June Motor Trend - New Competition
05-03-2003 | 11:14 PM
#16
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
From: Boca Raton, FL
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by LP:
<strong>Thats pretty damn quick but IMHO they are just plain fugley</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I agree with LP. The performance stats impress, but design-wise, inside every WRX, Mitsu EVO, and 350Z is the soul of a Volvo station wagon trying to break out.
Unless you own stock in companies that produce hood scoops, rear wings, and various boy racer badges, it's hard to imagine warming up to most Japanese car designs.
<strong>Thats pretty damn quick but IMHO they are just plain fugley</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I agree with LP. The performance stats impress, but design-wise, inside every WRX, Mitsu EVO, and 350Z is the soul of a Volvo station wagon trying to break out.
Unless you own stock in companies that produce hood scoops, rear wings, and various boy racer badges, it's hard to imagine warming up to most Japanese car designs.
05-03-2003 | 11:38 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,454
Likes: 1
From: Minneapolis MN
<a href="http://abc.eznettools.net/cgi-bin/EZBulletin/bbtopic.cgi?SUID=X376545&&category=4&&topic=OH_YEAH!!!_BACK_ON_THE_DYNO. &&page=0" target="_blank">http://abc.eznettools.net/cgi-bin/EZBulletin/bbtopic.cgi?SUID=X376545&&category=4&&topic=OH_YEAH!!!_BACK_ON_THE_DYNO. &&page=0</a>
05-04-2003 | 07:15 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 77,321
Likes: 668
Definately, <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
05-07-2003 | 06:46 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,454
Likes: 1
From: Minneapolis MN
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by shortyboy:
<strong>340 is impressive,however if we put the same mods into our cars wouldn't the 951 exceed that mark?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">we would require larger injectors and a turbo swap 50hp before that.
This is on their oe turbo.
not only do they spin that motor faster to get that number, but their comression ratio is higher. Probably makes more offbost tq than us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<strong>340 is impressive,however if we put the same mods into our cars wouldn't the 951 exceed that mark?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">we would require larger injectors and a turbo swap 50hp before that.
This is on their oe turbo.
not only do they spin that motor faster to get that number, but their comression ratio is higher. Probably makes more offbost tq than us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
05-07-2003 | 09:05 PM
#23
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
From: Rosamond, CA -Willow Springs RCWY
Wow, my original thread produced some good comments. My only point is to know what you're up against before you give the thumbs up sign.
Bill, good point on the Boxster. I'd like to see another under $50K Porsche Turbo on the market for us. Been since our cars that we saw a price like that ;o)
Hmmm, Boxster S Turbo - sounds good!
300 rwhp stock....
Maybe we should start a petition?
Keep the painted side up.
Greg
Bill, good point on the Boxster. I'd like to see another under $50K Porsche Turbo on the market for us. Been since our cars that we saw a price like that ;o)
Hmmm, Boxster S Turbo - sounds good!
300 rwhp stock....
Maybe we should start a petition?
Keep the painted side up.
Greg
05-08-2003 | 04:47 PM
#25
Rennlist Lifetime Member
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,130
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From: Northern Virginia
Hmm...Evo Magazine claims the Evo lapped faster than a 996 or 575M...
I wonder if WRX Magazine (if there is such a thing) would make similar claims of their car...
Bias?
Naaaahhhh...
I wonder if WRX Magazine (if there is such a thing) would make similar claims of their car...
Bias?
Naaaahhhh...
05-09-2003 | 12:09 AM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,454
Likes: 1
From: Minneapolis MN
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by shortyboy:
<strong>sure those cars are fast,but can they hold their power after 100K?i think not!the beauty about our cars is,the power stays for a suprisingly long time.at least thats what ive learned. $.02</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">idk guy, wish i could agree but I can't. I know of so many dsm's over 100k that are kick'in REALLY strong.
<strong>sure those cars are fast,but can they hold their power after 100K?i think not!the beauty about our cars is,the power stays for a suprisingly long time.at least thats what ive learned. $.02</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">idk guy, wish i could agree but I can't. I know of so many dsm's over 100k that are kick'in REALLY strong.
