Best way to 300 rwhp
12-07-2001, 02:31 AM
#32
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In response to a couple of comments & questions. About a month ago I spoke with Jon Milledge regarding his "kit". He told me as other have posted that he could not source the turbo he needed. Then, about two weeks ago I received an E-Mail from a friend and PCA member that he had just installed one of the JME's 360 H/P kits. I'll try to reach Jon for clarification. I apologize if I mislead anyone, it was not my intention. About my E.T. at the drag strip. I am not much of a drag racer, although it's a blast, the start can be bruttle on everything. The main reason for me running was to see if my speed through the traps was comparable with what one would expect from 520 H/P. The runs were made prior to the recent cam change (supposedly worth another 20+ H/P) The motor was dyno'd at a little over 520 H/P at 6700 RPM. Speed at the end of the 1/4 is a good indicator of the H/P produced. I'm running Dunlop SP8000's (245mm)with 34 PSI. I pick the rev's up to 4000 and release the clutch, and have the throttle halfway down. The tires spin wildly. I'm careful not to hit one of the rev limiters, but shift before the car's speed matches the RPM. So, I bog in second at full throttle, then boom, sideways. I back-peddle again, so that the car can catch up with the tires before redline. It missed it again, but the bog was lees noticable. From there it's easy, a little spin in third (it's hot and fairly sticky) otherwise these tires spin through third. I finished with a somewhat dissapointing 12.2. That was done with somewhere around 1.2-1.25 bar boost. I have run 1.35. Don't know that that I'll try it again, as I mentioned, it's hard on everything. On low boost (.7 bar) my time was 12.7 @ just over 120 mph. In a spearate test I used a G-Tech to obtain a 0-60 time. My best was 4.9 sec. I tried it once. If that is accurate, and I think it's pretty good at that low speed, then my 60-130 time is in the low seven second range. In response to how much invested into the motor. I'll take the 5th.
12-07-2001, 03:03 AM
#33
Race Director
Check out this recent thread: My 951 mod story.... There was another guy on the Rennlist email digests that recently built a 400rwhp using a similar configuration (stock bottom-end, rods, crank, pistons, cam).
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is, "Am I going to be happy with 300rwhp forever?". If so, then MAF kits are fine.
But if you eventually want more, you're going to have to ditch the MAF and go with a standalone engine-management system.
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is, "Am I going to be happy with 300rwhp forever?". If so, then MAF kits are fine.
But if you eventually want more, you're going to have to ditch the MAF and go with a standalone engine-management system.
12-07-2001, 08:04 AM
#35
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Several things in regards to this thread- THIS IS A LONG REPLY..
I've spoken w/several of you on the phone, including Jon Milledge- I spoke w/him awhile back, several times, about chips. He told me he quit building the 360 turbo's b/c some of it's parts came from a large supplier and, that several major companies (not sure I should list specifics) bought some of these parts in bulk (for COMPLETELY different uses) so they were often unavailable. He had hoped to build some different turbos by fall, but is usually behind on things like that b/c he is more into building whole engines for SERIOUS competitors, AND, he is a one-man company. This is partly why he doesn't seem to like spending time on the phone discussing various modifications for these cars...
As for the 360 Turbo ($3600)- it probably was a relative bargain considering it was a complete kit w/injectors, etc. His cams seem to be pretty reasonably priced too, and, yes, some of his carbon fibre pieces and other machined parts are BEAUTIFUL! Check out his website...
As for the price of his engines- I know that not everyone wants to share such info, and this is not a claim to what 86944turbo spent on his, nor am I in any way aware of all the misc things he did, or didn't do (even though I've spoken w/him). I EMPHASIZE AGAIN that this has NOTHING to do w/the cost of 86944turbo's engine- I have NO idea what he spent and I'm NOT trying to give any estimate or implication about his particular situation, as that would be very rude. BUT, to give an idea of what Jon's engines CAN go for: when speaking w/Jon, the BALLPARK he gave me for a FULLY BUILT engine (turn-key conversion) was in the $30K range (track) and $35K+ (street car). I believe these were on the order of 700 crank HP (don't quote me). Scott Gomes quoted me a base of ~$15K ahwile back, for a strong, rebuilt engine w/some mods, and, he recently advertised a USED Bob Norwood Doom II engine (~1000HP) in the Rennlist classifieds for ~$30K, and I don't believe it included engine management either(?)...
