nine-44

Hate to be OT but check out Supras .com-MK4 section

jimbo1111

[quote]
The 350 mark is not that big of a deal. I know you have to have the proper tools, but lets not get carried away. I ran a MAF kit (a couple years agao, no MAP available), large turbo, and 52# injectors, ran 22psi boost on a motor that had over 200,000 on the OD. For a year, I was at 371 at the tires, never blew a head gasket, never had a failure on the motor. Point is, the motor can take over 350 at the tires without busting the bank. <hr></blockquote>

371 rwhp & 22 lbs boost i'm sure thats not pump gas. I think most of us are talking about a street car being able to prodose 350 rwhp say 92 octane with bolt on's.

jimbo1111

posted by danno
[quote] there is also no way you're making 350rwhp reliably with 55-lb/hr injectors (80% duty-cycle limit is 330rwhp). <hr></blockquote>
Your buddy john said he's bin getting 371 fwhp for two years with 52lbs.

John Anderson

Thats right,

371 at teh tires on PUMP gas, 92 octane. Tim Can vouch for that, he saw it on the dyno thru many stages of tuning. Never popped the head gasket the entire time I owned the car.

Danno knows the car aslo, and was there when I did the runs. It happened during a So Cal Pizza Run I had down here.

I'm not saying I want everyone to do what I did, I';m saying that if it could be done on my tired old 200K + and I had no problem. Then with the newer tools..it can be done easier, not harder..and it should be very reliable...but it doesn't have to be so complicated either.

I have been there, and done that when it comes to modding the 951 motor :-)

Take care!

Danno

Tim, no big deal, we were talking about two different ideas and I wanted to point that out.

"there is also no way you're making 350rwhp reliably with 55-lb/hr injectors (80% duty-cycle limit is 330rwhp).

"Your buddy john said he's bin getting 371 fwhp for two years with 52lbs."

I guess I have a slightly different definition of 'reliable' than most people. The criteria I use a lot of times is "100% full-throttle, 100% of the time", which is actually not that different from the way John drives!

On a street-driven car, with only occasional redline runs, it's probably OK to overdrive the injectors past 80% every once in a while, that's fine. But on a car that sees autocross/DE/racetrack duty where extended 100% throttle, high-RPM usage is more common, it's best not to run the injectors over 80%. Doing so will overheat them, leading to unreliable fuel-metering. This also overheats your DME driver transistor (less 'off' time to cool).

So anyone can push 52/55-lb/hr injectors to 100% duty-cycle and get 390rwhp if you want, but we'd prefer to use 65-lb/hr ones to get 390rwhp at only 80% duty-cycle.

John Anderson

LOL, I do agree with Danno, I just wanted to throw a wrench in there :-) Mine was street driven only, and I did do my share of blasting around, but its different than being on the track, as Danno stated. And yes, my DME was getting warm. Infact I machined a huge Heatsink for the think to keep it cool :-)

I would simply do the MAP. It really is the best thing going for our cars now.

I don't sell the MAP, but I believe there is someone lurking around here that sells a complete , fail safe, bolt on product that has been installed on cars to date..isn't there?

Take Care Danno!

John Anderson

White 944 Turbo,

I don't have any experience with the Digital MAF kits. Anything I have heard on the systems could be tainted by the customer that may have installed it wrong or had something wrong with his car before the install. I'd like to play with one before I cast any judgement. Thats the only real way to find out.

Take Care!

rcldesign

[quote] Funny..., I don't recall rcldesign hanging out at our shop or visiting us at the dyno? Check out the R&D history behind the MAP kit and I still don't see him around anywhere. Thanks to all you guys who participated and helped us get the product out quickly. Going from importation and sales numbers, we are buying up around %95 of all the AFM-Link MAP units sent over by Link-NZ. There is no other outfit that has as much experience with MAP or have installed as many kits as we have:
<hr></blockquote>

Sorry to burst your bubble there Danno... but you're not the only place that carries MAP kits for 944s. Not to mention that GM has been using them on their factory cars for quite some time. So, there are plenty of other outfits that have much more experience than you do with MAPs. Not to mention that both SFR and HR have been selling standalone engine management systems (Electromotive and Wolf3D/Link respectively) for quite some time now... all these standalone systems just so happen to use MAP sensors for load sensing.

