Mods for 87 951
12-18-2002, 04:51 AM
#62
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Derrek, what is the differece between your maf and Lindsey Racing's digital maf besides the price. I priced the maf at LR and with everything included, including an air/fuel gauge, it is 1100$. Why is yours so much more?
12-18-2002, 05:07 AM
#63
Race Director
Gee golly 
... while we've always been careful to expound on the benefits of our products and not defame anyone else's, apparently our competitors and their buddies don't feel the same. Even the Lindseys have been bad-mouthing us and what have we ever done to them?
So some more clarifications on the differences between our products and the others' blanket claims so no one's confused by lumping ALL MAP-based products into one category... but first some background:
"is this AFM-Link MAP unit the 3 bar MAP sensor that Link sells?"
"and since you're not using InterceptLinks with your kits, you are using none of the same components..."
No, the AFM-Link is not just a MAP-sensor. It is a complete digital computer that replaces the stock restrictive AFM and incorporates its own built-in MAP-sensor (this is the future*). In fact, it's the bigger brother of the Intercept-Link because it does not require an external air-flow sensor, but rather uses more advanced digital electronics to compute and air-flow signal. The 1st-generation generic AFM-Link box had signal interception/massaging capabilities using 3D mapping just like the Intercept-Link and could be used to modify a MAF or AFM signal. This eclipsed the Intercept-Link since that unit only performed a subset of the AFM-Link's functions. We also carry the Intercept-Link to upgrade legacy analog-MAF kits to dgital-MAF. If you haven't figured it out, the 2nd-gen. AFM-Link MAP unit and the Intercept-Link massager performs two completely different functions.
With our involvement and stirring renewed interest in the AFM-Link, the product was refined and made into a 951-specific unit. Rather than using 3 generic mathematical equations to compute an air-flow signal, the 2nd-generation unit uses a look-up table created by datalogging a stock 951 AFM. This unit is now a direct drop-in replacement for the stock AFM with identical voltage-responses, thus requiring very little adjustments to install.
"Sorry to burst your bubble there Danno... but you're not the only place that carries MAP kits for 944s."
Of course I never said that we were the 'only place' that carries MAP kits. Perhaps just <a href="http://www.gururacing.net/RennlistThreads/020523MAPsensorUpgrade1a.pdf" target="_blank">one of the first</a> that installed an AFM-Link box on a 951. Sorry, I should have said "Check out the R&D history behind the 951 MAP kit..." BTW, Huntley used one on his SC kit but never told anyone, probably rubbed the labeling off too.
"The Huntley MAP kits offer slighty more power (1%-5% in most applications) than the MAF but ALL MAP SYSTEMS, ours and others suffer from low speed instability which for many street cars is undesireable. "
I think it's mistaken to speak in qualitative, all-encompassing, black & white, all-or-nothing, terms like 'ALL' this and that. You have not been at a single one of our <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=010896" target="_blank">Pizza Runs and Dyno Days</a> to experience our kit, so how can you say something about 'ALL MAP SYSTEMS' (does this include MAP-sensors used on EFI systems too?). I think you should contract that sentence to say, "The Huntley MAP kits offer slighty more power (1%-5% in most applications) than the MAF but [The Huntley MAP] suffer from low speed instability which for many street cars is undesireable. " since you have had no personal experience with anyone's kit but yours**. That will at least remove the blanket statement and make it specific to your experiences. After all, are ALL BLONDES DUMB?
* Now one distinction should be made between our AFM-replacement product and standalone EFI systems that use an external MAP-sensor in the engine-bay. This implementation is what partly causes the idle, low-speed instability, and stumbling problems that others have had (remember, we've cured this). I'm going to give away yet another freebie to get the others up to speed on MAP implementation solutions. Aside from the EMF interference in the engine-bay, having the MAP-sensor too close to the intake-manifold will cause it to pick up unstable and conflicting pressure pulses from cam-overlap and valve-closures. So the trick is to have a line of an optimal diameter and distance away from the manifold. Also, you cannot simply use a soft rubber vacuum hose.
