BC

I am currently doing quite a bit of research involving all the aftermarket engine management choices out there today. From the english DTA
<a href="http://www.dtafast.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.dtafast.co.uk</a>
to the australian motec:
<a href="http://www.motec.com" target="_blank">www.motec.com</a>

from the Accell DFI, to the much spoken-of haltech and TECIIIs.

I have not come to any realization at all about which system gives the most bang for the buck, or which is easists to control, or anything like that.

I am at a loss as to how to make the choice. Some boost heads here use SDS. Others swear by TECII (TECIII now) - and still others say, "If you want it to work right, you spend the money and get the MOTEC"

PLease advise here on th elist of ANYBODY has had ANY experience about any or all systems like these. Heresay, thirdparty drivel, "his mother's brother used it and hated it..." is welcome.
BTW - I need electronic boost control, preferrably distributorless ignition, and other toys like that.

TIA,
Brendan Campion

Konstantin

I think the chepaest that works is the SDS. if you want a better one with more option that is not very expensive you can get the DTA.
all others are much more expensive and a very $$$ Motec do not give any advandage for a street/track car unless you build a full racer and care for every pony.

Konstantin

aka 951

On a street car I still don't understand why people go standalone. Seems like a whole lot of money for something that can easily be done with a set of chips.

rage2

[quote]Originally posted by aka 951:
<strong>On a street car I still don't understand why people go standalone. Seems like a whole lot of money for something that can easily be done with a set of chips.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. Cheaper than MAF
2. No intake restriction
3. Tuned for YOUR engine.
4. Changes (new injectors, turbo, etc) can be dialed in quickly.

Only drawback I can see is install/tuning time, and the magnet sensor install.

Why did I go SDS? Price. Simplicity. Support. It works. =)

Alan C.

The chips won't do it right period. They will do it ok. All you have to do is look at an air fuel ratio curve for a car with chips and one with a stand alone. The typical set of chips will start a little lean then go really rich and end up going lean at the top end.

I will back up a bit and say that if you want to put the car on a dyno and custom burn a set you may get a better air/fuel curve. Or you could play with the ARC2 and get a 'reasonable' curve. But the minute you make a change it's all bets off.

Like Rage said you have the ability to tune to whatever. Injectors, turbo, fuel etc.

I've looked at most systems and I'm going with the Tec3. Absolutely the most bang for the buck. At the modest priced end I'd either go for the SDS or the Link system.

The cheapest upgrade I ever made was going with the right equipment the first time around.

Alan

aka 951

I'll just leave it at this...a proper set of chips in a Motronic can support over 700 hp reliably. Ever wonder what the 962s used for engine management and boost control?

rage2

[quote]Originally posted by aka 951:
<strong>I'll just leave it at this...a proper set of chips in a Motronic can support over 700 hp reliably. Ever wonder what the 962s used for engine management and boost control?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you here completely, but that's not why I went aftermarket EFI. Problem is, who burns custom chips for you tailored to YOUR engine? If I had access to a chip burner (I do) along with the software to change the fuel maps for the chip (I don't), using chips and stock computer would make sense, I would have the same tunability as a standalone EFI system.

Since that's only possible for folks that make their own chips (Huntley, Autothority, SFR), and I don't plan on driving 3000 miles to burn a set of chips for the mods that I have today, aftermarket EFI makes all the sense in the world.

And if you want to use the stock computer and make your own chips, the <a href="http://www.bonnevillemotorwerks.com/dmeedit.html" target="_blank">DME Editor</a> software from Bonneville would be pretty close to what you would need to tweak your stock chips like one would tweak an aftermarket EFI system. Of course you'll be burning and replacing chips with every change, where I'll be changing my maps real time with my LCD unit.... =)

BC

Hello,

Thanks for the responses so far. I guess I should clarify a bit. This will be for an engine that was not previousl boosted. Even if the engine was NOT boosted, I think think that Aftermarket EFIs are really the cat's meow when it comes to full control over any changes. Even if someone had a NA engine with baic mods - those mods owuld be better utilized when he or she controlled the engine management more finitely.

Truthfully, I am another one of those pesky 928 guys that likes to ask the 944 turbo guys questions. You know why? Because you guys EXPERIMENT. You guys test things, and swap stuff. On the average, 928 people don't do that. There are the exceptions, but mostly, to have them change thier headers, and buy some bigger wheels, its like deciding who to marry.

I will be slowly working towards getting my 928 ready for boost. The last step will be to rebuild the bottom end with forged items. But the money spent for engine management will be quite early in the project, as I will benefit from the cnages made along the way more completely.

I have an issue with the amount of money that MOTEC wants for thier system. I live within spitting sistance of SFR, so I know they could handle any TECIII stuff I do, but the SDS, DTA, and DFI stuff interests me as well. I am planning on controlling the boost (SC) in a way that is not usually done. I am planning on making sure that the pulley is not the only item controlling maximum boost. There are items on the market that act as both BOV AND intake side wastegates. These interest me.

ANyway, back to the EFI debate. Anybody else have any comments? Thanks for the previous ones.
Brendan Campion
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

aka 951

The program is called Distrial and it's available from Protomotive (big time Porsche tuner as yu probably know - mostly 911s). To live tune you use what's called an emulator. Its a one-shot deal with the chip burning once you get your set-up. Plain and simple the best way to tune one of these motors but not many people know of it.

Alan C.

I've got a set of Protomotive chips and they have the roller coaster fuel curve.

As to the 700hp Motronic. A friend that used to run in IMSA and won showed me his Motronic. As I recall that little piece of electronics was way up into the thousands of dollars. I could by all my friends a Tec3 For the price of admission.

Brendon, I will be using the Tec3 on a 968NA to turbo conversion next Fall. Let's see I wonder where I'd get a factory motronic for that one? Just haveing fun AKA951

rage2

I think what AKA951 is talking about is using the existing Motronic unit in our cars to tune the car by modifying the fuel/spark maps on the eeprom/flash chips, not getting a replacement high end motronic unit. Assuming the price of the software, emulation kit and eeprom burner is the same as a standalone system, you would save a lot of time in installation and debugging wiring issues.

The only concern I have with using the stock system are posts I've seen regarding large injectors (larger than 52#) with the stock system at idle. I'm not sure if it's because our Motronic boxes don't have a fine enough tuning range for such a short duty cycle, or if it's never been done properly.

Otherwise it is definately an option, although not popular.

Danno

Now that Speedforce Racing is offering free dyno-time and custom-burned chips, I'd look into custom chips if you don't plan on making constant upgrades to your car. A couple of hundred bucks definitely sounds like a good value.

IanM

There are many ways to go about it. Alan - I wouldn't say that tuning an ARC2 can only provide a "reasonable" fuel curve. I'd say that with adequately sized injectors and an adjustable fpr, an MAF w/ ARC2 combo can give excellent results. Here's the data from one of my dyno runs from the Seattle Dyno Day last weekend. This run was at 18psi of boost. Air:fuel ratios don't get much better than that.

rpm hp torque air:fuel
2200 53.7 128.3 14.3
2300 62.4 142.5 14.7
2400 71.5 156.4 14.6
2500 79.6 167.3 14.3
2600 89.1 180 14.1
2700 99.3 193.2 13.8
2800 110.4 207.1 13.7
2900 124.5 225.4 13.5
3000 140.3 245.7 13.5
3100 155.8 263.9 13.4
3200 167.5 274.8 13.2
3300 174.4 277.6 12.9
3400 184 284.3 12.8
3500 194.3 291.6 12.6
3600 206.7 301.6 12.5
3700 221.4 314.2 12.4
3800 231.1 319.4 12.4
3900 235.4 317 12.4
4000 242.9 319 12.4
4100 245.9 315.1 12.4
4200 258.2 322.8 12.4
4250 259.35 323 12.3
4300 260.5 318.2 12.3
4400 264.4 315.6 12.4
4500 274 319.7 12.4
4600 274 312.9 12.4
4700 279.6 312.5 12.5
4800 284 310.7 12.5
4900 289.6 310.4 12.5
5000 294.8 309.7 12.6
5100 293.3 302.1 12.6
5200 301.4 304.4 12.6
5300 303 300.2 12.6
5400 307.2 298.8 12.5
5500 308.2 294.4 12.5
5600 315.7 296.1 12.5
5700 315 290.2 12.4
5800 316.3 286.4 12.4
5900 318.6 283.6 12.5
5950 324.5 280.35 12.5
6000 316.6 277.1 12.6
6100 319 274.7 12.6
6200 315.4 267.2 12.4
6300 313.3 261.2 12.4
6400 312 256 12.3
6500 314.1 253.8 12.3
6600 306.6 244 12.3
6700 307.8 241.3 12.3
6800 305.4 235.8 12.2

Danno

Here's a picture of Ian's dyno data. Looks about as perfect as you can get:



Good job Ian!

Konstantin

@Rage2
I checked the DME Editor page but it says: (no longer available)
Do you have a copy of it or someone else knows where to find this?
I wnat to play with it. It sounds interesting
Konstantin