Now I have a question about your sales figures here... is this AFM-Link MAP unit the 3 bar MAP sensor that Link sells? Link isn't the only manufacturer of MAP sensors. Of your competitors (namely SFR and HR), they aren't using Link MAP sensors in their kits... and since you're not using InterceptLinks with your kits, you are using none of the same components... so good job patting yourself on the back for having the most experience and selling the most kits... keep up your candy bar sales and you might accumulate enough points to win that bicycle <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

Russ Murphy

[quote] Not to mention that both SFR and HR have been selling standalone engine management systems (Electromotive and Wolf3D/Link respectively) for quite some time now... all these standalone systems just so happen to use MAP sensors for load sensing. <hr></blockquote>
Why would they do that? That is, sell standalone systems that rely on MAP? I thought the MAF was the only "tried and true" method of high performance engine metering.

superjet.1

rcldesign look at the quote Danno states quite clear link afm map kits not a standalone or other map based unit simply that. You shouldnt take things for more than they are stiring the pot i guess is fun for sum people.

Huntley Racing

RCLDesign is correct we offer both MAF AND MAP kits. We feel both kits offer features of interest to the consumer but differently. The 'tried and true' MAF kits continue to be the 'better' choice for true street cars with the added bonus from the tuning power of the new digital electronics. The Huntley MAP kits offer slighty more power (1%-5% in most applications) than the MAF but ALL MAP SYSTEMS, ours and others suffer from low speed instability which for many street cars is undesireable. We have found that track cars don't have an issue with diminished idle quality and as such should get the MAP but true daily driver vehicles should stick to MAF systems for the best in overall performance and drivabilty. Both of our packadges (MAP & MAF) use identical electronics, similar TIG welded equal radius S/S induction plumbing, and factory made harness. All of our systems also come with the programmer standard, not as an option. That being said we are also offering the 'best' solution for many, the complete bolt-on EFI systems. These affer the ultimate in EFI technology with the ease of instalation expected from 'piggy-back' type controllers. For those contemplating the jump to full EFI but have been overwhelmed by the complexity, these are the answer to your needs. We have been using these EFI systems for some time with tremendous success. Here is a picture of one installed on our exclusive carbon fiber EFI mounting plate (shown with our EVO3 data aquisition ECU) in the back of a new racecar we just finished for next season.

Link to HR-EFI
<a href="http://www.archcartpro.com/users/dkhajavi/HR-EFI.html" target="_blank">http://www.archcartpro.com/users/dkhajavi/HR-EFI.html</a>

Link to HR/Link Piggy back electronics
<a href="http://www.huntleyracing.com/HRIL.htm" target="_blank">http://www.huntleyracing.com/HRIL.htm</a>

John Anderson

Hey Danno,

Did you send that MAP system down yet? I'll be installing Caldwells motor, and need to get that in also before saturday. Also, be sure you have your program loaded so we can get him home. You can dyno him from your shop.

Take Care!

Russ Murphy

Boy, I love scrolling left and right to read every sentence.
Also, just curious, how much is a HR MAF with intake.

jimbo1111

Keep in mind that most new car manufacturers are using maf with map, There are bugs with both unit. Thats why they use the benifits of both. They both have there weaknesses but together the dme sees the whole picture. As far as the map sensor is concerned it only sences pressure and dose not know how many cfm are actually being flowed through the intake, since the temp of the air will vary greatly between the filter and the head especially on a over heated race car. If all the variable stead the same it would work great but a heated up air charge could change all that.a 15 psi air charge at 100deg. contains more oxegen than a 15 psi air charge at 200deg. i am not talking about air entering the engine but the air after the turbo. now the maf is sencing volume and will under stand the expanded charge of air and meter accordingly because it is measuring volume not pressure.

hally

I am imagining that a MAP setup derives
volume using the following physics:
V =(nRT) / P
n and R are constants, T=temp P=pressure V=volume.

while a MAF setup measures V as a function of energy dissipation off the hot wire.

So both methods get to V as a function of Temp.

To me then it seems that the distinction between MAF and MAP boils down to a comparison of the accuracy of the sensor measurements.
As Jimbo points out the location at which the sensor measurements are taken will impact on accuracy. MAF measures everything at the loction of the hot wire, while MAP has two separate sensors for T and P in different locations.
As neither system takes its measurements inside the cylinder both will introduce location related error.
In a dual MAF / MAP system I there probably would
be heuristic error expectation functions determined for each something like
V_error_MAF = fn(T, P, revs?, etc)
V_error_MAP = fn(T, P, revs?, etc)
and the V measurement would be taken from the system with the smallest expected error at that instant.

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