The second part of the low-speed driveability issues that's constantly brought up is caused by programming. There IS a way to tune settings in the chips and MAP-sensor's 3D map to remove this problem. Those with actual hands-on experience with our MAP kits should be the best judge:
**
<a href="http://http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=012300" target="_blank">" As programmed by Guru, I had a stumble off idle which was easily rectified once Travis pointed me in the right direction. I also had a leaky throttle idle air valve and maladjusted TPS which complicated the issue somewhat, but once fixed I now have very strong takeaway from idle and quick spooling of turbo.
The difference from stock is in tractability, which is of course the characteristic of a high torque motor, and it starts from surprisingly low down. I commute daily up and down a canyon that rises 2000'with 6 - 8% grades and I never get beaten to the top, in either 4th or 5th. It's the best part of the day! "</a> -- bern86951
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002444" target="_blank">"We had some initial problems with the increased fuel pressure, but with the map kit (I bought the fuel controller, and serial interface), it was very simple to fix this. (Lots of fun drives to test!, can you say radar detector?) Now for the good stuff:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002444" target="_blank">"Driveability? Great question. I found that the car feels factory smooth with the kit. The pedal likes being eased into on initial launch, but that's the behaviour I'm used to with the stock set-up as well. The engine returns to idle immediately, far better than the Weltmeister chip set-up. The power feels very even and smooth."</a> -- Steve Cooper --> <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003134" target="_blank">Updated</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002839" target="_blank">"When I finally got to drive it on a dry day, I was impressed. My driveability was better (still need a new TPS though) The kit took 1000rpm from my spool up time, my turbo now hits hard at 3000rpm. With some final tuning it should hit hard a 2800rpm. Before it would hit at about 4000-4500rpm, mostly due to the big restriction and bad air fuel/ratio. And this is all at 14PSI of boost, I cant wait to see what it will do at 18and 20PSI when I get bigger injectors."</a> -- sean bartsch
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002669" target="_blank">"Intially due to california/non-cal car coded chips, my kit caused a little stumble off of idle due to a lean fuel condition. ... Danno & Travis sent me out a new chip along with the hand held programmer and walked my through how to change the mapping for idle. It now idles better than when I had Autothority chips and the banjo bolt setup.
Not only does it idle better, the throttle response coupled with faster building boost makes my car WAY faster than it was before."</a> -- Jason_86_951
Yup, all those reports sounds like "low speed instability" to me. Anyone who's having problems with low-speed issues with their MAP installation (AFM-replacement or standalone EFI) just have to re-read this thread as I've slyly dropped clues on how to solve this problem, heh, heh...
I've offered this solution several times now, but the "low speed instability" keeps on getting brought up, so I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. It's like some people who are trying to break the sound-barrier with prop-planes. They beat their heads against the problem over and over again. Then at the end, they triumphantly proclaim, "The sound-barrier can't be broken by a plane, only rockets". Meanwhile, I've been saying all along, "pssst... you need a jet.. hey.. you need a jet..." Maybe someday someone will catch on
.
And perhaps even more important than GURU Racing offering quality products at affordable prices, the best thing we have to offer our customers is excellent support. One only has to browse the various 'GURU' threads on here to see that and we're looking forward to having even more satisfied users of GURU Racing Products <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> !
P.S. "keep up your candy bar sales and you might accumulate enough points to win that bicycle "
Uh, have you checked out the stock-price of <a href="http://www.danschocolates.com" target="_blank">Dan's Chocolates</a> lately?
... while we've always been careful to expound on the benefits of our products and not defame anyone else's, apparently our competitors and their buddies don't feel the same. Even the Lindseys have been bad-mouthing us and what have we ever done to them?So some more clarifications on the differences between our products and the others' blanket claims so no one's confused by lumping ALL MAP-based products into one category... but first some background:
"is this AFM-Link MAP unit the 3 bar MAP sensor that Link sells?"
"and since you're not using InterceptLinks with your kits, you are using none of the same components..."
