History of 951 at Le Mans
02-22-2002, 12:19 PM
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History of 951 at Le Mans
I've read of the prototype for the 944 Turbo placing 6th at Le Mans in 1980-81. I've also read of its rich heritage in other international endurance races. Where can I locate pictures and other information documenting the racing history for our "it's not a Porsche" 951's. It would be nice to have some large posters of a 951 or it's lineage in the heat of battle at Le Mans, or a comparable international racing venue 
02-22-2002, 01:10 PM
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O.K....not allot of interest in this I guess. Well here is a start if you can read a little French!
<a href="http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/p10g-6.htm" target="_blank">http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/p10g-6.htm</a>
<a href="http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/p10g-6.htm" target="_blank">http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/p10g-6.htm</a>
<a href="http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/p10g-6.htm" target="_blank">http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/p10g-6.htm</a>
<a href="http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/p10g-6.htm" target="_blank">http://perso.club-internet.fr/flegende/p10g-6.htm</a>
02-22-2002, 02:42 PM
#3
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Also only the 924GTP had the 944-based turbo engine. The GTR had the 924 turbo engine. We got cheated, even in the very beginning, Porsche used a 16-valve head on the turbocharged 944 engine. It never ever showed up in production. Now the guys who are turbocharging 968 engines are seeing 400-500rwhp! It would have been nice to have a 300hp engine in the 951 when it was introduced...
02-22-2002, 04:09 PM
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The GTP car appears to have faired the best.
Take a look at this site. 1980-1982
<a href="http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk/results.html" target="_blank">http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk/results.html</a>
Interesting competition.
Also interesting from a technology perspective. We are driving some of the best endurance racing technology available....in 1982.
I was allot faster back in 1982 too!
Take a look at this site. 1980-1982
<a href="http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk/results.html" target="_blank">http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk/results.html</a>
Interesting competition.
Also interesting from a technology perspective. We are driving some of the best endurance racing technology available....in 1982.
I was allot faster back in 1982 too!
02-22-2002, 09:34 PM
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In Greg Brown's shop (Precision Motorwerks, in Anaheim) there is the Trans-Am winning 944-GTR. The car is in a bubble and is museum quality. I believe EFR was driving this car. It produces 650-700 H/P from the 8 valve motor. GTR heads are worth their weight in gold. The intake ports remind me of my old Boss 429, only larger. An absolutely gorgeous car and with quite a histoy. The workmanship in Greg's shop was, for me, outstanding. If anyone stops by the shop, check out the size of the turbo on that beast. It's the size of an end table and reminds me of the ones used on CART cars, at least for one more year.
02-27-2002, 07:47 PM
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Here's a good book with alot of small pics but great detail about the racing heritage:
PORSCHE 924,944 & 968 by Michael Cotton
ISBN 1899870474
Motor Racing Publications LTD
Unit 6
The Pilton Estate
46 Pitlake
Croydon CR0 3 RY, England
Also Joe at PAP in Georgia has an original poster of the 944T's the year the Porsche Cup used them...but I don't think he'll part with it...I tryed and I've looked at every booth at places like the Rennsport Reunion and have never found any poster size stuff
PORSCHE 924,944 & 968 by Michael Cotton
ISBN 1899870474
Motor Racing Publications LTD
Unit 6
The Pilton Estate
46 Pitlake
Croydon CR0 3 RY, England
Also Joe at PAP in Georgia has an original poster of the 944T's the year the Porsche Cup used them...but I don't think he'll part with it...I tryed and I've looked at every booth at places like the Rennsport Reunion and have never found any poster size stuff
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01-01-2003, 06:19 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>... We got cheated, even in the very beginning, Porsche used a 16-valve head on the turbocharged 944 engine. It never ever showed up in production....</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>... We got cheated, even in the very beginning, Porsche used a 16-valve head on the turbocharged 944 engine. It never ever showed up in production....</strong><hr></blockquote>
01-01-2003, 09:19 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by 86944turbo:
<strong>In Greg Brown's shop (Precision Motorwerks, in Anaheim) there is the Trans-Am winning 944-GTR. The car is in a bubble and is museum quality. I believe EFR was driving this car. It produces 650-700 H/P from the 8 valve motor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
IIRC, the factory 924GTR put out 375 hp. This one must by a hybrid. Not that a hybrid is bad, but I'll take the original.
Mike
<strong>In Greg Brown's shop (Precision Motorwerks, in Anaheim) there is the Trans-Am winning 944-GTR. The car is in a bubble and is museum quality. I believe EFR was driving this car. It produces 650-700 H/P from the 8 valve motor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
IIRC, the factory 924GTR put out 375 hp. This one must by a hybrid. Not that a hybrid is bad, but I'll take the original.
Mike
01-01-2003, 09:25 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Jaxon:
<strong>The GTP car appears to have faired the best.
Take a look at this site. 1980-1982
<a href="http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk/results.html" target="_blank">http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk/results.html</a>
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jaxon...great link...just added it to my favorites!
Mike
<strong>The GTP car appears to have faired the best.
Take a look at this site. 1980-1982
<a href="http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk/results.html" target="_blank">http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk/results.html</a>
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jaxon...great link...just added it to my favorites!
Mike
01-01-2003, 10:50 PM
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My friend worked in that shop for greg brown and has some very detailed pictures of that car. It did make between 600 to 700 HP and I will have to check with my friend again but there were only 6 made and on the race track it went past all the 911 turbos. I think it was a 2.5 liter 16 valve engine with solid lifters and a very large garret. This car is why I once brought up a tread saying that these cars are capable of much more than the common 300 HP. There are and have been too many 4 cylinder engines that make well over 400+ hp and the 951 can too once the right people get interested.