Like Danno said- most of these people eventually go to better engine managent at a certain level...
Jon also told me that the 951 standard 15- 20% drivetrain loss estimates is exagerated. He said they lose <10%. This compares well to 86944turbo's 434 crank & 392 (wheel) #'s. I think that many of the discrepencies and inconsistencies can be explained by the use of different dynos, tuners, & builders, and, in some case, straight out dishonetsy. My Turbo S dynoed at 198hp & 216ft-lbs right after I bought it, in a fairly poor state of tune- it was, obviously, weak, but not so much in TQ- ~20% & ~16% if the engine was putting out it's full amount(?)...
I've mentioned this before, but how much power chips, etc can yeild for these cars is limited by the variance b/t the cars being used & their state of tune, the age of the chips, etc. I've been told 951's are bad cars to chip b/c of their age and normal conditions, and that they really need to be dynoed individually while burning chips. This can yeild MUCH BETTER results for some 951's and may partially account for why some people are blown away by simple chips and others seem to be indifferent. Evidently, chips can also lose programming over time and should eventually be reburned...
Other things: Jon Milledge told me that MAFs ARE a little overrated, as are P&P heads...
I find it odd that some people say 275lb springs are too hard for street while others say 400lb are comfortable- I would think 300lbs would be about as hard as most would consider acceptable unless they frequented EXTREMELY SMOOTH roads- that's about DOUBLE what the stock springs are. I'm considering 250lb & 28mm hollow t-bars & Bilsteins. I'm sure that some of the difference in relative comfort is due to the shocks themselves- not just spring rates- I know they need to match. Luke- specifically what kind of shocks are you referring to in regards to the S2 w/400lb springs that feels smoother than your stock 951?
Anyway, sorry so long- good luck to everyone
I've spoken w/several of you on the phone, including Jon Milledge- I spoke w/him awhile back, several times, about chips. He told me he quit building the 360 turbo's b/c some of it's parts came from a large supplier and, that several major companies (not sure I should list specifics) bought some of these parts in bulk (for COMPLETELY different uses) so they were often unavailable. He had hoped to build some different turbos by fall, but is usually behind on things like that b/c he is more into building whole engines for SERIOUS competitors, AND, he is a one-man company. This is partly why he doesn't seem to like spending time on the phone discussing various modifications for these cars...
As for the 360 Turbo ($3600)- it probably was a relative bargain considering it was a complete kit w/injectors, etc. His cams seem to be pretty reasonably priced too, and, yes, some of his carbon fibre pieces and other machined parts are BEAUTIFUL! Check out his website...
As for the price of his engines- I know that not everyone wants to share such info, and this is not a claim to what 86944turbo spent on his, nor am I in any way aware of all the misc things he did, or didn't do (even though I've spoken w/him). I EMPHASIZE AGAIN that this has NOTHING to do w/the cost of 86944turbo's engine- I have NO idea what he spent and I'm NOT trying to give any estimate or implication about his particular situation, as that would be very rude. BUT, to give an idea of what Jon's engines CAN go for: when speaking w/Jon, the BALLPARK he gave me for a FULLY BUILT engine (turn-key conversion) was in the $30K range (track) and $35K+ (street car). I believe these were on the order of 700 crank HP (don't quote me). Scott Gomes quoted me a base of ~$15K ahwile back, for a strong, rebuilt engine w/some mods, and, he recently advertised a USED Bob Norwood Doom II engine (~1000HP) in the Rennlist classifieds for ~$30K, and I don't believe it included engine management either(?)...
Like Danno said- most of these people eventually go to better engine managent at a certain level...
Jon also told me that the 951 standard 15- 20% drivetrain loss estimates is exagerated. He said they lose <10%. This compares well to 86944turbo's 434 crank & 392 (wheel) #'s. I think that many of the discrepencies and inconsistencies can be explained by the use of different dynos, tuners, & builders, and, in some case, straight out dishonetsy. My Turbo S dynoed at 198hp & 216ft-lbs right after I bought it, in a fairly poor state of tune- it was, obviously, weak, but not so much in TQ- ~20% & ~16% if the engine was putting out it's full amount(?)...
I've mentioned this before, but how much power chips, etc can yeild for these cars is limited by the variance b/t the cars being used & their state of tune, the age of the chips, etc. I've been told 951's are bad cars to chip b/c of their age and normal conditions, and that they really need to be dynoed individually while burning chips. This can yeild MUCH BETTER results for some 951's and may partially account for why some people are blown away by simple chips and others seem to be indifferent. Evidently, chips can also lose programming over time and should eventually be reburned...
