Danno

For cold-starts, we include an air-temp sensor to retain the stock cold-start enrichment routine in the DME. This requires a sensor that actually changes with air-temperatures, not just a fixed voltage-clamp to simulate 70-degreesF all the time.

Here's a before & after dyno test on a Rennlist member car (keep in mind that bone-stock non-S turbo is 183rwhp & 190lb-ft TQ): <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002377" target="_blank">Steve Cooper dyno (255.9rwhp & 277.9lb-ft TQ)</a>
And another dyno-chart: <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=004201" target="_blank">Redeye (262.57rwhp & 298.42lb-ft TQ)</a>

Both of these are very close to the 260rwhp & 300lb-ft TQ that we have from our own test car (if S.Cooper had a cat-bypass, he'd match our TQ).

"How close are the preprogrammed settings going to be to maximized ... and how much HP is there to achieve if the programmer is used?"

We try to get the chips as close as possible and in most cases, no adjustments are needed. Some require just 1-5% +/- nudges here and there. I think Redeye's got a chip for a bigger turbo by mistake; these have low-end fuel dialed out due to the extra lag and more fuel added in the upper ranges. His car's an '88 with an '86 DME, strange... Anyway, a new chip and programmer's on the way... These minor adjustments don't yield an dramatic change in power (1-3%) but does improve driveability and off-idle behavior.

Here's some comments on off-idle behavior and using the programmer:

<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=012300&p=" target="_blank">bern86951</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=002669" target="_blank">Jason_86_951</a>

I've since incorporated the adjustments into the chips themselves.

Steve Cooper, any comments on using the programmer?

new2porsche

Is it possible to tune off dyno in a realworld situation with this setup if you have an onboard wideband O2 setup? For that matter ... I have good info on this setup ... but they're usually $1200+ ... anyone used the Wide-band unit sold at <a href="http://www.lindseyracing.com?" target="_blank">www.lindseyracing.com?</a>

DANNO ... so the map kit makes ~20 HP more than just your chips do by themselves(238-255)?

Danno

"Is it possible to tune off dyno in a realworld situation with this setup if you have an onboard wideband O2 setup?"

Yes, there are several people who've done this. Ski and IanM comes to mind and they've been very instrumental in helping us develop our products with their feedback. I think the <a href="http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm" target="_blank">TechEdge unit</a> is the WB-O2 set-up to get because it has RPM in its datalogging. With our current exchange-rate, the constructed unit is $320, add $169 for a L1H1 NTK sensor ($489 total).

"so the map kit makes ~20 HP more than just your chips do by themselves(238-255)?"

So far at 15psi, we're seeing 235-238rwhp from our current chip-upgrade alone (+50hp). With the MAP-1/2 the results we have are with the old V4 chips. Redeye's results with tuning once he gets the correct chips and the programmber will be around 5% better, around 270rwhp or +85hp over stock (+35 over chips alone). Add about 25hp for TurboS cars. This is really the absolute limit of the stock turbo and injectors.

The adjustability of the MAP kit will really allow you to use any size turbo you want and changing injectors is as easy as flipping a switch for the right sizing without any signal-massaging or mapping changes.

new2porsche

I am curious if anyone can show me some graphs they did using one of the wideband O2 sensor/datalogger kits ... maybe even a before and after fuel map adjustments?
If you need a few hours of dyno time to adjust AFR, it offsets a good portion of the fuel map adjustment components and onboard O2. Too bad my Palm is a POS.
I'll be considering some or all of this upgrade in the future ... specifically after I diagnose my leaky intake!(starting with the BOV)

Thanks

Ski

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Danno:
[QB]"Is it possible to tune off dyno in a realworld situation with this setup if you have an onboard wideband O2 setup?"

Yes, there are several people who've done this. Ski and IanM comes to mind and they've been very instrumental in helping us develop our products with their feedback. I think the <a href="http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm" target="_blank">TechEdge unit</a> is the WB-O2 set-up to get QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks Danno. Let me speak for the Guru chips and the Tech Edge. First the Tech Edge has saved me time and money for the dyno time, plus the fact that I've been able to tell Danno about the A/F ratio; along with boost, fuel pressure, octane used etc. I got the 1.0 version before they came out with the 1.5. I've been really pleased with the WBO2. Not to mention the price.

The Guru chips - best yet. With my mods(head, Kokeln turbo, AFPR, upgraded intercooler, hard pipes, 3" full exhaust, all exhaust parts Jet Hot coated to retain heat, 65# injectors, still run the AFM) Danno has been able to get a chip dialed in for me that at 17 psi with 96 octane,,that pulls a nice flat 12.3-12.6 all the way to 5800rpm, then just goes to 12.8 at 6000. We tweaked the fuel pressure just a couple of psi and that was it on the last chip modification. This chip should satisfy most with similar mods with K27, Garretts - Danno may need to subtract or add a little fuel for your own car but what a difference it made. I picked up an additional 28hp from my last dyno run just by getting the A/F dailed in. I have the DME set for 65# injectors and I have the MAP plug jumpered and running pretty much 96 octane home brew. MUSTANG dyno was 282rwhp and 291 torque. The previous was 254/268 repspectively on Turbo Cup Car chips/55#. I was so rich that it looked like a Grey Hound bus on the dyno behind my car!!

