wideband o2
11-27-2002, 08:35 PM
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wideband o2
Im pretty new at this 951 mod thing and would like some advice on wideband o2 setups that you are running on your cars. Do you feel that with wideband o2 you could bypass dyno runs? Are these systems reliable enough so that your head gasket would not blow due to a lean condition? and witch one do you feel is the best?your input would be appreciated.
11-27-2002, 09:24 PM
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I'm installing the one from Tech Edge, AU next week. I had to get the NTK Bosch sensor for $189 because the NAPA OS791 @$139 is on big time back order. My total cost with the sensor, controller & display was $488. There is a Honda sensor that is compatible with the Tech Edge unit, if you can find a 1995 Civic, 1.5 liter, wrecked with the 5 wire sensor. I found one and the guy wanted $150 bucks for it so I bought new.
I think a wide band will just help you tune your car so much closer and be a sub for the wide band on the dyno, depending on which wide band the dyno shop has. Also if you live an hour or more from a dyno(me) and if your doing mods I think a wide band makes sense. When your at the dyno, ask yourself: How many pulls are on the particular sensor, what type of fuels were used on those runs, so...how accurate is the dyno sensor? One of the main reasons I'm doing it is because of mods of course but the Tech Edge is capable of:
"The analogue output voltage covers the AFR range of 10:1 (1.4 Volts) thru' 14.7 (2.5 Volts) to 25:1 (3.1 Volts)"
I'll take some photos next week and do a write up on install.
<a href="http://techedge.com.au/" target="_blank">http://techedge.com.au/</a>
I think a wide band will just help you tune your car so much closer and be a sub for the wide band on the dyno, depending on which wide band the dyno shop has. Also if you live an hour or more from a dyno(me) and if your doing mods I think a wide band makes sense. When your at the dyno, ask yourself: How many pulls are on the particular sensor, what type of fuels were used on those runs, so...how accurate is the dyno sensor? One of the main reasons I'm doing it is because of mods of course but the Tech Edge is capable of:
"The analogue output voltage covers the AFR range of 10:1 (1.4 Volts) thru' 14.7 (2.5 Volts) to 25:1 (3.1 Volts)"
I'll take some photos next week and do a write up on install.
<a href="http://techedge.com.au/" target="_blank">http://techedge.com.au/</a>
11-27-2002, 09:49 PM
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I have the LambdaBoy unit and it works good for me. I had a little trouble with the software on WindowsME and Julian was great with support. The wideband sensor is not worth much unless you have a modification that gives you control of your fuel tables like a map kit or standalone. I got mine because I am planning to go standalone.
11-28-2002, 01:44 AM
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If you can tune the car yourself (Guru MAP Kit, standalone, etc) then Wideband O2 is awesome. I tuned my car 100% on the road. Only used the dyno to get an official hp number.
11-28-2002, 04:08 AM
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So does this sensor replace the existing O2 sensor? (or is an additional sensor that doesn't actually feed into the DME, ie just to the AFR gauge.)
thanks
thanks
11-28-2002, 09:21 AM
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I'll second Tazman - I have a Lambdaboy set up working with my Tec3 for tuning and to run the system in the loop when off boost. It is real interesting to watch the mixture setting. Because the wide band sensor is fairly linear there isn't any dithering. The system just stays at the desired mixture with very little oscilations. Neat!
Chris White
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11-28-2002, 11:21 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by hally:
<strong>So does this sensor replace the existing O2 sensor? (or is an additional sensor that doesn't actually feed into the DME, ie just to the AFR gauge.)
thanks</strong><hr></blockquote>
You usualy use it as an additional sensor because the output it gives is totaly different then what the DME needs. With the LambdaBoy he makes a converter board that you could use to send the proper signal to the DME but it runs on 2 lithium batteries 6V. Julian told me that it should run off of +5V which most standalone systems have an output for. Chris are you useing the BCA1 board to tie into the Tec3? If you use that and are still useing the batteries on the board you might want to consider this, then you won't have to worry about the batteries any more. If you have it this way or try it I would appreciate if you let me know how it works.
<strong>So does this sensor replace the existing O2 sensor? (or is an additional sensor that doesn't actually feed into the DME, ie just to the AFR gauge.)
thanks</strong><hr></blockquote>
You usualy use it as an additional sensor because the output it gives is totaly different then what the DME needs. With the LambdaBoy he makes a converter board that you could use to send the proper signal to the DME but it runs on 2 lithium batteries 6V. Julian told me that it should run off of +5V which most standalone systems have an output for. Chris are you useing the BCA1 board to tie into the Tec3? If you use that and are still useing the batteries on the board you might want to consider this, then you won't have to worry about the batteries any more. If you have it this way or try it I would appreciate if you let me know how it works.