No, the AFM-Link is not just a MAP-sensor. It is a complete digital computer that replaces the stock restrictive AFM and incorporates its own built-in MAP-sensor (this is the future*). In fact, it's the bigger brother of the Intercept-Link because it does not require an external air-flow sensor, but rather uses more advanced digital electronics to compute and air-flow signal. The 1st-generation generic AFM-Link box had signal interception/massaging capabilities using 3D mapping just like the Intercept-Link and could be used to modify a MAF or AFM signal. This eclipsed the Intercept-Link since that unit only performed a subset of the AFM-Link's functions. We also carry the Intercept-Link to upgrade legacy analog-MAF kits to dgital-MAF. If you haven't figured it out, the 2nd-gen. AFM-Link MAP unit and the Intercept-Link massager performs two completely different functions.
With our involvement and stirring renewed interest in the AFM-Link, the product was refined and made into a 951-specific unit. Rather than using 3 generic mathematical equations to compute an air-flow signal, the 2nd-generation unit uses a look-up table created by datalogging a stock 951 AFM. This unit is now a direct drop-in replacement for the stock AFM with identical voltage-responses, thus requiring very little adjustments to install.
"Sorry to burst your bubble there Danno... but you're not the only place that carries MAP kits for 944s."
Of course I never said that we were the 'only place' that carries MAP kits. Perhaps just <a href="http://www.gururacing.net/RennlistThreads/020523MAPsensorUpgrade1a.pdf" target="_blank">one of the first</a> that installed an AFM-Link box on a 951. Sorry, I should have said "Check out the R&D history behind the 951 MAP kit..." BTW, Huntley used one on his SC kit but never told anyone, probably rubbed the labeling off too.
"The Huntley MAP kits offer slighty more power (1%-5% in most applications) than the MAF but ALL MAP SYSTEMS, ours and others suffer from low speed instability which for many street cars is undesireable. "
I think it's mistaken to speak in qualitative, all-encompassing, black & white, all-or-nothing, terms like 'ALL' this and that. You have not been at a single one of our <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=010896" target="_blank">Pizza Runs and Dyno Days</a> to experience our kit, so how can you say something about 'ALL MAP SYSTEMS' (does this include MAP-sensors used on EFI systems too?). I think you should contract that sentence to say, "The Huntley MAP kits offer slighty more power (1%-5% in most applications) than the MAF but [The Huntley MAP] suffer from low speed instability which for many street cars is undesireable. " since you have had no personal experience with anyone's kit but yours**. That will at least remove the blanket statement and make it specific to your experiences. After all, are ALL BLONDES DUMB?
* Now one distinction should be made between our AFM-replacement product and standalone EFI systems that use an external MAP-sensor in the engine-bay. This implementation is what partly causes the idle, low-speed instability, and stumbling problems that others have had (remember, we've cured this). I'm going to give away yet another freebie to get the others up to speed on MAP implementation solutions. Aside from the EMF interference in the engine-bay, having the MAP-sensor too close to the intake-manifold will cause it to pick up unstable and conflicting pressure pulses from cam-overlap and valve-closures. So the trick is to have a line of an optimal diameter and distance away from the manifold. Also, you cannot simply use a soft rubber vacuum hose.
The second part of the low-speed driveability issues that's constantly brought up is caused by programming. There IS a way to tune settings in the chips and MAP-sensor's 3D map to remove this problem. Those with actual hands-on experience with our MAP kits should be the best judge:
**
<a href="http://http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=012300" target="_blank">" As programmed by Guru, I had a stumble off idle which was easily rectified once Travis pointed me in the right direction. I also had a leaky throttle idle air valve and maladjusted TPS which complicated the issue somewhat, but once fixed I now have very strong takeaway from idle and quick spooling of turbo.
