Picstr

Hey all, I'll try to be brief and not bore. Was a previous 95 M3 Lux owner(Boston Green) Ahem, before I got married.I am now divorced and I unfortunately lost the M3. I can't put into words how much I loved that car, the drive home after purchase was as close to heaven I think I've ever been, Umm. a few exeptions of course, but I digress. The divorce ruined me pretty much financially but I've been making a comeback and had a goal to get the M3 back, I stumbled over a few posts regarding the 951 so I decided to head over here to see what all the fuss was about.
I must admit the the body style did'nt seem to effect me as much as the E36 but that's probably because the M3 was burned into my gord.
I think I've been reading and learning every day for the past month, the most important being if scheduled maintenance is'nt done it tends to be very expensive, I don't mind working on my cars, I prefer it, usually though I end up doing the hardest possible job, the hardest possible way, (note to self, stop doing that).
Background finished.
After all the reading I found that performance wise the 951 can fairly easily pass the M3 at a modest price, suspension wise I think the 951 speaks for itself. This had me fairly impressed but the clincher was when I read a thread about some of the miles that were on these cars, I was amazed, one guy said he had like 335K!
I was planning on an August time frame for purchase, figured on spending around 8K, and hopefully get something at the very least properly maintained, obviously mint is a little further up the price chain.
I've been serching ebay and auto trader everyday just to see what the market is and I figure 8K should do it. I've found a couple in the area that "appeared" to be in the ball park condition wise but just barely out of my price range.
However I spotted a red 87 951 at a dealership abut 100 miles from me, 126,000 miles, manual,reciepts, but it's got the dang manhole cover wheels, asking 8000K. Last week I thought of calling, then thought I just was'nt ready yet,
yesterday out of curiousity I called him, its still there, asked him basic questions, he said the timing belt was changed 6 months ago and that it was repainted. This raised an eyebrow but found that the title is clear and its not been wrecked. I told him my financial state and he said you come in here with 2K more and its yours.
This adds up to $5900 for an 87 951. I told him I'd get back to him. Unfortunately they are not open on weekends? Anyways long story short, any hints, tips or tricks would be very much appreciated, thanks for the time. Oh I tried posting the link but didn't seem to work like I wanted it. Regards, Picstr.

turbo944

Picstr,

Before you buy, don't forget PPI....

Okay, bad rhyme, but a pre-purchase inspection might help you reveal what's up with the car. Since you already know that undone maintenance can be expensive, you don't yet know what's been done with this one. I wouldn't have it done at that dealership, IMHO unless they would be willing to offer some kind of a warranty to show that their check was thorough and that you weren't driving off the lot in a hand grenade with the pin already pulled.

That said, a repaint isn't a bad thing in many cases. These cars with their low noses take a rock chip beating! Mine needs a repaint as it is now at 116K and so I would guess many 100K plus 944s probably need one by that point.

That may not be a bad price however, but you should have a couple of g's in the bank to cover those post purchase items that need to be done. For me direct repairs only would have been the right front A-arm ($200 rebuild plus install cost--I don't have a lot of tools or ready free help available) and the A/C compressor is dead and I'm going with Griffith's Cool Compressor to R134 kit and by the time that is put in (hope to do a lot of that myself as far as wrenching once the system has been verified free of R12) I expect another $700-800 total. Plus knick-knacks here and there....and I had a foglight get busted and upgraded to Euros for about $330. It adds up very quickly. Plus I've started on a slow journey of replacing all fluids in the car over the next few months as well.

Really, my suggestion would be *any* 944 Turbos that show up in an area you can go and test drive, do it. That way you get a feel for them and how the poorly kept ones run and how the really nice ones run. With a turbo car and possible leaks, weak wastegate springs and such, there can be a huge difference.

If the car checks out and it's absolutely pristine and a "gotta have", I chose a rather short term loan rather than cash up front for part of it just to leave some money in the bank and with interest rates being so low, it isn't going to hit me too hard. That way I wasn't draining myself completely for the repairs I knew were coming and ones that might come...

Anyway, many others may reply, so let's hear what they have to say

Good luck on your search and hope you get all sorted out soon...

