ziominix

If money was no object, which would you all rather have? An 87 turbo or an 88 turbo s. I know the 88 is a little faster because of a different turbo setup and such, but what else is different, and which is the better overall car?

Thanks for any replys,
Bryan

Brian S.

Definetely the 88 turbo-s (or 89 turbo....same specs as a 88 turbo-s) Why??? Bigger turbo, bigger brakes, adjustable koni suspension, limited-slip diff., 10-speaker sound system; probably a couple other things I'm missing. All these were options on earlier cars, but are hard to find and are standard on the 88 turbo-s and '89 turbo. Hope it helps!!!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

951carter

Well it depends on what i (you) were going to use the car for. If it were going to be a daily driver and left stock, the S. If it were to be modified and see track time, the 87- w/out ABS and airbag options

Paul Bloomberg

951Carter,
Why wouldn't you want the ABS? I know a few people that race that have added ABS to early cars? How did you come to that conclusion?
Paul

christian

The airbags can always be de activated. ABS as well, or you modify your brake system the way you want it. I asked myself the same question and I bought a 89 just two weeks ago. Here is a "quick" summary:

The 1988 944 Turbo S was a special, limited edition model based on the Turbo Cup racing version of the 944 Turbo. The features, which distinguish this special model from other 944 Turbos and define its performance characteristics, are described below.

1. The characteristics described here were at or near the pinnacle of production sports car performance at the time of production, and today are still very impressive. These performance characteristics are highlighted here: · Engine power output of 247 SAE-HP · M030 Sport suspension package. · Improved front disc brakes, similar to the 928 S4. · Improved clutch and transmission to complement the additional power output. Intentions were initially for 1000 vehicles in this series, although plans changed as described here. The US Turbo S cars were fitted with Standard Options : M030 Sport chassis. M490 Hi-fi sound package. M220 Limited slip differential. M593 Antilock Brake System. M418 Protective side moldings. M650 Removable/tilting sunroof. M437 8-way power seat, left. M438 8-way power seat, right. M454 Cruise control. Later "S" cars were produced with the full range of available colors and interiors.

2. The major focus of the performance features of the Turbo S is the M 44/52 engine. It was produced with a catalytic converter. The engine characteristics are summarized below. 944 Turbo S: Displacement 2479cc. Stroke 78.9mm. Bore 100mm. Compression 8.0:1. SAE power 247 HP @ 6000 RPM. Torque @ 250 ft-lb 4000 RPM. Maximum RPM 6500±20. Maximum boost 1.82 bar Other detailed changes include: · New turbocharger. Modified turbine vanes. · Modified DME mapping of fuel and ignition curves and handling of knock sensor and oxygen sensor input. · Cooling system changes to accommodate surrounding body side member reinforcements. · Slightly larger exhaust valves, sodium cooled. Permits better running behavior at full load.

3. The clutch was modified with a "wide angle torsion damper". This is a spring-centered design with two stages of springs, providing compliance in the circumferential (torsion), direction. This enables a more smooth application of the additional power produced by the M 44/52 engine. Transmission In order to accommodate the additional power of the M 44/52 engine, the transmission was modified. This transmission is identified with the additional stamping of "AOR" after the stamped manufacturing date on the case. Changes include hardening of 1st and 2nd gears, and the transmission oil is externally cooled. Gearing remained the same as the conventional 944 Turbo. Transmission Gearing 1st Gear 3.500 : 1 2nd Gear 2.059 : 1 3rd Gear 1.400 : 1 4th Gear 1.034 : 1 5th Gear 0.829 : 1 Reverse Gear 3.500 : 1 Axle ratio 3.375 : 1 Limited Slip Differential Differential strength was improved by thickening the inner plates by 0.5mm at the expense of the thrust ring thickness. Additionally, the shafts are molybdenum coated and ground.

4. Larger brakes, 12" front disc brakes, similar to the 928 S4, were included. These featured: · Vented rotors · Aluminum calipers · ABS · Vibration damper · 4 piston arrangement

5. The suspension of the Turbo S was modeled on the Turbo Cup racecars via the M030 option package. It is focused towards a more performance feel than riding comfort. The suspension arrangement includes front McPherson struts, with rear trailing arms. Front Suspension Adjustable rebound Koni shock absorbers Harder rubber mounts for strut mount and control arms. Height-adjustable spring retainers Stiffer and narrower springs (for clearance). Modified axels to fit new front brakes Front stabilizer Rear Suspension Adjustable rebound Koni shock absorbers Harder rubber mounts for trailing arms Thicker torsion bar As set up, the front track width was 58.2", and the rear was 56.8". The curb weight was 2998 lbs (2976 w/o catalytic converter), with gross vehicle weight of 3626 (3681) lbs.

6. The 944 Turbo S was fitted with the Club Sport wheel rims. These are a flat, forged design with an anodized surface and seven spokes, permitting enhanced brake cooling. Originally equipped with Z rated tires. Wheel Sizes Front 7J x 16 65mm offset Rear 9J x 16 60mm offset Tire Sizes Front 225/50 ZR 16 Rear 245/45 ZR 16

7. Body; Aside from the paint schemes, structural and body changes were added reinforcement plates between the side members as well as the wheel housings. These changes induced modifications to the expansion tank hose, turbo cooling hose, and the ignition coil mount.

8. Dual airbags and power windows complemented the interior options described above.

9. Performance Zero to sixty in 5.4 seconds, ¼ mile in 13.1 seconds, lateral acceleration at .89G, top speed at 162 MPH.

TonyG

I could go on and on about the S vs. the Non S

With respect to the transmission differences:
All 944 turbos could be ordered with the LSD and/or the cooler. In fact many were.

The cooler will make no difference in the life of the transmission unless you run big tracks/autobahn.. for sustained periods of time. No difference on the street.

The LSD... I've owned both types of LSD's. I've never been able to tell the difference :-) Both LSD's lock both wheels approximately the same as far as I can tell.

The hardened gears. Trivial. I've never known anybody that has broken a transmission (not worn out synchros.. broken the transmission due to HP). I've run a 350HP to the wheels non S tranny in my previous 951 with 135k miles on it with no problems.


The clutch:

By the time you buy a used S, the clutch will have been replaced with the same clutch that clutch that almost every 944 turbo gets. The Sachs setup. If it hasn't, it will be soon.


Brakes:

If you're a fast enough driver to out drive the brakes on a regular 944 turbo, then you're the man! 99.9% of the people come nowhere near being able to out drive the regular Brembo 4 piston brakes. Big reds are for looks for the most part, and the bigger brakes add a lot of unsprung weight to the front suspension.

I'm not saying that bigger brakes are bad... it's just that the regular 944 turbo Brembo 4 piston brakes with vented rotors are top notch stuff to begin with.


Suspension:

The M030 spring rates were almost exactly the same as the plain old 968 setup. Same 25.5mm torsion bars, and the front spring rates were almost identical.

If you're serious about racing, the first thing you'll do is to dump both the torsion bars, and front struts and go aftermarket anyway.

I've got a 968. The spring rates are better than the non S cars, but it also rides a lot harsher and I'm not sure that it handles all that much better.

One advantage with the non S torsion bars in a big HP car is the weight transfer, which is good for getting the power down to the ground.


The "larger turbo"

That's the biggest joke of all. The K26/8 turbo is a lot slower in everyday street driving than the K26/6 turbo (the non S). The lag is pretty bad in the turbo S (the lag is bad in all the 944 turbos... it's just worse with the turbo S).

The additional power is not from the larger turbo, but from the higher boost that is run.

You can easily take an aftermarket boost controller, with the non S car and turn up the boost to reach the S car HP level... which ain't much in light of a ton of these cars running aftermarket turbos and other go-fast goodies, making well in excess of 330HP to the wheels (not flywheel) pretty easily.

If you are seriously going to leave the car stock... then get the turbo S. If you're like the rest of us, and can't resist the urge for more power, then get the regular, and put on a REAL turbo and make REAL power!


The Club Sport Rims:

I've got a set I'll sell you cheap. I can't get rid of them at $700! So they must not be that popular. Yes they look good, but so do all the rims that came on these cars.

The problem with the Club Sport rims, is that they are 16". Good for Club Sport PCA/POC rules, but they sure don't look as good as the other aftermarket 17"/18" rims out there.

The advantage to these rims is that they are forged, strong and light. Great for racing where rules make you run stock wheels.

Dual Airbags/Power Windows:

All 944 turbos came with these standard.

So there it is. You'll find that if you're like us, all the "stuff" that the turbo S comes with get's replaced by much higher performance "stuff", thus negating the benifit of purchasing a turbo S in the first place.

If you were to take the difference in price between the turbo S and the standart turbo, then put that difference into the standard turbo, you'd have a car that would run circles around the turbo S all day long.


Good luck with your decision,


TonyG

PS&gt; Let the Flames Begin!!! :-)

blu951

How much you want to sell the club sport rims?

RPG951S

I'd have to respectfully disagree with Tony statement.

While the stock turbo can probably be made as fast, or faster than a turbo S, I don't think it can be done for the same money. What everyone fails to remember is that the specification differenece (in performance pieces alone) is HUGE. To get all the benefits of the S, you'd have to spend wayyyy more than the difference in cost.

Let's compare two like conditioned cars with typical features: Before you comment, yes, you can find an 87T with ABS/LSD & M030. But these rare optioned cars typically go for turboS prices anyways.