01-01-2003, 11:30 PM
#12
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[quote]Originally posted by white 944 turbo:
<strong>My friend worked in that shop for greg brown and has some very detailed pictures of that car.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Post pics.
<strong>My friend worked in that shop for greg brown and has some very detailed pictures of that car.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Post pics.
01-02-2003, 02:06 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Transaxle:
<strong>
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right click, save as...
There are a couple of very interesting things that I notice in this picture.
Looks like they are running the alternator directly off of the intake cam with a toothed belt. Also, obviously they are using a belt to link the cams together. It doesn't appear that there is a way to make fine adjustments to cam timing, but perhaps they custom machine the keyway cutout on one of the cam pulleys to make this adjustment.
Normal plumbing that runs to heat exchanger is simply plumbed from the radiator directly to the head with braided line.
Throttle body looks big. I can't tell how big the intercooler, or what arrangement it has, but oddly enough, it looks like it is connected to the turbo with a rather long piece of rubber tubing.
No strut tower brace in this picture, but the strut towers are nicely braced to the firewall.
Looks like the filter almost mounts directly to the block. This engine probably is dry sumped with an external oil pump and these lines run to an oil cooler, rather than from the housing near the oil filter. I suspect that what I think is the alternator, is actually an external oil pump. The toothed belt, and the fact that it isn't mounted low like a non a/c equipped 944 engine would be also suggest this. Perhaps the alternator sits at the back of the car running off of the gearbox input shaft.
The balance shafts are still in place. Perhaps the factory knows something about the destructive forces involved when running uncompensated... or not.
Looks like the turbo is mounted somewhere on the right side or possibly even behind the engine. I'm guessing that the wastegate signal line is plumbed to a **** in the cockpit.
Big intake manifold with a real plenum, and no brake booster or coolant reservoir to get in the way. Can't quite tell where the fuel injectors sit.
<strong>
</strong><hr></blockquote>Right click, save as...
There are a couple of very interesting things that I notice in this picture.
Looks like they are running the alternator directly off of the intake cam with a toothed belt. Also, obviously they are using a belt to link the cams together. It doesn't appear that there is a way to make fine adjustments to cam timing, but perhaps they custom machine the keyway cutout on one of the cam pulleys to make this adjustment.
Normal plumbing that runs to heat exchanger is simply plumbed from the radiator directly to the head with braided line.
Throttle body looks big. I can't tell how big the intercooler, or what arrangement it has, but oddly enough, it looks like it is connected to the turbo with a rather long piece of rubber tubing.
No strut tower brace in this picture, but the strut towers are nicely braced to the firewall.
Looks like the filter almost mounts directly to the block. This engine probably is dry sumped with an external oil pump and these lines run to an oil cooler, rather than from the housing near the oil filter. I suspect that what I think is the alternator, is actually an external oil pump. The toothed belt, and the fact that it isn't mounted low like a non a/c equipped 944 engine would be also suggest this. Perhaps the alternator sits at the back of the car running off of the gearbox input shaft.
The balance shafts are still in place. Perhaps the factory knows something about the destructive forces involved when running uncompensated... or not.
Looks like the turbo is mounted somewhere on the right side or possibly even behind the engine. I'm guessing that the wastegate signal line is plumbed to a **** in the cockpit.
Big intake manifold with a real plenum, and no brake booster or coolant reservoir to get in the way. Can't quite tell where the fuel injectors sit.
01-02-2003, 06:15 AM
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Jaxon we are talking about the "limited production model" 924 carrera GT here. It sure can be seen as a step towards the 944, but so can the "normal" 924...
The looks of the car pretty much reminds of the 944, but it still had the VW engine.
The standard Carrera GT had 210 bhp @ 6000 rpm. The GTS produced 245-280 bhp, depending on model. It had an aluminium transaxle tube and coil spring rear suspension(!) with cast aluminium trailing arms. The brakes all around were ventilated and cross bored and used 911 turbo hubs. It had glass-fibre bonnet, doors, fender wings and bumpers. Both the GT and the GTS versions were fully road legal.
The ultimate 924 Carrera version was the GTR, derived from the original Le Mans model. It was a pure racer with 375 bhp.
The looks of the car pretty much reminds of the 944, but it still had the VW engine.
The standard Carrera GT had 210 bhp @ 6000 rpm. The GTS produced 245-280 bhp, depending on model. It had an aluminium transaxle tube and coil spring rear suspension(!) with cast aluminium trailing arms. The brakes all around were ventilated and cross bored and used 911 turbo hubs. It had glass-fibre bonnet, doors, fender wings and bumpers. Both the GT and the GTS versions were fully road legal.
The ultimate 924 Carrera version was the GTR, derived from the original Le Mans model. It was a pure racer with 375 bhp.
01-02-2003, 06:33 AM
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Nico,
you are right with the history of the 937 and 939 types. But the engine shown here is from the 1981 competition car "944 GTP" raced by Röhrl and Barth. It is a 2.5l 16V engine with dry-sump oiling system. The engine block is similar to the later 944 - but the 16V head was a special development from the race department.
The 1980 cars were the three 924 LeMan, based on the 2.0l Audi engine. The later 924 GTR is more or less a replica of the LeMan cars. Here's a 924GTR engine to compare:
you are right with the history of the 937 and 939 types. But the engine shown here is from the 1981 competition car "944 GTP" raced by Röhrl and Barth. It is a 2.5l 16V engine with dry-sump oiling system. The engine block is similar to the later 944 - but the 16V head was a special development from the race department.
The 1980 cars were the three 924 LeMan, based on the 2.0l Audi engine. The later 924 GTR is more or less a replica of the LeMan cars. Here's a 924GTR engine to compare: