biasing differentials, not limited slip. The term limited slip (LSD) implies a clutch type differential with preset lockup ratio. This is partially "locked" during both acceleration and braking. The torque biasing differentials do nothing during braking.
Based on the performance of my son's '89 turbo with close to 90K miles, I would say the LSD in a Turbo S with 100K miles would need rebuilding for optimal performance.
I have a Guard Transmission torque sensing unit in my S2 and it works quite well and hasn't given me any problems in the few years I've had it.
<strong>
Care to elaborate? They are definitely limited slip differentials. Just a different type.
</strong><hr></blockquote>The Torsen and Quaife are torque biasing differentials, not limited slip. The term limited slip (LSD) implies a clutch type differential with preset lockup ratio. This is partially "locked" during both acceleration and braking. The torque biasing differentials do nothing during braking.
Based on the performance of my son's '89 turbo with close to 90K miles, I would say the LSD in a Turbo S with 100K miles would need rebuilding for optimal performance.
I have a Guard Transmission torque sensing unit in my S2 and it works quite well and hasn't given me any problems in the few years I've had it.
01-05-2003, 02:05 PM
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Ok, well, I guess we all have different definitions. I've always read any diff that is not open, is limited slip. Since... it's limiting the amount of slip...
Most automotive engineering texts use the same convention.
So, that diff sounds a lot like the "posi-trac" I used to have in a Mustang. I'm not a big fan of the clutch types, because they create a yaw-moment during cornering that makes it harder to rotate the car.
I'm putting a Quaife in my Focus.
It's annoying that QuaifeUSA is still screwing you guys over on price. Their pricing structure is based on the competition in the market.
The diffs for Foci started out at $1200, until some competitors showed up, then the price went down to $600. The same price you could always buy it for in Europe.
Has anybody ever just imported one from Europe? I'm sure they're cheaper there for P-cars.
Most automotive engineering texts use the same convention.
So, that diff sounds a lot like the "posi-trac" I used to have in a Mustang. I'm not a big fan of the clutch types, because they create a yaw-moment during cornering that makes it harder to rotate the car.
I'm putting a Quaife in my Focus.
It's annoying that QuaifeUSA is still screwing you guys over on price. Their pricing structure is based on the competition in the market.
The diffs for Foci started out at $1200, until some competitors showed up, then the price went down to $600. The same price you could always buy it for in Europe.
Has anybody ever just imported one from Europe? I'm sure they're cheaper there for P-cars.
01-05-2003, 11:49 PM
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random fact for you all... LSD style transmissions arent offered in front wheel drive cars. to quote Vic Elford: "With a front wheel drive car, a limited slip differential is usually a liability rather than a help. Once it has locked up, both wheels are turning at about the same speed, but the inside one has less diatance to travel and tends to push the outside one beyond it's ideal arc, creating a case of massive understeer. Recent trchnological advances have helped to correct that undesirable situation with a viscous coupling traction control, allowing a distribution of power between the front wheels rather than a complete lockup."
But, like was noted earlier in this thread, most people think all special (non open style) differentials are LSD of one form or another... case in point, the nissan maxima now offers what they call a limited slip differential option. but, if you read the fine print, it's a torsen style diff and they are using the lsd name so they dont have to explain the difference.
Cheers
But, like was noted earlier in this thread, most people think all special (non open style) differentials are LSD of one form or another... case in point, the nissan maxima now offers what they call a limited slip differential option. but, if you read the fine print, it's a torsen style diff and they are using the lsd name so they dont have to explain the difference.
Cheers
01-06-2003, 10:36 AM
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[quote] LSD style transmissions arent offered in front wheel drive cars. <hr></blockquote>
Well, yes, they are... Just depends on your definition of LSD. Again, most engineering texts consider anything that is NOT open, "LSD".
[quote] With a front wheel drive car, a limited slip differential is usually a liability rather than a help. Once it has locked up, <hr></blockquote>
This statement kind of dates the era of technology we are talking about. I would be very surprised to find *ANYBODY* using a differential that EVER achieves 100% lock. This is a type such as a "Detroit Locker" and a few others. It's an open diff until you get a certain input torque, and then it SNAP locks 100%.
Not very good for drivability. I haven't heard of one being used in 20 years.
[quote] both wheels are turning at about the same speed, but the inside one has less diatance to travel and tends to push the outside one beyond it's ideal arc <hr></blockquote>
This statement again points to problems with the text.
ALL cars no matter whether they are, FWD, RWD, or AWD have this problem. That is why differentials were invented in the first place. Not just FWD, and not just front axles. RWD, AWD, rear axles, front axles... They all have different arc lengths between inside and outside wheels as they go through a turn.
So this problem would exist on ANY car, with any 100% locking type diff. Again, this is why nobody uses these types of diff anymore.
[quote] Recent trchnological advances have helped to correct that undesirable situation with a viscous coupling traction control, allowing a distribution of power between the front wheels rather than a complete lockup."
<hr></blockquote>
Again dating the text. VC diffs were used beginning in the 80's. The 1989 Mitsubishi Eclipse used these diffs. This text is quite outdated.