05-09-2003 | 12:32 AM
#29
Pro
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
From: Boca Raton, FL
[RANT MODE ON]
Yeah, seriously, the accusation that japanese cars can't hang after 100k is ridiculous. I traded out of a japanese sport compact (240sx) for the 951, so understand my automotive heart lies in Germany, but please people! I hear jabs about longevity, about performance, etc...let's look back on the supra turbo, the rx-7 turbo, the mitsu starion (yeah, it WAS a blatant 944 styling ripoff with the fender flares etc) and more...cars that for half the original sticker price were pretty darn impressive. "How do they look" after 15 years? Shoot people, I still see a TON of old MK III supras, starions, and RX-7 turbos on the road and tweaked out. The other thing to consider, despite the apparent inherently snooty attitude of some of the Teutonic elitists here is that, on those other japanese turbo and/or performance cars still on the road (I suspect the total number of jp cars still on the road from say 86 to 92 that were of the same ilk as the p-car is probably higher) it probably cost the owners about 1/10th the amount it cost a 951 owner to keep those cars on the road. In addition, please people, stop talking about interior quality and fit/finish like the 944/951 is some engineering...vinyl and plastic is vinyl and plastic regardless of whether it's a porsche or a scooby or a mazda. Rattles? Please! I have rattles at 80k miles on my 951...my nissan with double the miles rattled less, broke down less, and handled better. Let's put down the pretentiousness and admit that dollar for dollar, the p-car is not better, it's just German and exotic, whereas the RX7, supra, 300zx, 240sx, and more are more mundane, and fall into a different category.
And for those who are going to start raising their hackles in response to this and talk about real world performance, and/or track performance, and try to put the japanese cars behind us because the 951 will 'kick the crap out of those rice burners on the track', I'll be happy to put you in touch with my buddy driving a virtually stock 240sx (suspension mods, stock 1 piston calipers front AND rear, essentially stock motor and ecu) who has outlapped 951s on quite a few road courses. Does that make me happy? No, but people, reality is reality and performance is performance. You can talk smack about the WRX STi and EVO all you want, but the bottom line is that they are sick cars, brand new, under warranty, which would probably cost comparable to what most of us pay in maintenance alone for our P-cars. Is the styling cruddy? Some think yes, some think no. Is the performance something you can debate? Absofrigginlutely not. How can people here even begin to gripe about scooby and mitsu performance when these things are pulling off 0-60, 1/4 mile, and lap times that are in the same range as exotics for literally 5X their sticker price?
I'm not putting down the p-car, I own one, love it, and probably wouldn't trade it out for many japanese cars, but I'm getting a little sick of the pretention of many of the owners here who act like their cars are superior because they happen to be built in Germany. Puhleeze! It's not like they outperform the japanese cars, they just happen to have a nice gold, red, and black badge on the hood.
[RANT MODE OFF]
Sorry for the verbal diarrhea, but I hate hearing hippocritical justification for something that is nothing more than a matter of taste and budget
Yeah, seriously, the accusation that japanese cars can't hang after 100k is ridiculous. I traded out of a japanese sport compact (240sx) for the 951, so understand my automotive heart lies in Germany, but please people! I hear jabs about longevity, about performance, etc...let's look back on the supra turbo, the rx-7 turbo, the mitsu starion (yeah, it WAS a blatant 944 styling ripoff with the fender flares etc) and more...cars that for half the original sticker price were pretty darn impressive. "How do they look" after 15 years? Shoot people, I still see a TON of old MK III supras, starions, and RX-7 turbos on the road and tweaked out. The other thing to consider, despite the apparent inherently snooty attitude of some of the Teutonic elitists here is that, on those other japanese turbo and/or performance cars still on the road (I suspect the total number of jp cars still on the road from say 86 to 92 that were of the same ilk as the p-car is probably higher) it probably cost the owners about 1/10th the amount it cost a 951 owner to keep those cars on the road. In addition, please people, stop talking about interior quality and fit/finish like the 944/951 is some engineering...vinyl and plastic is vinyl and plastic regardless of whether it's a porsche or a scooby or a mazda. Rattles? Please! I have rattles at 80k miles on my 951...my nissan with double the miles rattled less, broke down less, and handled better. Let's put down the pretentiousness and admit that dollar for dollar, the p-car is not better, it's just German and exotic, whereas the RX7, supra, 300zx, 240sx, and more are more mundane, and fall into a different category.