Danno did you get the box?

Steve Cooper

I'm flattered to be asked to interject some comments...

Danno sent me the handheld controller about a week ago, and I must say that tuning the Guru MAP AFM unit with this very cool device is extremely easy.

Initially, I was a bit uneasy about jumping into the tuning process with the controller, fearful that I would screw something up. My Guru stage 2 equipped, otherwise stock engined, 86 951 had failed the idle portion of the smog check here in CA and left me with little choice. To pass and renew my registration, I would need to alter some fuel settings. And Danno assured me that any changes I made could be backed out as easily as they had been entered. He was right.

I spoke with Danno about the smog problem, and he sent the unit via express mail; it arrived less than 30 hours after I contacted him. He also sent some simple email instructions on how to alter and load the settings, once the handheld was connected.

It was this simple-
1. Connect the unit to the supplied ribbon cable and the AFM unit with car's ignition off. 1 minute
2. Turn on car and scroll through categories to find out what fields my car used during idle. 1-2 minutes (curiosity slowed me down, the fields are damn cool to check out)
3. Look at the supplied worksheet to confirm what zones are used for idle. 5 minutes
4. Reduce fuel settings by -8% in the 4 Zones controlling idle. 2 minutes
5. Load new settings into unit. 1 minute.
6. Done.

The results?

My car passed at idle with half the maximum legal level of HC and CO.

On advice from Danno, I also connected my Ox Sensor to the AFM at the DME, so the display could show me the Ox voltage in real time to gauge rich/lean conditions in any zone.

This took about an hour to patch into the sensor wire- I suck at soldering...

But after performing that one step step, I could then use the sensor to determine Air/Fuel ratios in the pipe, pre-cat, without a dyno, in real time.

I positioned the fully wired in controller on my dash so I could see it when driving, and watched the sensor in a variety of driving conditions and gears. I also checked the various zones for these same driving conditions to determine where the changes could be made. Within a couple of different short drives, and a an hour or so of cool investigation, I found that I was running lean in my deceleration zones (no engine load, high vacuum, at a variety of RPMs) I richened these zones up a little (+12%) and found the transition from acceleration to deceleration was much smoother. The torque and power hadn't changed at all, but the car was a good bit smoother.

I had also had a little bit of trouble with warm re-starts, and by adding fuel in the very low rpm-low load zones, I cured this issue completely.

This weekend, I fabricated a high flow cat exhaust from an old stock 951 cat unit I had lying around and a new CarSound 96000 cat. I'm looking forward to a dyno day up here in the bay area to see how much more power I can eek out of the car, and with the tuner, I'll be able to look at the dyno sheet and make the changes myself.

I'd encourage anyone considering purchasing/using the Guru MAP kit and AFM replacement to get the handheld controller; spend the hour or so it takes to figure out how this unit interacts with you, the chip and the AFM and go at it. It's really simple, and really powerful, and failsafe to boot.

I showed the set-up to my friend that owns FastLane porsche here in Santa Cruz. He was very impressed by what this whole system did.

new2porsche, I had started a thread nearly identically titled to this one about a year back, looking for about 300 hp at the crank, 270 or so at the wheels. Danno gave me some good input back then, along with Ian and a few others. Since that point in time, Danno introduced the Guru MAP 2 kit. It has met my requirements fully. Like you, I'd also be interested in doing some data-logging of the various fields. My next step will be to pickup a serial cable adapter for the ribbon cable and see if the Link windows application can be of some help. Danno mentioned that the data can be logged and viewed in an excel spread sheet.

Cheers,

Steve Cooper

AC

Unfortunately, cheap and 951's do not go together. If you go cheap, it will be more expensive to fix later. Take your time. First, if you have original suspension, use your money to upgrade. This will make a significant difference. You can brake later in the coners; therefore, come out of the the corners quicker. Second, take care of any aging components, fuel lines, vacuum lines, gaskets, wheel bearings (suspension), check and lub cv joints, etc. All this maintenance is key to having a high horsepower car. Make sure to read the technodyne article. Very informative. I ambitious dream of those figures. Last year, I too began the search for everyday drivability and partial track use which has led to my setup. I am gathering bits and pieces together inorder to try and tune them to a reliable 350 rwhp. Do not be overly anxious. Take your time and make the mods as your budget sees fit. But make sure the normal routine maintence and aging components are taken care of and the car will outlast you. Good luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />