Front spring setup --- what's wrong with this?
06-13-2011, 12:53 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Here is a GC top spring hat bearing setup. This is not showing the sleeve or adapter used to fit this bearing assembly (1" ID) on the strut rod/shaft (usually 14mm).
I would think this integral bearing setup would reduce the springs binding when the struts rotate (during turning), but cant say for certain.
This also shows the color of GC camber plate parts, anodized finish. Not quite black, but something of a gray/gun blue color.
Hypercoils are blue, eibach are red.
I would think this integral bearing setup would reduce the springs binding when the struts rotate (during turning), but cant say for certain.
This also shows the color of GC camber plate parts, anodized finish. Not quite black, but something of a gray/gun blue color.
Hypercoils are blue, eibach are red.
06-13-2011, 01:12 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
1) get longer springs
2) Get the correct upper spring perch for the camber plates
3) Zip tie the spring onto the upper perch
The longer springs will allow for ride height adjustment as the current springs have the collar all the way at the top of the range of adjustment and I would be willing to bet it is sitting lower than it should be at that position...
the Zip ties will prevent the spring from seperating from the upper hat..
The setup you have installed is almost identical to the one I have installed, only real differences are:
I am using the GC upper hats, these DO NOT torque onto the strut tower top, they ride over it, floating... the spring pressure keeps them in contact with the camber plate, and the central bearing of the camber plate centers the strut body... trust me, and trust the engineering of the plates... you have the wrong plates.
Your springs being so short allow the setup to unseat from the perches when the suspension unloads beyond the extension point of the spring, the helper springs are supposed to prevent this, however if (as seen in your pictures) there is NO preload of the helper at full extension, the springs will unseat from the perches, and can cause MAJOR issues and binding... zip tie the springs to help some, but get longer springs and preload the helpers to prevent these issues!
2) Get the correct upper spring perch for the camber plates
3) Zip tie the spring onto the upper perch
The longer springs will allow for ride height adjustment as the current springs have the collar all the way at the top of the range of adjustment and I would be willing to bet it is sitting lower than it should be at that position...
the Zip ties will prevent the spring from seperating from the upper hat..
The setup you have installed is almost identical to the one I have installed, only real differences are:
I am using the GC upper hats, these DO NOT torque onto the strut tower top, they ride over it, floating... the spring pressure keeps them in contact with the camber plate, and the central bearing of the camber plate centers the strut body... trust me, and trust the engineering of the plates... you have the wrong plates.
Your springs being so short allow the setup to unseat from the perches when the suspension unloads beyond the extension point of the spring, the helper springs are supposed to prevent this, however if (as seen in your pictures) there is NO preload of the helper at full extension, the springs will unseat from the perches, and can cause MAJOR issues and binding... zip tie the springs to help some, but get longer springs and preload the helpers to prevent these issues!
06-13-2011, 01:43 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
BTW, it does look like that car was setup for track use. Camber plates, coilovers, brake cooling ducts are all in the picture. I'd bet you have upgraded sway bars as well.
You'll need to assess the rear suspension before you make spring changes. If you don't have coilovers in the rear, it's very likely that the PO installed thicker torsion bars to match the stiffer front springs. If you only swap the front springs, it's very likely the car would be very unbalanced - maybe to the point of being dangerously unpredictable. Ride height will also likely be off as well - high in the front.
If you guys do decide to do anything, make sure you plan appropriate front and rear changes to keep the car balanced and safe.
You'll likely have lots of takers for the track gear if you do decide to go this way.... can be a pretty big chuck of labor to swap everything back. Torsion bar swaps are not for the feint of heart.
You'll need to assess the rear suspension before you make spring changes. If you don't have coilovers in the rear, it's very likely that the PO installed thicker torsion bars to match the stiffer front springs. If you only swap the front springs, it's very likely the car would be very unbalanced - maybe to the point of being dangerously unpredictable. Ride height will also likely be off as well - high in the front.
If you guys do decide to do anything, make sure you plan appropriate front and rear changes to keep the car balanced and safe.
You'll likely have lots of takers for the track gear if you do decide to go this way.... can be a pretty big chuck of labor to swap everything back. Torsion bar swaps are not for the feint of heart.
06-13-2011, 01:47 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
1) get longer springs
2) Get the correct upper spring perch for the camber plates
3) Zip tie the spring onto the upper perch
The longer springs will allow for ride height adjustment as the current springs have the collar all the way at the top of the range of adjustment and I would be willing to bet it is sitting lower than it should be at that position...
the Zip ties will prevent the spring from seperating from the upper hat..
The setup you have installed is almost identical to the one I have installed, only real differences are:
I am using the GC upper hats, these DO NOT torque onto the strut tower top, they ride over it, floating... the spring pressure keeps them in contact with the camber plate, and the central bearing of the camber plate centers the strut body... trust me, and trust the engineering of the plates... you have the wrong plates.