Average 1987 951 Turbo: ~ $10K
Non-LSD, Non ABS, Non-M030 Konis

Average 1989 951 TurboS: ~ $15K
LSD, ABS, M030 Konis

I'll go thru the list as I see it:

LSD/NON-LSD: True, on the street, very little difference. On the track (if your experienced enough to know it), you can definately feel the difference.(let's you power out of tight corners much earlier) The cooler is there for a reason.
Racing? Swap out the standard tranny/diff for a built 6-speed from the 968.
Price difference when selling? $1500+ for the LSD, probably &lt;$1000 for the non-LSD.

Clutch: Tony's right on this one. Very little difference. Almost all replaced clutches are the sport type clutch now anyways.

Brakes: Make no mistake here. The S4 brakes are enormously different than the baby brembos on the non-S. Huge. Anyone who seriously tracks their car will tell you that this change alone is very significant.
Racing? Here's where you could save some serious money. The S4 brakes, with proper ducting and pads, is probably good enough for 99% of cars/drivers. But if your going to upgrade, the S4 brakes can get you &gt;$700 when selling, compare to $200(?) for the baby brembos.

Suspension: Once again, maybe not big, but a very pervasive differnce. Bigger, better A-arms, stiffer bushings everywhere. Bigger sway bars. The ride-height adjustment alone is worth $250+install. The S suspension is an excellent compromise for a daily-driven/ocassion track car.
Racing? Pretty much dump everything. Selling a full TurboS suspension (front spindle, shock and spring/ torsionbars/swaybars and rear shocks) are probably worth &gt;$700 on the used market. The non S pieces? $200?

Motor/Turbo: Minor, detail difference, but you definately can make more power with the S setup. I've seen S cars get 290 hp@wheels with just a good chip setup(Miledge). Having driven both an S-car on track, an a non-S, there is very little difference in boost lag. The S is slightly laggier, but makes more thrust.

Wheels: The S wheels are very valuable on the used market. Mint S wheels can go for $1000. Non S wheels probably go for half that amount.

ABS: This alone (to me, and many other people) makes this a moot comparission. ABS, on the street, on the track (in the rain, or for non-professional drivers) is worth it's weight in gold. Definately worth having. Anyone can achieve next to maximum braking easilym and in panic situations, ABS can be a lifesaver. Retrofitting ABS into a non-ABS car would be prohibitively expensive.

&gt;&gt;If you were to take the difference in price between the turbo S and the standart turbo, then put that difference into the standard turbo, you'd have a car that would run circles around the turbo S all day long.

I don't know if this is true. If you include the cost to install these parts, the extra money you'd get back from selling the S parts, and the fact that many, many parts of the S car are so good(you don't really need to change them), I think it's moot. In fact, I'd say, in the long run, it's cheaper to get an S.

Not to mention higher resale value, more desireable (easier to sell, perhaps?) and rarity.

Anyways, my .02c

2+2

I will chime in here because I just aquired 951-S about 3 months ago.

What Tony says its largely true IMHO...if you are going to extensively modify the car and intend to use it for track, you are probably better off with a non-S model.

HOWEVER, the price differential between a VERY GOOD condition non-S and an S is not that much more...maybe about $3500 or so. I found that S's tend to be in much better condition than most non-S's. This may be attributable to owners real/perceived exclusivity of the S cars so that they take care of them better with less miles. Of course, there are plenty of examples of great condition non-S BUT then, they are not priced that much cheaper than the S's....about 3.5K.

Sure you can get a non-S for much cheaper but I have found that they are high miles and not in as good condition...by a significant margin.

Hence, if you are going to heavily mod it and track it, than you should probably get a cheaper non-S and spend the money on upgrades. If you intend to keep it stock, then you should seriously consider the S model.

As for me, I intend only to do mild upgrades so decided on the S.

Good luck.

2+2

You know, I just re-read your original question and you said "if money was no object"......
the above discussions are moot...
I think "if money was no object"....everybody (who is willing to admit it), will want the S model....why the hell not....there is no disadvantage to getting the S except the money.

ninefiveone

If money was no object, I'd get an '86 and modifiy it. The advantage to buying a turboS is that all the options you want are definitely there but it's possible to find an '87-88 model with everything but the turbo and suspension. The suspension you'll definitely throw out due to age and the turbo you'll throw out when you decided to make real power. The 10 Speaker stereo setup still doesn't compare to a well done and tasteful aftermarket install.

LSD: The clutch type LSD that was available for any year 944turbo and standard on the turboS wears out and is pretty old technology. I'd rebuild with a GT torsen diff.

The clutch...TonyG covered that one pretty well and if you're making a lot of power, you'll find some solid arguments for going with a centerforce clutch. No one ever recomends a turboS clutch when it's replacement time.

