cup car Bilstein vs M030 koni (suspension)
06-13-2003, 02:45 PM
#1
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cup car Bilstein vs M030 koni (suspension)
any one can make a coment on these?
how these both suspension compare?
Many say the Bilstein is superior to the koni? is this true?
why the factory use koni for the street and Bilstein for the race. (never show Porsche factory car on koni race shocks)
has anyone tried them both and can explain the pro and contra on both systems.
I am runing the m030 Koni with Turbo cup spring and was wondering if I should change to the cup suspension.
I live in germany so teh roads are quite good;-) for every day. I also visit some tracks so this is for street and track driving
Konstantin
how these both suspension compare?
Many say the Bilstein is superior to the koni? is this true?
why the factory use koni for the street and Bilstein for the race. (never show Porsche factory car on koni race shocks)
has anyone tried them both and can explain the pro and contra on both systems.
I am runing the m030 Koni with Turbo cup spring and was wondering if I should change to the cup suspension.
I live in germany so teh roads are quite good;-) for every day. I also visit some tracks so this is for street and track driving
Konstantin
06-13-2003, 03:24 PM
#2
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The Koni's are a hell of a lot softer!
I talked to someone with the Koni Cup car suspension at Hershey...says they're fine on the street. This setup is about half way between the m030 Koni suspension and Bilstein Turbo Cup.
I talked to Graham Gillies about the Bilstein suspension and he said the shocks were outrageously stiff. The car doesn't even move if you push down on the fender, way too stiff for the street.
If you have a set you could try them and tell us what you think.
I talked to someone with the Koni Cup car suspension at Hershey...says they're fine on the street. This setup is about half way between the m030 Koni suspension and Bilstein Turbo Cup.
I talked to Graham Gillies about the Bilstein suspension and he said the shocks were outrageously stiff. The car doesn't even move if you push down on the fender, way too stiff for the street.
If you have a set you could try them and tell us what you think.
06-13-2003, 03:45 PM
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well with my m030 front and the cup spring you can NOT move the front of the car it doesn't matter what you do and you can barelly move the rear.
i have to go 1/4 before full soft on teh street otherwise they are almost undrivable.
Konstantin
i have to go 1/4 before full soft on teh street otherwise they are almost undrivable.
Konstantin
06-13-2003, 04:13 PM
#4
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Konstantin:
<strong>well with my m030 front and the cup spring you can NOT move the front of the car it doesn't matter what you do and you can barelly move the rear.
i have to go 1/4 before full soft on teh street otherwise they are almost undrivable.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hahah, that's pretty stiff!
Just imagine if you had the Bilsteins on the car and couldn't adjust them like you can the Konis. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Have you looked into the Firehawk Bilsteins? Places like Powerhaus and EBS Racing sell these setups [also available at eshocks.com] and you can get different valving. There are some guys with these shocks who really like them.
<strong>well with my m030 front and the cup spring you can NOT move the front of the car it doesn't matter what you do and you can barelly move the rear.
i have to go 1/4 before full soft on teh street otherwise they are almost undrivable.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hahah, that's pretty stiff!
Just imagine if you had the Bilsteins on the car and couldn't adjust them like you can the Konis. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Have you looked into the Firehawk Bilsteins? Places like Powerhaus and EBS Racing sell these setups [also available at eshocks.com] and you can get different valving. There are some guys with these shocks who really like them.
06-13-2003, 05:15 PM
#5
Hallo Konstantin,
I totally agree with PorscheG96, the Bilstein Cup shocks are way too stiff for road use or even driving on a perfectly smooth stretch of Autobahn.
Even set on the stiffest setting, the M030 Koni are much softer than the Bilstein Cup.
Actually the Bilsteins are so stiff that a friend of mine who owns a Cup barely ever takes it on the road anymore - it nearly requires retightening all the screws after each drive.
Another friend broke the injector ramp also because of the very heavy vibrations induced by the stiffness of the suspension.
Try to drive a (good) Cup and you will see for yourself.
I totally agree with PorscheG96, the Bilstein Cup shocks are way too stiff for road use or even driving on a perfectly smooth stretch of Autobahn.
Even set on the stiffest setting, the M030 Koni are much softer than the Bilstein Cup.
Actually the Bilsteins are so stiff that a friend of mine who owns a Cup barely ever takes it on the road anymore - it nearly requires retightening all the screws after each drive.
Another friend broke the injector ramp also because of the very heavy vibrations induced by the stiffness of the suspension.
Try to drive a (good) Cup and you will see for yourself.