Your springs being so short allow the setup to unseat from the perches when the suspension unloads beyond the extension point of the spring, the helper springs are supposed to prevent this, however if (as seen in your pictures) there is NO preload of the helper at full extension, the springs will unseat from the perches, and can cause MAJOR issues and binding... zip tie the springs to help some, but get longer springs and preload the helpers to prevent these issues!
2) Get the correct upper spring perch for the camber plates
3) Zip tie the spring onto the upper perch
The longer springs will allow for ride height adjustment as the current springs have the collar all the way at the top of the range of adjustment and I would be willing to bet it is sitting lower than it should be at that position...
the Zip ties will prevent the spring from seperating from the upper hat..
The setup you have installed is almost identical to the one I have installed, only real differences are:
I am using the GC upper hats, these DO NOT torque onto the strut tower top, they ride over it, floating... the spring pressure keeps them in contact with the camber plate, and the central bearing of the camber plate centers the strut body... trust me, and trust the engineering of the plates... you have the wrong plates.
Your springs being so short allow the setup to unseat from the perches when the suspension unloads beyond the extension point of the spring, the helper springs are supposed to prevent this, however if (as seen in your pictures) there is NO preload of the helper at full extension, the springs will unseat from the perches, and can cause MAJOR issues and binding... zip tie the springs to help some, but get longer springs and preload the helpers to prevent these issues!
Aww good times,good times!
06-13-2011, 01:49 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
06-13-2011, 01:52 PM
#21
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06-13-2011, 02:16 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Very interesting. Y'all are GOOOOOOD.
Will get it into the air later this afternoon and take a closer look / integrate all the info.
Will get it into the air later this afternoon and take a closer look / integrate all the info.
06-13-2011, 03:26 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
The spring rate, or amount the spring compresses under the weight of the car, compared to the shock piston travel determines if the spring unseats or not. Spring length and perch adjustment determine ride height.
To keep the springs seated w/ the suspension at full droop, it needs a longer, stiffer tender/helper (probably not available) to keep the main spring in contact w/ the top hat, or the struts need to be rebuilt to shorten the piston travel (this is sometimes done, but Im not recommending it). So, its very common to have high rate springs unseat from top hats.
Regardless, this only matters when the car is being jacked and set back down. Just need to ensure the spring gets properly seated on the hat. When the car is on the ground and the springs are seated, the fact that the springs drop off the hat when at droop makes no difference to binding and spring noise.
Personally, I do not like using the tender/helper or zip tying the springs to the top hat, because then the bottom of the spring is riding against the threaded strut body or collar when the car is raised and lowered. Over time, this will eventually chew up the threads and the perches will no longer travel past the damaged area on the collar (have had this happen on a couple sets of struts).
To keep the springs seated w/ the suspension at full droop, it needs a longer, stiffer tender/helper (probably not available) to keep the main spring in contact w/ the top hat, or the struts need to be rebuilt to shorten the piston travel (this is sometimes done, but Im not recommending it). So, its very common to have high rate springs unseat from top hats.
Regardless, this only matters when the car is being jacked and set back down. Just need to ensure the spring gets properly seated on the hat. When the car is on the ground and the springs are seated, the fact that the springs drop off the hat when at droop makes no difference to binding and spring noise.
Personally, I do not like using the tender/helper or zip tying the springs to the top hat, because then the bottom of the spring is riding against the threaded strut body or collar when the car is raised and lowered. Over time, this will eventually chew up the threads and the perches will no longer travel past the damaged area on the collar (have had this happen on a couple sets of struts).
06-13-2011, 03:48 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
The spring rate, or amount the spring compresses under the weight of the car, compared to the shock piston travel determines if the spring unseats or not. Spring length and perch adjustment determine ride height.
To keep the springs seated w/ the suspension at full droop, it needs a longer, stiffer tender/helper (probably not available) to keep the main spring in contact w/ the top hat, or the struts need to be rebuilt to shorten the piston travel (this is sometimes done, but Im not recommending it). So, its very common to have high rate springs unseat from top hats.
Regardless, this only matters when the car is being jacked and set back down. Just need to ensure the spring gets properly seated on the hat. When the car is on the ground and the springs are seated, the fact that the springs drop off the hat when at droop makes no difference to binding and spring noise.
Personally, I do not like using the tender/helper or zip tying the springs to the top hat, because then the bottom of the spring is riding against the threaded strut body or collar when the car is raised and lowered. Over time, this will eventually chew up the threads and the perches will no longer travel past the damaged area on the collar (have had this happen on a couple sets of struts).
To keep the springs seated w/ the suspension at full droop, it needs a longer, stiffer tender/helper (probably not available) to keep the main spring in contact w/ the top hat, or the struts need to be rebuilt to shorten the piston travel (this is sometimes done, but Im not recommending it). So, its very common to have high rate springs unseat from top hats.
