m42racer

As I have been vocal about the level of engineering available for 951 owners, I have decided to build an engine, whatever it takes to the highest level possible.

I will make the entire build with pics avialable to all on this board. I will ask all interested Tuners to submit their build spec's, but I will not post the costs. This is not important here. The importance is the level of product and engineering.

I want to see engineering data, mechanical loadings, flow data, etc. I want to know the individual components, ie., Piston manufacturer, etc. All of this will be posted here. All information will be public and all products will be available to anyone.

The engine will be a single cam 951, and retain the standard engine to chassis fitment. No Dry sump, etc. Must be able to run on Pump gas and be able to be driven on the street. (does not have to comply with smog regs). I do not want an all out race engine. The purpose is to showcase the products which will be available to all. All else is open.

Only those who are prepared to have the entire build posted here with pic's and whatever else is required to tell the story need apply. You can email me or better still post your ideas here first. I will ask questions on this board of any one who applies and make my selection here also. I am looking for new ideas and new product. I will visit your business and must be able to take any pics of my engine throughout the build and be able to post them here.

The final performance is important. I will expect the Tuner to give me a performance figure based upon what they intend to do. I will say this though. The most HP will not necessarily get the work. I want engineering and out of this will come the appropiate performance. Price? Well thats based upon what you offer. If I feel its worthy I will spend whatever it takes.

If there are any questions regarding this, please post them here, and we will discuss them on this board for all to see.

BoostGuy951

I applaud the Idea, but for some, cost may be more of a factor.

m42racer

I agree with you. I am sensitive to this. If I can show off the very best of what can be had, then hopefully more affordable products etc., can also be had.

Derrek Khajavi

Huntley Racing is up to the challenge. Lets discuss it. I am thinking 3.4ltrs with stroked billet crank, titanium rods with built in piston squirters, custom forged pistons with thermal and friction coatings, Custom 2V head with titanium oversized intake valves with undersized stems and inconel oversized exhaust valves with undersized stems, solid hard coated titanium buckets with vanadium springs and titanium retainers, billet custom cam, adjustable cam sprocket, timing belt custom servo controlled tensoner/variocam variable cam timing device, balance shafts deleted, lightweight crank and accessory pulleys with under drive, oversized H20 pump with internal bypass eliminated, modified oil pump to increase volume, custom front mount intercooler to replace radiator, twin custom radiators flanking the intercooler, large oil cooler mounted under the intercooler, complete inner body ducting for all coolers with thru hood exhaust ducting, custom individual barrel valve throttle body intake with internal plenum velocity stacks and variable length servo controlled runners, custom turbocharger based on the HR Stage V with ceramic turbine and twin ceramic ball bearings and twin bullet tips mounted in the passenger front fender area with custom equal length runner headers mated to a split turbine housing and made from inconel, large multi-stage servo controlled blow-off valve vented to the exhaust system in front of the turbocharger with EFI controlled afterburning enrichment for pre-turbo combustion between shifts, EFI Systems Italy EFI with full sequential timing and fuel with individual cylinder trim for both spark and fuel and three way closed loop tuning with wide band O2-EGT-Cyl Pressure, aluminum flywheel, aluminum pressure plate with 50% more clamping force, 6 puck disc with street pads, custom made 6-speed sequential paddle shifted transaxle mated to a carbon/kevlar torque tube with 300M drive shaft, 300M tubular axles with tri-pod CV joints. How much power?? The limiting factor will be the 2V head but somewhere around 800 HP and 750 TQ at the wheels with a very broad power band clear to 9000RPM. With a 4V head the power would be over 1000 HP and 900 TQ give or take conservatively.

m42racer

Ok, first off this should not be viewed as a challenge. Its a way upon which you can show off your engineering expertise at my expense. I hopefuuly will gain a very nice engine. Lets only consider the engine at this time.

You list many different parts. They all sound great. Before we get to the parts, I would like to see some engineering data. Bore/stroke, rod length, Piston speed, rod ratio, flow numbers, computer simulations, cam specs etc. Then we can discuss the individual components, their design, weights, manufacturers etc. There will be some info that should be kept private, as I would not expect who ever does build this engine to give away all of their expertise for free. However you should expect any information you supply to me I will post. If there is any that is not to be posted please state what it is and I will honor this request.

You mention many things here. Are you sure you can offer these? I expect you will have components made for this, (Rods, Pistons etc) but I expect that any Intake and Timing belt systems etc., to be of your own design. I have to admit something here. I read what you have to offer and frankly I'm having trouble taking it seriously. You have the capabilities to do all of the items listed? Please don't say something you can not come thro' with. This is exactly what happens alot of the time to us owners. I will as requested come to your facility and discuss the many options you have listed and will want to take photo's of your facility as part of this whole build.