Brakes... On the street it makes no difference and the lighter weight of the standard brembos will make for better ride and handling. On the track, a good set of pads are all that's required. If you're still fading, you've either got a lot more hp or you're on the brakes too long and light. I've driven turbos at the track with all three brakes and the BigReds are definitely the way to go if you've upped the hp into the 260+rwhp range. You can argue pad size, rotor size and swept area all day long but the bottom line is that BigReds perform better ad especially so at the track.

Suspension: By 60K miles the struts and shocks are getting tired. You'll be replacing them anyway and it's very economical to replace with ride height and rebound adj koni's that use 2.5" coils in any spring rate you desire. On the street, the stiffer bushings and mounts translate to a stiffer ride but at the track, they don't really make a big difference. If you really needed it, you'd go with racer's edge spherical bearing replacements and any one of the race shocks like bilstein, leda or JRZ.

Turbo: There's a reason so many tuners have so many turbo upgrades...

Dual Airbags: Seeing as how the youngest of these cars is now about 13 years old, I'd rather not have those airbags on the street. People think an airbag is a miracle safety device. It's not. Wearing your seatbelt properly will do far more to save you in an accident then an airbag. On the track, they're just added weight AND I've seen two of them go off. Not only is it a pretty dangerous thing to happen while you're tracking the car, one can also factor in the cost of replacing the windshield that just got shattered by the bag. At a minimum I'd yank the fuse.

Every 944turbo (except cup cars) has power windows. Not every 944turbo has power locks that were standard on turboS's but that's an easy retrofit and you can add keyless entry while you're at it.

Performance figures: Go find me a stock US turboS that turns those numbers and I'll buy it sight unseen. Everyone should be aware those numbers were turned out by a euro turboS with an optional shorter final drive than US cars.

Early offset vs late offset: If you're just driving on the street, I'd want late offset for the wider selection of modern OEM wheels. If you're tracking it, I'd take early offset so you can run fuchs. Either offset you can run light and strong rims like fikse if you need larger rims. I'm a firm believer that light wheels are actually more important on the street than on the track. Heavy wheels make for a terrible ride. I'd still prefer a light wheel regardless of the situation but my laptimes were minimally affected by heavier wheels. My ride on the street, however, was definitely affected.

ABS: I enjoy being able to outbrake most other cars at the track despite not having ABS but I'll freely admit I'd be much more consistent with ABS than without.

Long story short:

-Know what you want to do with the car. If you want to have a mildly mod'd street car, I'd be more concerned with appearance and condition. There's something to be said for being a good steward to an unmolested and/or easily returnable to stock spec turboS but I find regular turbo's to be much more enjoyable in day to day driving than turboS's.

-If you're tracking the car and will only mildly mod it, then a turboS in good condition is the right car if for no other reasons than the LSD and ability to hold more boost to redline.

-If you're really serious about tracking the car, get an '86 and save 100+lbs right off the bat. You'll be replacing everything that makes a turboS what it is.

ziominix

Wow, thanks for all the info. I can now make a more educated decision.

Bryan

TonyG

Here's an example:

Non S - Can be had for $10k all day with LSD, ABS, Trans Cooler.

S - Can be had for $15k

Ok Now here's what I would do with the $5k difference to make the non S run circles around the S:


Turbo - $1500 - Garrett or K276/6. Both can put out at least 345HP to the wheels.

Manual Boost Controller - $50

Chips - Used @ $200

Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator - $150

Bursch Test Pipe - $225

ARC2 Fuel Controller - $550

A/F Gauge - $50

Aftermarket boost gauge - $50

Huntley Raciing gauge panel - $70 (mounts your boost controller, a/f gauge, and boost gauge under the radio)

Intercooler Pipe Kit using stock Air Meter - $600

Huntley Racing Coil Over Kit at all 4 wheels - Trick, split valve adjustable, ride height adjustable, and more.... Will run circles around S suspension all day - $1850

New cross drilled rotors - $110 each


Subtotal: $5135.00 (you do the labor) (you could probably get a good discount if you bought everything from one source, plus Huntley Racing is about to start offering a 5% discount on anything purchased through their online store. This alone is enough to get the cost well below the $5k mark.

This setup will easily make 325HP to the wheels which will smoke a S car. Boost sooner, and boost longer effectively increasing the "area under the curve".

The suspension would kill that of the S suspension, and the brakes would be not quite as good, but still very good.

Translation: Much faster, better handling car.


Additionally, you get a new turbo, not used, new rotors, not used, new struts, shocks, and springs, new etc..... you get the point.

TonyG

Part 2.. sorry


With respect to my previous post addressing the differences in the cars...

Specifically the LSD - What I meant to say was that there was no noticable difference in either performance or reliability with respect to the non S LSD and the S LSD.

TonyG

Part 3 :-) heheeh


The difference is at least $5k on average since you can get non S cars with LSD, Tranny Coolers, and ABS for much less than $10k here in the Los Angeles area. I've seen several.