Other things: Jon Milledge told me that MAFs ARE a little overrated, as are P&P heads...
I find it odd that some people say 275lb springs are too hard for street while others say 400lb are comfortable- I would think 300lbs would be about as hard as most would consider acceptable unless they frequented EXTREMELY SMOOTH roads- that's about DOUBLE what the stock springs are. I'm considering 250lb & 28mm hollow t-bars & Bilsteins. I'm sure that some of the difference in relative comfort is due to the shocks themselves- not just spring rates- I know they need to match. Luke- specifically what kind of shocks are you referring to in regards to the S2 w/400lb springs that feels smoother than your stock 951?
Anyway, sorry so long- good luck to everyone
12-07-2001, 09:51 AM
#36
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12-07-2001, 03:16 PM
#37
Nordschleife Master
Robby,
There was a thread that went something like "Ledas vs. protrac". Larry, the owner of the S2 was talking about his setup. He is an extremely knowledgable guy. I am an idiot on the subject(just one of many).
They are double adjustable monotube (gas emulsion) shocks and struts that he and Evan of www.morrisdampers.com engineered.
I can vouce that they make an AMAZING 944 setup. They usually work on rally cars though.
There was a thread that went something like "Ledas vs. protrac". Larry, the owner of the S2 was talking about his setup. He is an extremely knowledgable guy. I am an idiot on the subject(just one of many).
They are double adjustable monotube (gas emulsion) shocks and struts that he and Evan of www.morrisdampers.com engineered.
I can vouce that they make an AMAZING 944 setup. They usually work on rally cars though.
12-07-2001, 06:37 PM
#38
Nordschleife Master
12-09-2001, 06:19 AM
#39
Race Director
I find it odd that some people say 275lb springs are too hard for street
while others say 400lb are comfortable- I would think 300lbs would be about as hard as most would consider acceptable unless they frequented EXTREMELY SMOOTH roads- that's about DOUBLE what the stock springs are.
while others say 400lb are comfortable- I would think 300lbs would be about as hard as most would consider acceptable unless they frequented EXTREMELY SMOOTH roads- that's about DOUBLE what the stock springs are.
What you really have to do is hop back-and-forth between the modded 951 and a stock one (with working shocks) and you'll definitely notice the difference in ride-quality. Or better yet, hop into a SupraTT or a BMW M3 and you'll be amazed!
Plus, shocks makes a bigger difference in ride-quality than springs. I've always like Bilsteins because with their progressive deCarbon damping, they can handle a wider variety of bumps well. Compared to Konis which operate well over a narrow range (hence the adjustability). And the Bilstein's single-tube high-pressure gas design resists overheating and foaming fade better under demanding conditions.
I gave a guy a drive at the last NorCal Pizza Run and he was amazed that my car with Bilsteins rode smoother than his stock 951 (especially over Botts Dots on the freeway). And I've got 250lb springs too (almost double stock spring rate). But I suspect his shocks are bad.
Y ball bearing......I have been told from many sources that a single bearing(like pretty much all BB turbos for the 951) Will display no benifits on the street compared to a garret of the same manner
The boost-levels a turbo puts out has a curve, like a dyno power-curve. May look like max-boost of 0-psi@2000rpm, 5-psi@2500rpm, 10-psi@3000rpm, 15-psi@3500rpm, etc.
So the differences with the ball-bearing turbo is how quickly it can get to these boost-levels when you're just crusing. Boost will be low or in the vacumn range (-4psi typically). Then when you stomp on the gas, the turbo has to build boost from that level up to its maximum at that rpm. The difference with the ball-bearing is like 1/4-sec. vs. 1/2-sec, something you definitely notice, especially coming out of corners and stepping on the gas.
12-09-2001, 12:51 PM
#40
Nordschleife Master
quote:
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Y ball bearing......I have been told from many sources that a single bearing(like pretty much all BB turbos for the 951) Will display no benifits on the street compared to a garret of the same manner
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Sorry what i meant by "Benifits" was the spool up time. I am turbo shopping right now and am torn between the SFR stages 2or 3.
I have been told that the spool up differences between BB turbos and no BB turbos is too insignifcant to spend money on.