Cheers!

icat

Wheels on an 87 are easily replaced with Cups or Turbo Twists. Plenty around, and the offset on the 87 is the same - so no need for spacers. I didn't get a PPI done on my 951, but the car had full records going back to the day it came home from the dealer. I would definitely recommend a PPI though. It can also be a great bargaining chip. Good luck!

fast951

Make sure to drive the 951, it's a different feel than the E36 M3. Drive it with the stereo turned off and listen for road noise and abnormal sounds...

Make sure you get a PPI from someone that knows the 951. Expensive items to check for: Clutch, transaxle, headgasket, Turbo, A/C, A-arms, request a compression and a leakdown tests... Also check for any sign of body damage..

Read all of the records, it gives you an idea of what has been replaced/fixed also it's a good indication of the maintenance cost.

I doubt the dealer has more than $3-4K in the car, book value is very low on these cars. Keep it in mind when you make an offer (after you are satisfied with the car's condition).

Picstr

Thanks for the quick replies, yes I know there can be many places to look for worn components. I've been reading thru alot of the info for PPI's, stuff like oil in the coolant tank, milkshake syndrome, leaks in the various parts of the engine, and wierd sounds. I can tell ya right now that its going to need new parts somewhere.
The good thing is I don't need it for a daily driver, so if I gotta wait for a widget or something its not a big deal.
I know I'm gonna jinx myself right here and now, but I just want something I can tinker with, and ultimately be excited just to drive it. Hopefully the tinkering will be washing waxing and changing the oil, but now that I've already jinxed myself I can forget about that, I might as well start taking the head off now.
Thanks again for the replies, as it stands now I'll probably look it over on Monday.
Regards, Picstr.

turbo944

Good luck on it! Be careful....boost is addictive....

Cheers!

adrial

I believe the suspension on the E36 M3 is far more advanced than that of the 951, but you should definetely take the 951 for a test drive and a PPI before you buy. At the very least a compression test and leakdown are good ideas.

Make sure you let the car warm up before you get on it!

$5700 isn't bad at all...I'd go for it if everything else checks out and you want a 951. Even if there's some problems...that price is low enough that its still worth it.

Picstr

Adrial, yes the M3 does have the more advanced suspension but even on the M3 boards when track talk began, the 944/51 was always mentioned.
The impression I've been getting is that the 944/51 has a more tossable chasis, weighs less (M3 3400lbs) and brakes better than the M3.
To be honest I don't know if I'll be getting a PPI done or not, I plan on doing a pretty thorough walk around and grill the salesman about the vehicles past.
Regards, Picstr.

Danno

Wow, $5900 for an '87 with fairly low miles is quite a good deal (considering the prices on these cars have been creeping up the past year). Here's some items that haven't been mentioned for the PPI:

compression check - will tell you the internal condition of the engine like rings and valves (135-145 all across is usually good and tight).

oil analysis - could pinpoint excessive rod or main-bearing wear. Rod bearings are easy at 10-12 hours. Main-bearings would require pulling the engine.

clutch - this is the most complicated and most time-consuming task on the car (even longer than pulling the engine). Amount of remaining clutch-disc material can be measured through the inspection hole at the bottom of the tranny.

I think that's really about it for the really tough stuff. Everything else like wheel-bearings, suspension bushings, brake rotors/pads are pretty simple half-day DIY jobs.

slevy951

May I add to have someone familiar with the 951 to drive it. Turbocharged cars feel different than N/A cars (ie-BMW M3). There may be something wrong with the cars turbo system but if you're not familiar with it, you could think it's normal. It may not be boosting fully, slow boost, etc. Maybe some Rennlister in FL can step up to help you out here??

gatorbait

OK Picstr, you've gotten some excellent suggestions, but I think that I can also help you here with a comparison b/t the cars.

My credentials: owned a '92 325is, a '96 328is, and a '98 E36 M3 Coupe daily driver (the best car I've driven to date) from 2/98 through 10/02. My M3 was lightly modified: H&R coilovers with a one inch drop, X-brace, front and rear AA strut braces, AA catback exhaust, AA OBD-II software, ECIS CAI, Bridgestone SO3's, etc. Since December of '02, I've driven an '86 944 Turbo exclusively. Here's my very unscientific comparison:

Handling--Advantage M3. Make no mistake--you can't make a 944/951 handle like an M3. The 951 suspension, which is quite capable and was considered great for its day, is not more tossable than the M3's (IMO). Despite the fact that the stock Boge/Sachs suspension on the M3 ages faster than a moth, the M3 is a much easier and a more forgiving car to drive, particularly at the limits of adhesion. Drop Koni or H&R coilovers into the M3, lower the car an inch or so, and you'll have a car that both rides and handles *better* than a 951 (*well, my 951 at least), or most any other car for that matter unless you measure satisfaction by driving in a straight line. In the curves, there are few cars that satisfy more than the E36 M3. Fyi, I also have more squat/dive in my 951 than the Red October.