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06-13-2003, 05:51 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by MaDAnT26x:
<strong>What do you guys think the best track/street suspension is then? Something stiff, but not unbearable like the Bilstein Cups are.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think the 968 m030 is the best track/street setup. You can also get stiffer springs for both front and rear dampers if you want a bit more grab.
<strong>What do you guys think the best track/street suspension is then? Something stiff, but not unbearable like the Bilstein Cups are.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I think the 968 m030 is the best track/street setup. You can also get stiffer springs for both front and rear dampers if you want a bit more grab.
06-13-2003, 07:24 PM
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I have the Bilsteins (revalved one's at that)....and as everyone has already stated....they are stiff, REALLY stiff. Handle great and really control body roll but enough to rattle your teeth out in one day. Want to know what it feels like to drive over a cigarette butt...come on over for a ride. PorscheG96 if you want to compare the ride....drop me a line.
06-14-2003, 03:44 AM
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I don't know. Maybe my konis are revalved. I got them used from Vision racing which are a real race shop as you know.
My konis are so stiff that you can NOT put the full stiff. you feel every 20 cm on the road even at 75% stiff.
I wanted a suspension that is stiff but not while I drive slowlly. when I drive fast my konis are ok but not when I am driving slowly in the city.
This is worst after I put the M030 sway bars and the 17" S02.
It was softer with the stock sway bars and the 18" yoko 008P
Maybe it is the tire. I use only 2.5 bar in teh tires.
I will put the 18" tires back and see if it is the tires the new sway bars or something else.
BTW I plan to install teh new camber plates <a href="http://www.968Turbo.de/domlager.html" target="_blank">http://www.968Turbo.de/domlager.html</a> which will make the whole suspension even stiffer ;-)
Konstantin
PS I will ask for the turbo cup springs but I am not sure if I can find them
My konis are so stiff that you can NOT put the full stiff. you feel every 20 cm on the road even at 75% stiff.
I wanted a suspension that is stiff but not while I drive slowlly. when I drive fast my konis are ok but not when I am driving slowly in the city.
This is worst after I put the M030 sway bars and the 17" S02.
It was softer with the stock sway bars and the 18" yoko 008P
Maybe it is the tire. I use only 2.5 bar in teh tires.
I will put the 18" tires back and see if it is the tires the new sway bars or something else.
BTW I plan to install teh new camber plates <a href="http://www.968Turbo.de/domlager.html" target="_blank">http://www.968Turbo.de/domlager.html</a> which will make the whole suspension even stiffer ;-)
Konstantin
PS I will ask for the turbo cup springs but I am not sure if I can find them
06-17-2003, 12:13 AM
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What do you guys think the best track/street suspension is then? Something stiff, but not unbearable like the Bilstein Cups are.
I think the 968 m030 is the best track/street setup. You can also get stiffer springs for both front and rear dampers if you want a bit more grab.
The only way to compare different factory setups is by looking at the front spring rates. The rear suspensions used different combinations of torsion bar diameters, helper springs and anti roll bars, which make direct comparisons of the rear setups difficult.
The stock 944 Turbo ('86) has springs rated at around 22 N/mm, or 125 lb/in. This results in a fairly soft ride, with lots of roll given the stock anti roll bar (22.5 mm dia).
The 968 M030 Club Sport setup has springs that are around 28 N/mm, or 160 lb/in. This is 27% stiffer than stock. Also, the front anti roll bar diameter is up to 30 mm, which gives 216% more front roll stiffness. So the 968 will corner much flatter than the 944 Turbo, although on the street the ride might not suffer too much given the relatively low spring rate.
(Originally, when I started my project, I targeted the 968 Club Sport as the definitive 944 Turbo for the street. Autocar magazine has repeatedly said that this is the best handling car money can buy.)
The 968 Turbo S has front springs of 35 N/mm, or 200 lb/in, but the same front anti roll bar as the 968 CS. So this car has slightly more front roll stiffness than the CS.
Because I don't drive my car much on the street, and because I have the Porsche Motorsports setup data sheet for the 968 Turbo S and Turbo RS, I'll probably duplicate this suspension, since Autocar also said that the Turbo S feels as good on the track as the 968 CS feels on the street.
The 944 Turbo Cup cars had variable rate springs said to vary between 160 and 410 lb/in (28 and 72 N/mm). Given the weight of the car one can guesstimate that these springs at static ride height are operating at around 300 lb/in (52 N/mm), although under compression they will get to 350 or more depending upon g loading. The anti roll bars were probably the same M030 units, so these cars had even higher front roll stiffnesses. People have already said that these cars are not really streetable; much, but not all, of this is due to the very stiff Bilstein dampers.