The difference from stock is in tractability, which is of course the characteristic of a high torque motor, and it starts from surprisingly low down. I commute daily up and down a canyon that rises 2000'with 6 - 8% grades and I never get beaten to the top, in either 4th or 5th. It's the best part of the day! "</a> -- bern86951
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002444" target="_blank">"We had some initial problems with the increased fuel pressure, but with the map kit (I bought the fuel controller, and serial interface), it was very simple to fix this. (Lots of fun drives to test!, can you say radar detector?) Now for the good stuff:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002444" target="_blank">"Driveability? Great question. I found that the car feels factory smooth with the kit. The pedal likes being eased into on initial launch, but that's the behaviour I'm used to with the stock set-up as well. The engine returns to idle immediately, far better than the Weltmeister chip set-up. The power feels very even and smooth."</a> -- Steve Cooper --> <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003134" target="_blank">Updated</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002839" target="_blank">"When I finally got to drive it on a dry day, I was impressed. My driveability was better (still need a new TPS though) The kit took 1000rpm from my spool up time, my turbo now hits hard at 3000rpm. With some final tuning it should hit hard a 2800rpm. Before it would hit at about 4000-4500rpm, mostly due to the big restriction and bad air fuel/ratio. And this is all at 14PSI of boost, I cant wait to see what it will do at 18and 20PSI when I get bigger injectors."</a> -- sean bartsch
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002669" target="_blank">"Intially due to california/non-cal car coded chips, my kit caused a little stumble off of idle due to a lean fuel condition. ... Danno & Travis sent me out a new chip along with the hand held programmer and walked my through how to change the mapping for idle. It now idles better than when I had Autothority chips and the banjo bolt setup.
Not only does it idle better, the throttle response coupled with faster building boost makes my car WAY faster than it was before."</a> -- Jason_86_951
Yup, all those reports sounds like "low speed instability" to me. Anyone who's having problems with low-speed issues with their MAP installation (AFM-replacement or standalone EFI) just have to re-read this thread as I've slyly dropped clues on how to solve this problem, heh, heh...
I've offered this solution several times now, but the "low speed instability" keeps on getting brought up, so I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. It's like some people who are trying to break the sound-barrier with prop-planes. They beat their heads against the problem over and over again. Then at the end, they triumphantly proclaim, "The sound-barrier can't be broken by a plane, only rockets". Meanwhile, I've been saying all along, "pssst... you need a jet.. hey.. you need a jet..." Maybe someday someone will catch on
.And perhaps even more important than GURU Racing offering quality products at affordable prices, the best thing we have to offer our customers is excellent support. One only has to browse the various 'GURU' threads on here to see that and we're looking forward to having even more satisfied users of GURU Racing Products <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> !
P.S. "keep up your candy bar sales and you might accumulate enough points to win that bicycle "
Uh, have you checked out the stock-price of <a href="http://www.danschocolates.com" target="_blank">Dan's Chocolates</a> lately?
12-18-2002, 08:48 AM
#64
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just a follow up to my half baked thinking out
loud on MAP v's MAF.
Thanks people who passed up the opportunity to
flame my bad attempt at remembering high school
physics. So for MAP..
PV=nRT (the ideal gas law), we want n which is the number
of molecules. We've got V as a constant,
thats 2.5litres / 4. We measure P (pressure) and T (temp) and R is
the universal gas constant, so for MAP its seems kinda nice and simple in terms of the maths.
I promise to shutup now.
loud on MAP v's MAF.
Thanks people who passed up the opportunity to
flame my bad attempt at remembering high school
physics. So for MAP..
PV=nRT (the ideal gas law), we want n which is the number
of molecules. We've got V as a constant,
thats 2.5litres / 4. We measure P (pressure) and T (temp) and R is
the universal gas constant, so for MAP its seems kinda nice and simple in terms of the maths.
I promise to shutup now.
12-19-2002, 01:24 AM
#65
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Danno said:
'BTW, Huntley used one on his SC kit but never told anyone, probably rubbed the labeling off too.'
You claim we don't know what we are talking about, yet you seem to be the one mislead. We have never used a LINK product on any of our supercharged cars. All the Huntley supercharged cars are MAP based but with electronics you likely have never even seen before. They control fuel, timing, REV limits, solenoid control etc... in a piggy back format which is pre-tuned by us.
You said we should not use terms like 'all' or 'every'. You should take your 'theoretical' knowledge and spend a few more years in the practical world where after designing, installing and tuning fuel injection for many years you might begin to understand that there are most definitely things that 'ALL' MAP sensors do and will do 'EVERY' time. You act like you invented MAP kits when you simply purchase the kit that KOKELN sells you that they set-up with LINK before you were around. Heck I was schmoozing with LINK people at PRI in Indianapolis two years ago about these. If I recall you were still running 87 Oct gas in your modified 951 and blowing head gaskets back then as Danno the self proclaimed Beach Bum?!?! So keep up the good work and sell you wares but keep it 'real' and go around the block a few times before you proclaim things, which you don't really know. I suspect you will throw up some nice full color 3-D graphs now and such which are nice to look at
Good luck.