Speed--Advantage 951. For sheer velocity, the 951 is the car of choice. It doesn't have that wonderfully torquey and smooth I-6 that the Bimmer has, but without spending a ton of money you can make the 951 4-banger fly. With the sole exception of your M3's model year ('95), the OBD-II M3's are very hard to modify (for any significant power gains), unless you have unlimited access to Uday Hussein's Swiss bank account. In top end grunt, the 951 leaves an E36 M3 for dead.

Gearbox--Advantage M3 by a hair, unless you put a ss kit on the Bimmer, which tips it in the BMW's favor. The ZF tranny on the M3 leaves a lot to be desired though the Getrag gearboxes on the remainder of the E36 cars were much more reliable (IMO).

Brakes--Advantage 951, by a hair.

Steering--M3, by a hair.

Safety--Advantage M3 (my 951 has no ABS, no traction control, nor airbags--other 951 drivers bought their cars from previous owners with less of a death wish than my PO).

Clutch--Advantage M3 (my 951's clutch feels more like a leg press).

Convenience--Advantage M3. I'd kill to have auto up/down windows on my 951. Also, I'd describe Porsche's funky control layout as "voodoo ergonomics." By comparison, with the M3, all the controls fall easily to hand.

Fun to drive--Advantage M3 (under 4000 RPM); Advantage 951 (over 3500 RPM--boost is addictive).
Day-to-day fun to drive: Advantage M3.

Keep in mind here that the 951 is a much older design than the E36 M3. From that perspective, and from the all-important perspective of price, the P-car is an absolute bargain (face it--you can't buy a "reasonable condition" M3 for under 6 grand).

Follow the advice offered by others(especially inspection-related advice), reset your expections in accordance with the P-car's age and condition, and you can have great fun with a 951.

Good luck with your decision.

slevy951

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by gatorbait:
<strong>Convenience--Advantage M3. I'd kill to have auto up/down windows on my 951.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Check with paragon-products.com on this point......

Picstr

Wow, thanks everyone for all the replies, on the M3 forum I'd post a question like this and get like 3 responses in 2 weeks, unfortunately it seems the E36 M3 is turning into a tuner/show car rather than a proven performance track machine, whomever has the biggest wheels and biggest woofer wins, unfortunate.
Gatorbait, thanks for the comparison but don't ya think its a bit unfair to give the M3 brand new coilovers lower it an inch then compare it to a stock 16 year old 951?
Do you think it would make a difference if the 951 had M030 sways and maybe some sportier springs to go with some Koni yellows? Just throwing this out there to see if the cars might be alittle more equal when upgraded equally.
You are spot on concerning the HP mods, its very expensive to mod the M3 past 300 crank HP without a huge bank account, and plus from what I've been learning here drive train loss "seems" to be a little higher on the M3. I miss that car.
Again thanks all for the replies, I didn't sleep very much last night and I probably won't get much tonight, all because of this dang car, maybe I should start drinking again.
Regards, Picstr.

Picstr

Gatorbait, sorry didn't read your sig and didn't realize you had a pretty decent suspension under ya so adjust my statement to coilovers in place of the koni's, would it come out a bit more even??
Regards,Picstr.

gatorbait

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by slevy951:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by gatorbait:
<strong>Convenience--Advantage M3. I'd kill to have auto up/down windows on my 951.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Check with paragon-products.com on this point......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Slevy951,

Thanks, I already have. I learned about the product about 4-weeks after I installed 4x6 replacement speakers in the doors (figures). Unfortunatley, it appears that I'd have to take out the new speakers to make the auto up/down device sold by Paragon to fit (that's where it mounts). There's sufficient room with the stock speakers, but not enough with the 4x6 Infinity plate speakers that I now have). I'm thinking about going to separates when finances allow to enable that nifty window device to fit.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Andy