Torsen type differentials were invented quite some time ago, but were not practical to manufacture until the 80's, and were used in the 80's Audi Quattros, and continue today.
[quote] But, like was noted earlier in this thread, most people think all special (non open style) differentials are LSD of one form or another... <hr></blockquote>
Most people think this, because it is true. Use a more modern automotive engineering text, like "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" and you'll see that the commonly accepted terminology is that if it isn't open, it's an LSD.
Well, yes, they are... Just depends on your definition of LSD. Again, most engineering texts consider anything that is NOT open, "LSD".
[quote] With a front wheel drive car, a limited slip differential is usually a liability rather than a help. Once it has locked up, <hr></blockquote>
This statement kind of dates the era of technology we are talking about. I would be very surprised to find *ANYBODY* using a differential that EVER achieves 100% lock. This is a type such as a "Detroit Locker" and a few others. It's an open diff until you get a certain input torque, and then it SNAP locks 100%.
Not very good for drivability. I haven't heard of one being used in 20 years.
[quote] both wheels are turning at about the same speed, but the inside one has less diatance to travel and tends to push the outside one beyond it's ideal arc <hr></blockquote>
This statement again points to problems with the text.
ALL cars no matter whether they are, FWD, RWD, or AWD have this problem. That is why differentials were invented in the first place. Not just FWD, and not just front axles. RWD, AWD, rear axles, front axles... They all have different arc lengths between inside and outside wheels as they go through a turn.
So this problem would exist on ANY car, with any 100% locking type diff. Again, this is why nobody uses these types of diff anymore.
[quote] Recent trchnological advances have helped to correct that undesirable situation with a viscous coupling traction control, allowing a distribution of power between the front wheels rather than a complete lockup."
<hr></blockquote>
Again dating the text. VC diffs were used beginning in the 80's. The 1989 Mitsubishi Eclipse used these diffs. This text is quite outdated.
Torsen type differentials were invented quite some time ago, but were not practical to manufacture until the 80's, and were used in the 80's Audi Quattros, and continue today.
[quote] But, like was noted earlier in this thread, most people think all special (non open style) differentials are LSD of one form or another... <hr></blockquote>
Most people think this, because it is true. Use a more modern automotive engineering text, like "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" and you'll see that the commonly accepted terminology is that if it isn't open, it's an LSD.
01-06-2003, 11:36 AM
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RLefebvre, i know you're trying really hard to maintain you're right, but it's a simple matter of physics. even a 25% lock will cause a sizeable push on the outward wheel because the two wheels are traveling in different size arcs... technology hasnt changed that. it's the nature of LSD.
The reason locking your rear wheels doesnt affect you in rwd is because you arent turning with those wheels... i'm not aware of any awd cars with lsd diffs on the front either.
find one fwd car that's a lsd style diff... i mean that. find it and post it here. i would love to see it.
speaking of fwd, that's where VC style diffs are used, besides awd applications. you see, with a vc style diff you can use the breaks to transfer power from one wheel to the other by using brakes more on one wheel. this is modern traction control for most cheaper cars.
here's a quick page i googled for: <a href="http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm." target="_blank">http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm.</a>
oh yeah, one last thing... some cars do use a 100% locking diff, so to speak. any car without independent rear has a 100% locking diff.
But i can see that LSD is used to refer to all non open diffs. the actual LSD term does conventionally mean a clutch plate, that was my point of confusion.
The reason locking your rear wheels doesnt affect you in rwd is because you arent turning with those wheels... i'm not aware of any awd cars with lsd diffs on the front either.
find one fwd car that's a lsd style diff... i mean that. find it and post it here. i would love to see it.
speaking of fwd, that's where VC style diffs are used, besides awd applications. you see, with a vc style diff you can use the breaks to transfer power from one wheel to the other by using brakes more on one wheel. this is modern traction control for most cheaper cars.
here's a quick page i googled for: <a href="http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm." target="_blank">http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm.</a>
oh yeah, one last thing... some cars do use a 100% locking diff, so to speak. any car without independent rear has a 100% locking diff.
But i can see that LSD is used to refer to all non open diffs. the actual LSD term does conventionally mean a clutch plate, that was my point of confusion.
01-06-2003, 01:11 PM
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Wow... I don't see much point in continuing with this line of discussion. I don't think it will go anywhere constructive.
Can anybody tell me the difference between the TurboS and non-S Turbo LSD's? Are they both clutch type but different "locking ratios", or is the non-S Turbo fundamentally different?
Can anybody tell me the difference between the TurboS and non-S Turbo LSD's? Are they both clutch type but different "locking ratios", or is the non-S Turbo fundamentally different?
01-06-2003, 01:39 PM
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Is this a joke? Maybe I just don't get it, I'm fairly tired.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Jeremy Martin:
<strong>RLefebvre, i know you're trying really hard to maintain you're right, but it's a simple matter of physics. even a 25% lock will cause a sizeable push on the outward wheel because the two wheels are traveling in different size arcs... technology hasnt changed that. it's the nature of LSD.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No. A fwd car will usually push when on the power on corner exit. I suspect that there would be much less understeer with a 25% lock lsd than with the inside front spinning and overwhelming traction with an open differential.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>The reason locking your rear wheels doesnt affect you in rwd is because you arent turning with those wheels... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually it does. At the extreme of a 100% locked diff for the rear, you will either get understeer, or you will overwhelm traction on the rear inside wheel and get oversteer. It's reasonable to expect similar results at smaller locking %'s.