And regards to my stock worn out suspension, It was noticably smooth than my dad's mountanineer. I had been in larry 400# springed car several times directly after driving my car.
Maybe www.morissdamper.com 's products are just so superior to all the other out there? His car did not roll @ all and it didn't "dive" under breaking. It didn't "squat" under that infamous "torquier of line" 944S2.
AND>>>> it was much SMOOTHER than my car. My shocks still have life in them, but now ive been spoiled. If nobody beleives me, because this setup sounds way too good to be true, Call up www.morissdamper.com today. ABSOLUTELY a great product. And i am in no way affiliated with them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y ball bearing......I have been told from many sources that a single bearing(like pretty much all BB turbos for the 951) Will display no benifits on the street compared to a garret of the same manner
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry what i meant by "Benifits" was the spool up time. I am turbo shopping right now and am torn between the SFR stages 2or 3.
I have been told that the spool up differences between BB turbos and no BB turbos is too insignifcant to spend money on.
And regards to my stock worn out suspension, It was noticably smooth than my dad's mountanineer. I had been in larry 400# springed car several times directly after driving my car.
Maybe www.morissdamper.com 's products are just so superior to all the other out there? His car did not roll @ all and it didn't "dive" under breaking. It didn't "squat" under that infamous "torquier of line" 944S2.
AND>>>> it was much SMOOTHER than my car. My shocks still have life in them, but now ive been spoiled. If nobody beleives me, because this setup sounds way too good to be true, Call up www.morissdamper.com today. ABSOLUTELY a great product. And i am in no way affiliated with them.
12-09-2001, 01:37 PM
#41
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Luke,
Have you gotten the MAF installed yet? What all did you get with it,,ie harness, chips, hoses, etc. The guy never called me back or emailed me.
Curious,,,,,
Have you gotten the MAF installed yet? What all did you get with it,,ie harness, chips, hoses, etc. The guy never called me back or emailed me.
Curious,,,,,
12-09-2001, 09:20 PM
#42
Nordschleife Master
wow i must have called the guy 12 times and he was there every one of em' .
I think its a one man operation. should be here tomorrow. Includes everything neccessary to attach to the stock rubber j boot.
Chips are not neccessary
Although i am going to need k27 chips if n/e has the ability to burn or sell them??????
I think its a one man operation. should be here tomorrow. Includes everything neccessary to attach to the stock rubber j boot.
Chips are not neccessary
Although i am going to need k27 chips if n/e has the ability to burn or sell them??????
12-10-2001, 08:13 AM
#44
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Rennlist Member
Luke,
What do you mean chips aren't needed? Do you have a fuel controller or Split Second timing controller? The amount of air entering the engine through the MAF is more than the factory air meter,,does this have an air temp probe?
Why do you say K27 chips and who directed you in that direction and why?
Does this guy (modern perf inc) have any data or dyno time with his product?
What do you mean chips aren't needed? Do you have a fuel controller or Split Second timing controller? The amount of air entering the engine through the MAF is more than the factory air meter,,does this have an air temp probe?
Why do you say K27 chips and who directed you in that direction and why?
Does this guy (modern perf inc) have any data or dyno time with his product?
12-10-2001, 03:08 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Honestly the guy at MP doesn't know that much about 944 turbos. This is a general replacement that will work in the place of n/e Bosche mech. air flow meter.
by "Chips are not neccessary" I meant that the unit has similar fuel controls to that of the lindsey unit. these controls will modify the fuel curve that your existing "chips" have set.
I need k27 chips because i am buying a garret turbo and the stock chips ( and autothority stage 2's) are setup to dump extra feul in the upper rpms in order to accomodate for the poor boost holding qualiteis of the factory kkk items.
k27 chips will work in conjuction (much more efficiently) with an upgraded garret turbo.
The authority MAF systems on the other hand
do "neccessatate" CHIPS. Because they have no adjustments of their own.
by "Chips are not neccessary" I meant that the unit has similar fuel controls to that of the lindsey unit. these controls will modify the fuel curve that your existing "chips" have set.
I need k27 chips because i am buying a garret turbo and the stock chips ( and autothority stage 2's) are setup to dump extra feul in the upper rpms in order to accomodate for the poor boost holding qualiteis of the factory kkk items.
k27 chips will work in conjuction (much more efficiently) with an upgraded garret turbo.
The authority MAF systems on the other hand
do "neccessatate" CHIPS. Because they have no adjustments of their own.