Would you please list here the engine specifications, along with whatever data is required to design a configuration. I do not expect this to be quick. This should take some time to obtain.

John Anderson

M42,

Let me come up with the factors your looking for. Its a long hunt, your asking for computer simulations, rod/piston speed/ etc etc...can do. But I'm a little skeptical about giving certain numbers up for everyone to see. THere are tiny little details in building an engine that can mean a world of difference. Now, lets get to the nuts and bolts...your asking for a lot of info...so, let me ask you, whats your budget?

This means a lot, as you can see already..there are a few tuners out there that are ready to offer up a list of components that read like like the who's who of the 100 million dollar class.

I would like to offer up a motor that we have built or have built a variance of. Something we have tangible knowledge of... on a hands on basis. I won't try and dazzle you, but rather come straight at you with a no bullshat plan.

So, let me know what you want first. Call me or post here. I'm in.

Take Care!

PorscheG96

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Derrek Khajavi:
<strong>Huntley Racing is up to the challenge. Lets discuss it. I am thinking 3.4ltrs with stroked billet crank, titanium rods with built in piston squirters, custom forged pistons with thermal and friction coatings, Custom 2V head with titanium oversized intake valves with undersized stems and inconel oversized exhaust valves with undersized stems, solid hard coated titanium buckets with vanadium springs and titanium retainers, billet custom cam, adjustable cam sprocket, timing belt custom servo controlled tensoner/variocam variable cam timing device, balance shafts deleted, lightweight crank and accessory pulleys with under drive, oversized H20 pump with internal bypass eliminated, modified oil pump to increase volume, custom front mount intercooler to replace radiator, twin custom radiators flanking the intercooler, large oil cooler mounted under the intercooler, complete inner body ducting for all coolers with thru hood exhaust ducting, custom individual barrel valve throttle body intake with internal plenum velocity stacks and variable length servo controlled runners, custom turbocharger based on the HR Stage V with ceramic turbine and twin ceramic ball bearings and twin bullet tips mounted in the passenger front fender area with custom equal length runner headers mated to a split turbine housing and made from inconel, large multi-stage servo controlled blow-off valve vented to the exhaust system in front of the turbocharger with EFI controlled afterburning enrichment for pre-turbo combustion between shifts, EFI Systems Italy EFI with full sequential timing and fuel with individual cylinder trim for both spark and fuel and three way closed loop tuning with wide band O2-EGT-Cyl Pressure, aluminum flywheel, aluminum pressure plate with 50% more clamping force, 6 puck disc with street pads, custom made 6-speed sequential paddle shifted transaxle mated to a carbon/kevlar torque tube with 300M drive shaft, 300M tubular axles with tri-pod CV joints. How much power?? The limiting factor will be the 2V head but somewhere around 800 HP and 750 TQ at the wheels with a very broad power band clear to 9000RPM. With a 4V head the power would be over 1000 HP and 900 TQ give or take conservatively.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Aside from this sounding like a $50k engine, do you have any data on swinging 108mm pistons around at 9k RPM? How much inertial load are you putting on the connecting rods at that engine speed with such massive pistons??

cheetah chrome

i think 50k is a conservative estimate.....6spd sequential trans....theres a couple of pennies there not including the custom fab work. m42 i hope your check book is large buddy

Ski

I think this is a great idea but wouldn't it be better served(just asking and an opinion here) if you set a couple of parameters; displacement and budget.

2.5, 2.7. 2.8, or 3.1 liters, budget,,,hmmm, $20-$25k? Is this engine going to be for your personal car?

I think you could probably get 4 or 6 interested:

John Anderson
Scott Gomes
Chris Cervelli
John Milledge
Tim Richards
Derrick Khajavi

Scott G and John M are pretty tight with info but they might be up for it. But I do think you need to set some budget just to get a somewhat level playing field. I think then you'll find what builders find most important of the new technology, from metal composites to stand alone engine managment. Good luck with this, sounds like a whole lot of fun!!!

m42racer

I think I was a little too vauge about what I am trying to achieve. After giving it some more thought, and after seeing Huntley's post,(??)I have decided that maybe a different approach should be considered. What I want to see is more engineered products available to all 951 owners. I am dissapointed at the level of product and that we are always sold the same stuff year after year. Take a look at what other Porsche owners have offered. There is no reason we cannot have similar product made available to us.

So I have decided to create a list of new product which I want designed and produced for my
engine. None can be already available, and all must be no more than a certain retail value, and all must be made available to anyone who wishes to buy. It is possible that the first run of parts for my engine may cost more than my required figure, but all sales thereafter must be at or under this figure. My intention was never to create a prototype, but to create new product for all of us to buy. Now, what to include on the list. Engine only. Maybe if this is successful, we can then do chassis stuff.