Once past a damping ratio of around 0.5, dampers no longer function as traditional "shock absorbers". Instead, they cause the suspension to act solid during transitions, like a kart, which causes the weight to transfer around the car VERY fast. This is not good for people who want a car that is "forgiving", for a super stiff suspension will not forgive your breathing out of the throttle in a turn -- the weight will transfer off the rear axle NOW, and you'll spin before you know it's happening. A softer suspension will give you time to feel the rear end breaking loose, allowing you to countersteer or get back on the gas.
I think the 968 m030 is the best track/street setup. You can also get stiffer springs for both front and rear dampers if you want a bit more grab.
The only way to compare different factory setups is by looking at the front spring rates. The rear suspensions used different combinations of torsion bar diameters, helper springs and anti roll bars, which make direct comparisons of the rear setups difficult.
The stock 944 Turbo ('86) has springs rated at around 22 N/mm, or 125 lb/in. This results in a fairly soft ride, with lots of roll given the stock anti roll bar (22.5 mm dia).
The 968 M030 Club Sport setup has springs that are around 28 N/mm, or 160 lb/in. This is 27% stiffer than stock. Also, the front anti roll bar diameter is up to 30 mm, which gives 216% more front roll stiffness. So the 968 will corner much flatter than the 944 Turbo, although on the street the ride might not suffer too much given the relatively low spring rate.
(Originally, when I started my project, I targeted the 968 Club Sport as the definitive 944 Turbo for the street. Autocar magazine has repeatedly said that this is the best handling car money can buy.)
The 968 Turbo S has front springs of 35 N/mm, or 200 lb/in, but the same front anti roll bar as the 968 CS. So this car has slightly more front roll stiffness than the CS.
Because I don't drive my car much on the street, and because I have the Porsche Motorsports setup data sheet for the 968 Turbo S and Turbo RS, I'll probably duplicate this suspension, since Autocar also said that the Turbo S feels as good on the track as the 968 CS feels on the street.
The 944 Turbo Cup cars had variable rate springs said to vary between 160 and 410 lb/in (28 and 72 N/mm). Given the weight of the car one can guesstimate that these springs at static ride height are operating at around 300 lb/in (52 N/mm), although under compression they will get to 350 or more depending upon g loading. The anti roll bars were probably the same M030 units, so these cars had even higher front roll stiffnesses. People have already said that these cars are not really streetable; much, but not all, of this is due to the very stiff Bilstein dampers.
Once past a damping ratio of around 0.5, dampers no longer function as traditional "shock absorbers". Instead, they cause the suspension to act solid during transitions, like a kart, which causes the weight to transfer around the car VERY fast. This is not good for people who want a car that is "forgiving", for a super stiff suspension will not forgive your breathing out of the throttle in a turn -- the weight will transfer off the rear axle NOW, and you'll spin before you know it's happening. A softer suspension will give you time to feel the rear end breaking loose, allowing you to countersteer or get back on the gas.
06-17-2003, 04:00 AM
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My 951S also has MO30 and adjustable yellow konis. It is lowered and rides on 17inch wheels with SO2's. I have my Konis front's set to full hard and rears to 1/2 a turn. I had set the rears to 1 turn once - well the car swapped ends on the straights - not for me - preffer a bit of understear! The car is now perfect. I can not move the fender much as I lean on it. It has a race feel and is perfectly drivable - for the road I would not want it any firmer. Tip - after I had 70K on the clock I had my konis refurbished (by Koni) and the result was night and day!
06-17-2003, 07:55 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by H Dog:
<strong>The 968 Turbo S has front springs of 35 N/mm, or 200 lb/in, but the same front anti roll bar as the 968 CS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">What are the shock absorbers on the 968TS ? 968 M030 koni yellows with stiffer valving ?
<strong>The 968 Turbo S has front springs of 35 N/mm, or 200 lb/in, but the same front anti roll bar as the 968 CS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">What are the shock absorbers on the 968TS ? 968 M030 koni yellows with stiffer valving ?
06-21-2003, 05:51 PM
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<What are the shock absorbers on the 968TS ? 968 M030 koni yellows with stiffer valving?>
they are bilsteins totaly different than the konis
Konstantin
they are bilsteins totaly different than the konis
Konstantin
06-21-2003, 05:53 PM
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968 CS rears:
any one knows how to adjust them and how stifier are they commparing to the 951 m030 yelllow konis without the springs?
where and for how much to rebuild and revalve them to double adj?
Konstantin
any one knows how to adjust them and how stifier are they commparing to the 951 m030 yelllow konis without the springs?
where and for how much to rebuild and revalve them to double adj?
Konstantin