'BTW, Huntley used one on his SC kit but never told anyone, probably rubbed the labeling off too.'
You claim we don't know what we are talking about, yet you seem to be the one mislead. We have never used a LINK product on any of our supercharged cars. All the Huntley supercharged cars are MAP based but with electronics you likely have never even seen before. They control fuel, timing, REV limits, solenoid control etc... in a piggy back format which is pre-tuned by us.
You said we should not use terms like 'all' or 'every'. You should take your 'theoretical' knowledge and spend a few more years in the practical world where after designing, installing and tuning fuel injection for many years you might begin to understand that there are most definitely things that 'ALL' MAP sensors do and will do 'EVERY' time. You act like you invented MAP kits when you simply purchase the kit that KOKELN sells you that they set-up with LINK before you were around. Heck I was schmoozing with LINK people at PRI in Indianapolis two years ago about these. If I recall you were still running 87 Oct gas in your modified 951 and blowing head gaskets back then as Danno the self proclaimed Beach Bum?!?! So keep up the good work and sell you wares but keep it 'real' and go around the block a few times before you proclaim things, which you don't really know. I suspect you will throw up some nice full color 3-D graphs now and such which are nice to look at
Good luck.
12-21-2002, 02:34 AM
#68
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Danno,
Is that really your chocolate company, or was that a joke?
Maybe you guys should test Danno's MAP kit before you say that it "DOES" have low speed instability and idle problems.
It seems to me that he just may have found a cure for the problem. If he were here proclaiming that his kit does not suffer from these problems, and it does, I think that there are enough people on this forum that have his setup for someone to call bull$hit on him.
Is that really your chocolate company, or was that a joke?
Maybe you guys should test Danno's MAP kit before you say that it "DOES" have low speed instability and idle problems.
It seems to me that he just may have found a cure for the problem. If he were here proclaiming that his kit does not suffer from these problems, and it does, I think that there are enough people on this forum that have his setup for someone to call bull$hit on him.
12-22-2002, 04:31 AM
#70
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[quote]Originally posted by GaryK:
<strong>
Tell your neighbor with the 355 he doesn't stand a chance against my car at this altitude and I challenge him to some fun laps at the Pueblo road course as well. </strong><hr></blockquote>
im not sure "doesnt stand a chance" is the right term.....
<a href="http://expage.com/ferrari355specs" target="_blank">355 specs</a>
<strong>
Tell your neighbor with the 355 he doesn't stand a chance against my car at this altitude and I challenge him to some fun laps at the Pueblo road course as well. </strong><hr></blockquote>
im not sure "doesnt stand a chance" is the right term.....
<a href="http://expage.com/ferrari355specs" target="_blank">355 specs</a>
12-22-2002, 02:02 PM
#72
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Hey thanks Brett, and you haven't even driven my car yet!
NA cars lose something like 20% horsepower here. Turbos suffer with slower spool-up, but fly on the highway!
'89 951 - T04E,some lag,dry only
'92 Audi S4 - K24,quick spool,fun in snow
NA cars lose something like 20% horsepower here. Turbos suffer with slower spool-up, but fly on the highway!
'89 951 - T04E,some lag,dry only
'92 Audi S4 - K24,quick spool,fun in snow
12-22-2002, 08:53 PM
#74
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I have been following with great interest all the threads on 968.net and here trying to enrich my knowledge and make an educated decision on which car to buy and turn it to a race/DE car. The idea of a 968 which I previously owned and run at the track, or a 951 is very appealing. Normally I do not post here as i do not have much to offer but strictly as an outsider watching my observation is that the attitude and condencenting comments from rennlist sponsor Huntley Racing do not win any new customers. They may be true to what their saying and claiming but in the way your points are presented it leaves a very bad taste at least in my mouth.
Danno I would commend you for consistently being a gentleman in these boards.
Just my .02
Danno I would commend you for consistently being a gentleman in these boards.
Just my .02