And for those who are going to start raising their hackles in response to this and talk about real world performance, and/or track performance, and try to put the japanese cars behind us because the 951 will 'kick the crap out of those rice burners on the track', I'll be happy to put you in touch with my buddy driving a virtually stock 240sx (suspension mods, stock 1 piston calipers front AND rear, essentially stock motor and ecu) who has outlapped 951s on quite a few road courses. Does that make me happy? No, but people, reality is reality and performance is performance. You can talk smack about the WRX STi and EVO all you want, but the bottom line is that they are sick cars, brand new, under warranty, which would probably cost comparable to what most of us pay in maintenance alone for our P-cars. Is the styling cruddy? Some think yes, some think no. Is the performance something you can debate? Absofrigginlutely not. How can people here even begin to gripe about scooby and mitsu performance when these things are pulling off 0-60, 1/4 mile, and lap times that are in the same range as exotics for literally 5X their sticker price?
I'm not putting down the p-car, I own one, love it, and probably wouldn't trade it out for many japanese cars, but I'm getting a little sick of the pretention of many of the owners here who act like their cars are superior because they happen to be built in Germany. Puhleeze! It's not like they outperform the japanese cars, they just happen to have a nice gold, red, and black badge on the hood.
[RANT MODE OFF]
Sorry for the verbal diarrhea, but I hate hearing hippocritical justification for something that is nothing more than a matter of taste and budget
05-09-2003 | 01:36 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,446
Likes: 0
From: Northern Kentucky
Get real, they build the car and market it to these kids who want to go fast stoplight to stoplight. That is all it is, a fast stoplight wagon. Add in easy financing and every boy racer wanna be can own one.
I mean would you really feel safe in a Lancer at over 100 MPH, or how about that Neon RT at over 100 MPH? I'd take my "slow" 944 in a crash any day of the week. At least I know it has enough suspension, brakes and structural integrity to go to its maximum top speed. Lets face it, all of these cars started life as economy cars, not purpose build performance cars.
Jason,
I take it you have never cut into a Japanese car and/or a Porsche or other German car? The structural integrity of the German car WAY surpasses that of the Japanese stuff. Go to any body shop and ask them. The thickness and quality of the metals used on a Porsche, specifically a 951 is of much higher quality than what is used on Japanese cars. That even goes for a 68 VW Bug as well.
One of my buddies worked as a part time rescue/fire guy. He said most Japanese cars open up like a tin can, while most European cars were difficult to pop the roof off with the jaws of life. I specifically remember him raving about how hard it was to get the roof off of a Volvo.
I've turned a lot of bolts in my time and all of the Japanese stuff I worked on could not hold a candle to the German built cars. I won't put Japanese hardware on my car, because I don't trust it. Their steel is still not as good as what comes out of the US or Europe.
That is not opinion, it is fact.
Your friend with the 240 SX is obviously a good driver, because equal drivers in a 951 vs. 240 SX, the outcome would be very different. I have beat 911 turbos with my 944 at the Autocross by 4 seconds, again, that is a driver advantage, not a car advantage.
Vinyl and plastic is not "just" vinyl and plastic and German cows grow better leather than Japanese cows. The last statement was a joke.
I mean would you really feel safe in a Lancer at over 100 MPH, or how about that Neon RT at over 100 MPH? I'd take my "slow" 944 in a crash any day of the week. At least I know it has enough suspension, brakes and structural integrity to go to its maximum top speed. Lets face it, all of these cars started life as economy cars, not purpose build performance cars.
Jason,
I take it you have never cut into a Japanese car and/or a Porsche or other German car? The structural integrity of the German car WAY surpasses that of the Japanese stuff. Go to any body shop and ask them. The thickness and quality of the metals used on a Porsche, specifically a 951 is of much higher quality than what is used on Japanese cars. That even goes for a 68 VW Bug as well.
One of my buddies worked as a part time rescue/fire guy. He said most Japanese cars open up like a tin can, while most European cars were difficult to pop the roof off with the jaws of life. I specifically remember him raving about how hard it was to get the roof off of a Volvo.
I've turned a lot of bolts in my time and all of the Japanese stuff I worked on could not hold a candle to the German built cars. I won't put Japanese hardware on my car, because I don't trust it. Their steel is still not as good as what comes out of the US or Europe.
That is not opinion, it is fact.
Your friend with the 240 SX is obviously a good driver, because equal drivers in a 951 vs. 240 SX, the outcome would be very different. I have beat 911 turbos with my 944 at the Autocross by 4 seconds, again, that is a driver advantage, not a car advantage.
Vinyl and plastic is not "just" vinyl and plastic and German cows grow better leather than Japanese cows. The last statement was a joke.