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11-28-2002, 01:35 PM
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A couple questions.
Would an ETG Exhaust Temp Gauge work for tuning purposes?
Then would it be better to have 1 sensor in each exhaust runner (4 total) to get a reading if one was lean or not?
Last, I saw some portable Wideband sensors that could be moved from car to car. Similar to the ones at the dyno, they test in the tailpipe.
Here's a combo. Portable ETG gauge.
<a href="http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=22816" target="_blank">portable ETG</a>
Would an ETG Exhaust Temp Gauge work for tuning purposes?
Then would it be better to have 1 sensor in each exhaust runner (4 total) to get a reading if one was lean or not?
Last, I saw some portable Wideband sensors that could be moved from car to car. Similar to the ones at the dyno, they test in the tailpipe.
Here's a combo. Portable ETG gauge.
<a href="http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=22816" target="_blank">portable ETG</a>
11-28-2002, 06:28 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Ski:
<strong>I'm installing the one from Tech Edge, AU next week. I had to get the NTK Bosch sensor for $189 because the NAPA OS791 @$139 is on big time back order. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought the tech edge use only the UEGO and do not work with the Bosch one.
Konstantin
<strong>I'm installing the one from Tech Edge, AU next week. I had to get the NTK Bosch sensor for $189 because the NAPA OS791 @$139 is on big time back order. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought the tech edge use only the UEGO and do not work with the Bosch one.
Konstantin
11-28-2002, 07:32 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Konstantin:
<strong>
I thought the tech edge use only the UEGO and do not work with the Bosch one.
Konstantin</strong><hr></blockquote>
The correct part will be an NTK sensor although the box it comes in may say Bosch (as in the image shown here), Echlin. The NTK sensor is stamped with the text L1H1.
<strong>
I thought the tech edge use only the UEGO and do not work with the Bosch one.
Konstantin</strong><hr></blockquote>
The correct part will be an NTK sensor although the box it comes in may say Bosch (as in the image shown here), Echlin. The NTK sensor is stamped with the text L1H1.
11-28-2002, 07:38 PM
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Now that I have had my fill of turkey.....
Hi Tom - I converted it to run off of a 5v power source connected to a key switched power supply. The batteries do not last long on the BAC1 at all!!
I also have a four channel pyrometer installed – you don’t used the exhaust temps to set the mixture on a turbo car but you do use them to prevent melt downs!!!
When I first set up the Tec3 I used the often quoted 12 to 12.5 to 1 as a tuning point. The car ran nicely and made good power (370 rwhp at 18psi). I was happily believing that I was in good shape. Later the same year I melted an exhaust valve at Watkins Glen. By then the car had seen several thousand street miles and 6 days of track time (about 600- 800 miles).
After redoing the head I added the exhaust pyrometers (call me paranoid!) and the results were fairly shocking. At 12.5 to 1 I would get over 1750 degrees on the track – not a good thing. I did a lot of experimenting with timing and mixtures and I now run about 11:1 on the track and 12:1 on the street. The temps are still a little higher than I would like (a little over 1600 on the track). The outer two cylinders run a little less than 50 degrees cooler than the center two. The richer setting does not cause the power to drop off much but it does increase fuel consumption!!
Just as a point of info – aluminum melts at about 1300….
BTW – the ‘portable’ EGT gizmo still needs to have holes drilled in the exhaust manifold!! Autometer makes some reasonably priced dash gauges.
Chris White <a href="http://www.944enhancement.com" target="_blank">www.944enhancement.com</a>
Hi Tom - I converted it to run off of a 5v power source connected to a key switched power supply. The batteries do not last long on the BAC1 at all!!
I also have a four channel pyrometer installed – you don’t used the exhaust temps to set the mixture on a turbo car but you do use them to prevent melt downs!!!
When I first set up the Tec3 I used the often quoted 12 to 12.5 to 1 as a tuning point. The car ran nicely and made good power (370 rwhp at 18psi). I was happily believing that I was in good shape. Later the same year I melted an exhaust valve at Watkins Glen. By then the car had seen several thousand street miles and 6 days of track time (about 600- 800 miles).