Racing karts utilize a solid axle, and if you don't drive them into a corner hard enough to lift the inside rear wheel, you will end up with significant understeer.
LSD = Limited Slip Differential
Limited = Confined or restricted within certain limits
Slip = To slide out of place; shift position
Differential = Differential gear
Please show me where in Webster's (or your dictionary of choice) it mentions clutch as part of this definition.
The other standard types of differentials are open and locked.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
[/QB]i'm not aware of any awd cars with lsd diffs on the front either.
find one fwd car that's a lsd style diff... i mean that. find it and post it here. i would love to see it.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">What is a Limited Slip Differential diff? The Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VII comes equipped with a front Torsen lsd. Most awd cars have plenty of grip with a center and rear lsd, so it is not as common.
As for the fwd car question, the list is large. There are numerous with viscous type lsd's and several with Torsen lsd's.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>speaking of fwd, that's where VC style diffs are used, besides awd applications. you see, with a vc style diff you can use the breaks to transfer power from one wheel to the other by using brakes more on one wheel.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Don't these systems usually use some type of center lsd with open diffs front and rear.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>this is modern traction control for most cheaper cars.
here's a quick page i googled for: <a href="http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm." target="_blank">http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm.</a></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Like the 996tt.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>oh yeah, one last thing... some cars do use a 100% locking diff, so to speak. any car without independent rear has a 100% locking diff.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm speechless.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>But i can see that LSD is used to refer to all non open diffs. the actual LSD term does conventionally mean a clutch plate, that was my point of confusion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Aaah, why the hell did you type all of that, and then mention this sheepishly at the bottom? See my definition of lsd above. Like I said, an open diff is not an lsd, nor is a locked diff an lsd. I suppose "conventionally" could mean "written in books where the author is ignorant of other types of lsd's or predates them." When reading works interpreted as non-fiction, non-historical works, it is usually a good idea to look at the date it was written and the qualifications of the author. Anyone with a couple bucks can publish a book, especially now with the new print on demand publishing.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Jeremy Martin:
<strong>RLefebvre, i know you're trying really hard to maintain you're right, but it's a simple matter of physics. even a 25% lock will cause a sizeable push on the outward wheel because the two wheels are traveling in different size arcs... technology hasnt changed that. it's the nature of LSD.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No. A fwd car will usually push when on the power on corner exit. I suspect that there would be much less understeer with a 25% lock lsd than with the inside front spinning and overwhelming traction with an open differential.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>The reason locking your rear wheels doesnt affect you in rwd is because you arent turning with those wheels... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually it does. At the extreme of a 100% locked diff for the rear, you will either get understeer, or you will overwhelm traction on the rear inside wheel and get oversteer. It's reasonable to expect similar results at smaller locking %'s.
Racing karts utilize a solid axle, and if you don't drive them into a corner hard enough to lift the inside rear wheel, you will end up with significant understeer.
LSD = Limited Slip Differential
Limited = Confined or restricted within certain limits
Slip = To slide out of place; shift position
Differential = Differential gear
Please show me where in Webster's (or your dictionary of choice) it mentions clutch as part of this definition.
The other standard types of differentials are open and locked.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
[/QB]i'm not aware of any awd cars with lsd diffs on the front either.
find one fwd car that's a lsd style diff... i mean that. find it and post it here. i would love to see it.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">What is a Limited Slip Differential diff? The Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VII comes equipped with a front Torsen lsd. Most awd cars have plenty of grip with a center and rear lsd, so it is not as common.
As for the fwd car question, the list is large. There are numerous with viscous type lsd's and several with Torsen lsd's.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>speaking of fwd, that's where VC style diffs are used, besides awd applications. you see, with a vc style diff you can use the breaks to transfer power from one wheel to the other by using brakes more on one wheel.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Don't these systems usually use some type of center lsd with open diffs front and rear.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>this is modern traction control for most cheaper cars.
here's a quick page i googled for: <a href="http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm." target="_blank">http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd.htm.</a></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Like the 996tt.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>oh yeah, one last thing... some cars do use a 100% locking diff, so to speak. any car without independent rear has a 100% locking diff.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm speechless.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
<strong>But i can see that LSD is used to refer to all non open diffs. the actual LSD term does conventionally mean a clutch plate, that was my point of confusion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Aaah, why the hell did you type all of that, and then mention this sheepishly at the bottom? See my definition of lsd above. Like I said, an open diff is not an lsd, nor is a locked diff an lsd. I suppose "conventionally" could mean "written in books where the author is ignorant of other types of lsd's or predates them." When reading works interpreted as non-fiction, non-historical works, it is usually a good idea to look at the date it was written and the qualifications of the author. Anyone with a couple bucks can publish a book, especially now with the new print on demand publishing.