Regardless, this only matters when the car is being jacked and set back down. Just need to ensure the spring gets properly seated on the hat. When the car is on the ground and the springs are seated, the fact that the springs drop off the hat when at droop makes no difference to binding and spring noise.
Personally, I do not like using the tender/helper or zip tying the springs to the top hat, because then the bottom of the spring is riding against the threaded strut body or collar when the car is raised and lowered. Over time, this will eventually chew up the threads and the perches will no longer travel past the damaged area on the collar (have had this happen on a couple sets of struts).
A longer main spring will re-introduct the ride height range that has been lost, and keep the springs in contact with the hats.. but then that is just my oppinion.. if her were to goto a 10 inch spring he would close the gap between the spring and hat, and keep preload ON the tender spring.
Last edited by JohnKoaWood; 06-13-2011 at 04:11 PM.
06-13-2011, 04:12 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Jim, I'm with you - and wondering if the thrust bearing is allowing the whole strut (top perch and shaft) to rotate. When I lower my car from jack stands, or a lift, there will be a pop as the springs seat properly on the upper perches (I let the springs rest on the lower perches so the threads on the strut are not damaged), but once they've seated, the whole strut assembly, including spring, rotates with the steering so the spring can't "bind up".
06-13-2011, 04:29 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
While I would tend to agree 100%, this cars setup appears to be using 8 inch springs... look again at his pictures, the lower seats are all the way at teh top of the range of adjustment.
A longer main spring will re-introduct the ride heing range that has been lost, and keep the springs in contact with the hats.. but then that is just my oppinion.. if her were to goto a 10 inch spring he would close the gap between the spring and hat, and keep preload ON the tender spring.
A longer main spring will re-introduct the ride heing range that has been lost, and keep the springs in contact with the hats.. but then that is just my oppinion.. if her were to goto a 10 inch spring he would close the gap between the spring and hat, and keep preload ON the tender spring.
So if you put on 10" springs leaving the lower perches as is, the springs would be 2" closer to the top hats, and the car would then sit 2" higher. But if you want the same ride height, you would need to lower the perches 2", and the top of the spring would still be the same distance from the hats as the 8" springs - clear as mud?
06-13-2011, 04:37 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
If you put on 10" springs leaving the lower perches as is, the springs would be 2" closer to the top hats, but the car would then sit 2" higher. So if you want the same ride height, you would lower the perches 2", and the top of the spring would still be the same distance from the hats, as the 8" springs - clear as mud?
John's spot on here. This is not a spring length issue. At full droop, there were will always be a gap. But unless you have a rally car, who gets to full droop except on stands?
Confirm the hats are sitting correctly and are the right hats. Zip tie or safety wire the hats to the spring tops. Live with a little popping when turning hard left or right out of the driveway. Call it good.
06-13-2011, 04:58 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
So you think it looks like an 8 inch spring? That would explain it! Because it looks like everything is there. Except for maybe the spacer for the helper spring, never saw that myself, but makes sense.
Measure the spring, you can get the same rate in a Hyper coil 2.5 in a 10 inch length, sounds like that will fix it!
Well I guess I'm just piling on but I'm going with the you need a 10 inch spring and lower the perch camp!
Measure the spring, you can get the same rate in a Hyper coil 2.5 in a 10 inch length, sounds like that will fix it!
Well I guess I'm just piling on but I'm going with the you need a 10 inch spring and lower the perch camp!
06-13-2011, 05:13 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Wow, this is starting to make sense. Thanks for the information.
It definitely seems like a couple inches is missing.
At least for road use.
Did find a receipt for the stuff. Feb 2001.
Came from / installed by IMA Motorsport, Alexandria VA
Called it a racing kit with special valving.
4 Shocks, Camber plates, tender springs, main springs, lock plates-strut, upper seats.
Hypercoil, but no further data.
Car was stored in Georgetown, might have spent some time doing DE at Summit Pt in '01 or '02.
Says the was to be lowered, corner balanced and aligned for track.
Rear is squirley to me, gotta check there too. Not banging around though.
Gotta clear the garage and get this inside for a close look.
It definitely seems like a couple inches is missing.
At least for road use.
Did find a receipt for the stuff. Feb 2001.
Came from / installed by IMA Motorsport, Alexandria VA
Called it a racing kit with special valving.
4 Shocks, Camber plates, tender springs, main springs, lock plates-strut, upper seats.
Hypercoil, but no further data.
Car was stored in Georgetown, might have spent some time doing DE at Summit Pt in '01 or '02.
Says the was to be lowered, corner balanced and aligned for track.
Rear is squirley to me, gotta check there too. Not banging around though.
Gotta clear the garage and get this inside for a close look.
06-13-2011, 05:20 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
If you're thinking you need a 10" spring, we're not communicating well. You don't need to change the spring length.
To reduce the popping sound, you need to focus on the hats and confirm they are correct.
To reduce the popping sound, you need to focus on the hats and confirm they are correct.