The Crankshaft will be exempt from the above, as any new Crank should be above $ 3200.00 and too expensive to change. All existing cranks can be used. The engine configuration which I would like to see is probably more stock as more of us have these.

I would expect that any new component, even new components from new manufacturers should cost each or per set somewhere near what we are already paying. Rods etc., may be more from some, but the difference is probably in quality. I should add that the final price limit will exclude Titanium parts. Again, I do not wish to develop parts that the regular owner could not buy. Quality is #1 and so I am not going to expect the pricing to be too low.

So, what do we put on the list and what should the upper limit be for parts. We should consider that some parts will require 4 of, so the upper limit should reflect this number. Same goes for Valves, spring etc.

My opinion is that the upper limit should be somewhere around $1500-1800. If there should be some exceptions please comment. I am hoping for some sort of new manifold and maybe this will be above $ 2200.00.

I would also like to add that all of the machine work, porting, design and assembly must be done in house. This way all area's of the build can be monitored and photograhed and posted here. If this is not done, alot of the work will be missed and some of this work is always a mystery to most of us.

Your opinions are welcome.

rcldesign

Perhaps you're forgetting that some things are more of an art form, rather than a science (such as custom fabrication, head porting, etc.) Also keep in mind that most of the time, engine builders rely on experience rather than things like computer simulations to develop their ideas.

Matt Sheppard

M42 racer:

Am I reading this right? You are referring to the $2200 price cap as for an indivual part - vis a vis: an intake manifold, correct? You are not saying $2200 cap for the whole engine project?

I applaud this "contribution" to the community and see it as such. I would hope you dont take some of the pot-shots you received in the tappet-post as ingratitude from the board. I beleive we all do love the 944/951/968 platform, just some of us have more financial means than others to "express" that devotion.

I for one live off the extravagence of others so spend away! I own cars that someone else has born the brunt of the expense to obtain (I never thought I could drive a $40,000 sports car). I'm not necessarily looking forward to the $2200 intake unless I could whittle one out of balsa wood - but there are things that I look to glean from your project that I would not otherwise be privy too and perhaps the products that will trickle down to my level.

I hope someone serious bits on this line.

I would not throw out ALL Ti parts. Valve springs and retainers are pretty simple and cost-effective to reproduce in Ti - knowing full-well that valve component weight is not the weak point in the 8V head. That and there are already sets available.

Dead - 951

Actually, I plan to do some engineering on my own in the near future. I have a full solid works CAD workstation on the way (school and work discounts are great!!!). Guess what this includes... 3-D mechanical simulation, stress simulation, FLUID FLOW MODELING . This is going to take just a little time to accomplish as I both work and go to school full time. Plus a G/F who deserves more time than I can give her. Should get the software in a couple weeks and I will update as things progress. ANY input is welcome (please help...)

My approach is to input a stock 951 engine system into solid works to first see if I can form an accurate baseline of a real engine. I would then procede to perform simulated mods to the engine to match different turbo maps to optimal intake designs, head designs, 10" exhausts, solenoid operated valve train <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> , who knows... I want to do this with the wealth of knowledge in this community, as I realize I do not know everything (even though I think I do). As I said, this will take some time, but I think it will be a worth while wait. Peace out. <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />

Stephen

Dead - 951

BTW,

I AM serious.

m42racer

rcldesign,

Thats the problem. We have all paid dearly for some "experience" and it generally does not come thro'. Just read on this board all of the unhappy customers who were sold something and never got it. If I ask for new parts etc, and see simulations of what the configuration will do, then we can expect the parts will produce this performance if purchased in the future. If a Tuners does not wish to give up info, then they will not be considered. This after all is not a custom project. Its a project where we 951 owners can expect "X" performance from new parts and configurations. As for the "artform" theory, this seems to me the standard dibble that spews from those Tuners who can never produce what they say they can. Of all of the projects I have done I have heard similar statements. Recently I have found that this does not apply to those engineers who really know their stuff. Most of them do use computers to estimate performance, design etc., with inputs from flow data, etc. One I have used on my 930 project uses solid works to design, some other program to design camshafts using flow numbers and can see flows and pressures etc, and also uses computer to prdict stresses etc. So this level of engineering is out here, we just need it here.
I have discussed doing this 951 engine with this company, but they have not given me an answer. I was hoping that others would also consider this.
Costs, well somethings are going to cost. I cannot see a new manifold costing less than $ 2500.00 or close. Maybe something like what was posted before, but from what I remember that was something for the underside, not to be ever seen by humans, not to mention did it even work.