After redoing the head I added the exhaust pyrometers (call me paranoid!) and the results were fairly shocking. At 12.5 to 1 I would get over 1750 degrees on the track – not a good thing. I did a lot of experimenting with timing and mixtures and I now run about 11:1 on the track and 12:1 on the street. The temps are still a little higher than I would like (a little over 1600 on the track). The outer two cylinders run a little less than 50 degrees cooler than the center two. The richer setting does not cause the power to drop off much but it does increase fuel consumption!!
Just as a point of info – aluminum melts at about 1300….
BTW – the ‘portable’ EGT gizmo still needs to have holes drilled in the exhaust manifold!! Autometer makes some reasonably priced dash gauges.
Chris White <a href="http://www.944enhancement.com" target="_blank">www.944enhancement.com</a>
11-28-2002, 09:54 PM
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posted by tazman
[quote] The wideband sensor is not worth much unless you have a modification that gives you control of your fuel tables like a map kit or standalone <hr></blockquote>I thought a maf was a fuel controler. Are you saying that a wideband 02 would not be good for a maf setup?
[quote] The wideband sensor is not worth much unless you have a modification that gives you control of your fuel tables like a map kit or standalone <hr></blockquote>I thought a maf was a fuel controler. Are you saying that a wideband 02 would not be good for a maf setup?
11-29-2002, 12:04 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by jimbo1111:
<strong>posted by tazman
I thought a maf was a fuel controler. Are you saying that a wideband 02 would not be good for a maf setup?</strong><hr></blockquote>
A "MAF" sensor is just that, a sensor. The companies you buy MAF kits from comes with chips taylored to that sensor. You can't tune it since you wouldn't have the proper tools to modify and burn eeprom fuel maps.
Some of the tuners' MAF kits comes with fuel correction devices such as the ARC 2. You can adjust fuel on a low/mid/high rpm range... not very accurate, but you can use a wideband o2 sensor to ensure you're not going any leaner than 12.5 A/F ratio.
<strong>posted by tazman
I thought a maf was a fuel controler. Are you saying that a wideband 02 would not be good for a maf setup?</strong><hr></blockquote>
A "MAF" sensor is just that, a sensor. The companies you buy MAF kits from comes with chips taylored to that sensor. You can't tune it since you wouldn't have the proper tools to modify and burn eeprom fuel maps.
Some of the tuners' MAF kits comes with fuel correction devices such as the ARC 2. You can adjust fuel on a low/mid/high rpm range... not very accurate, but you can use a wideband o2 sensor to ensure you're not going any leaner than 12.5 A/F ratio.
11-29-2002, 01:12 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by jimbo1111:
<strong> I thought a maf was a fuel controler. Are you saying that a wideband 02 would not be good for a maf setup?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was more thinking for it to be worth the money to buy a wideband you have to have a setup that you can do alot of tuning to make it worth while. Otherwise with a dyno run you can send that with your chips to have them give you a good A/F curve. By all means if you have the extra cash it is a nice thing to have.
BoostGuy951 the LambdaBoy cost $500 when I was looking the ones I found were all around that price. <a href="http://www.lambdaboy.com/main.html" target="_blank">http://www.lambdaboy.com/main.html</a>
Thanks for sharing that info with me Chris! It's good to find out something I was planning to do will work. It is hard to beleive you still see those high exhaust temps with the richer settings. Did you ever consider coating your exhaust and maybe some other things? If you lower the temp under the hood maybe the exhaust temps would decrease a little. With all your data logging stuff you have you are deffinately in a position to see if it would make a difference.
<strong> I thought a maf was a fuel controler. Are you saying that a wideband 02 would not be good for a maf setup?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was more thinking for it to be worth the money to buy a wideband you have to have a setup that you can do alot of tuning to make it worth while. Otherwise with a dyno run you can send that with your chips to have them give you a good A/F curve. By all means if you have the extra cash it is a nice thing to have.
BoostGuy951 the LambdaBoy cost $500 when I was looking the ones I found were all around that price. <a href="http://www.lambdaboy.com/main.html" target="_blank">http://www.lambdaboy.com/main.html</a>
Thanks for sharing that info with me Chris! It's good to find out something I was planning to do will work. It is hard to beleive you still see those high exhaust temps with the richer settings. Did you ever consider coating your exhaust and maybe some other things? If you lower the temp under the hood maybe the exhaust temps would decrease a little. With all your data logging stuff you have you are deffinately in a position to see if it would make a difference.