Lindsey super series turbo w/ ball bearing CHRA
12-31-2010, 04:51 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Lindsey super series turbo w/ ball bearing CHRA
Is anyone here running a Lindsey super series turbo with the ball bearing CHRA? A quick search reveals a ton of info on people’s impressions on the super series in general but no one seems to be running the ball bearing center housing. I’m looking at potentially running a super 61 or 65 on a stock bottom end 2.5L and see dyno charts that show they make decent power but potentially are a little laggy. This post shows 1 bar of boost for a super 65 at around 3500rpm which I think is reasonable:
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...ml#post8108605
No discussion on compressor trim though. Any one have any idea what the BB center cartridge would do to this?
What’s the reason for no one running the BB option? I know people will quote the more expensive rebuild cost of BB as being a reason or the Lindsey $450 premium for the BB option but I would expect most people buying a new turbo would not care so much about this.
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...ml#post8108605
No discussion on compressor trim though. Any one have any idea what the BB center cartridge would do to this?
What’s the reason for no one running the BB option? I know people will quote the more expensive rebuild cost of BB as being a reason or the Lindsey $450 premium for the BB option but I would expect most people buying a new turbo would not care so much about this.
12-31-2010, 05:14 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
I'm running a Super 75 and have loved it for the past 2 years! It's not the BB style, though. Actually, I'm thinking of downsizing b/c for racing purposes I need to be no more than 257 rwhp...and the 75 is too much!
Jason
Jason
12-31-2010, 08:37 PM
#3
Racer
Is anyone here running a Lindsey super series turbo with the ball bearing CHRA? A quick search reveals a ton of info on people’s impressions on the super series in general but no one seems to be running the ball bearing center housing. I’m looking at potentially running a super 61 or 65 on a stock bottom end 2.5L and see dyno charts that show they make decent power but potentially are a little laggy. This post shows 1 bar of boost for a super 65 at around 3500rpm which I think is reasonable:
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...ml#post8108605
No discussion on compressor trim though. Any one have any idea what the BB center cartridge would do to this?
What’s the reason for no one running the BB option? I know people will quote the more expensive rebuild cost of BB as being a reason or the Lindsey $450 premium for the BB option but I would expect most people buying a new turbo would not care so much about this.
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...ml#post8108605
No discussion on compressor trim though. Any one have any idea what the BB center cartridge would do to this?
What’s the reason for no one running the BB option? I know people will quote the more expensive rebuild cost of BB as being a reason or the Lindsey $450 premium for the BB option but I would expect most people buying a new turbo would not care so much about this.
It is a P-trim, non- ball bearing, 8cm2 hotside.
Engine is all standard internally but all items which are bolt on are modified or swapped.
There is a fantastic kick in that turbo, but if I had the choice I would definitely go for TBB.
As you can read in the thread I would also probably go for a smaller turbo, but my target is only in the 360rwhp area.
My reason for not going DBB was that I bought a used kit (turbo, maf, mafterburner+++) which happened to be one hour away here in Norway.
All the people who has either tried or ridden the car think it is a seriously fast car. Even at 1.12bar. It probably feels faster than it actually is, due to the turbo lag. But thats part of the fun as long as you don't start to chase GT3s on the track....
The previous owner dyno'ed this kit to 390rwhp at 1.44bar. I feel more comfortably boosting 1.3bar so that will be my next map.
I have also received a lot of help from Lindsey racing, during testing and mapping which has been a really great help.
What is your Hp target, or more precisely: what are you going to use the car for?
12-31-2010, 09:09 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
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Im running the Super 61 BB and I love it, it is a VERY streetable turbocharger and large enough to put down some big numbers! Im planning on installing a Super 65 on my 1986 951 this coming spring.
12-31-2010, 09:35 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I am happy to give up HP for a wide torque curve if necessary. 360rwhp would be nice but I don't know if that is really achievable with a broad torque curve. Needs to be safe sustainable boost levels (18psi) on 94 octane. I'm also uncertain of what the quoted '360rwhp' really is since dyno's in australia (which is what im used to) seem to read alot lower than the dyno's in the states (where I am now). American dynos seem greatly 'inflated' in their HP readings.
Car is not a daily driver. Plan is for a 'relatively' cheap track car which is road driveable to the track. Cheap as in I won't cry like I would if I had an 'incident' in a more expensive car. 1 bar of boost by 3500rpm would be the absolute worst response I would be happy with. Obviously the earlier the better.
The other thing is the dual BB CHRA is not a bolt on like the standard thrust bearing turbo's. I don't know if anyone makes a kit to adapt or if I need flexible oil/water lines made up myself if I go this route. I have yet to contact Lindsey about adapting lines but assume they leave it up to the purchaser since there is no oil/water line kit on their website. Just want to know that the benefits of a BB setup is worth the hassle of fitting it. Work is all done at home so adapting oil/water lines is fine. Re-welding exhaust components/flanges, bending new downpipes etc is not.
I am surprised that there are so many posts of people being 'talked out' of ball bearing turbos by workshops. My prior experience with them is quite different. I went from a standard thrust bearing turbo on a nissan SR20 to a garret/HKS ball bearing turbo. I remember stopping the motor on that one for the first time after installing it and being amazed that I could hear the turbo continue to spin for more than 30sec. The low down response from that turbo swap was phenomenal although granted it is difficult to make comparisons between turbos with completely different turbine and compressor housings.
It looks like you are tuning with the Mafterburner. Who's base map/chip are you running? Are you tuning the piggyback yourself on the road or is there a dyno/shop involved? I'm still unsure about the mafterburner. Not being able to alter timing is a huge limitation but i have not found any other affordable way of doing otherwise in a 944 short of full engine management.
Car is not a daily driver. Plan is for a 'relatively' cheap track car which is road driveable to the track. Cheap as in I won't cry like I would if I had an 'incident' in a more expensive car. 1 bar of boost by 3500rpm would be the absolute worst response I would be happy with. Obviously the earlier the better.
The other thing is the dual BB CHRA is not a bolt on like the standard thrust bearing turbo's. I don't know if anyone makes a kit to adapt or if I need flexible oil/water lines made up myself if I go this route. I have yet to contact Lindsey about adapting lines but assume they leave it up to the purchaser since there is no oil/water line kit on their website. Just want to know that the benefits of a BB setup is worth the hassle of fitting it. Work is all done at home so adapting oil/water lines is fine. Re-welding exhaust components/flanges, bending new downpipes etc is not.
I am surprised that there are so many posts of people being 'talked out' of ball bearing turbos by workshops. My prior experience with them is quite different. I went from a standard thrust bearing turbo on a nissan SR20 to a garret/HKS ball bearing turbo. I remember stopping the motor on that one for the first time after installing it and being amazed that I could hear the turbo continue to spin for more than 30sec. The low down response from that turbo swap was phenomenal although granted it is difficult to make comparisons between turbos with completely different turbine and compressor housings.
It looks like you are tuning with the Mafterburner. Who's base map/chip are you running? Are you tuning the piggyback yourself on the road or is there a dyno/shop involved? I'm still unsure about the mafterburner. Not being able to alter timing is a huge limitation but i have not found any other affordable way of doing otherwise in a 944 short of full engine management.
12-31-2010, 10:19 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
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The difference in spool up between ball and journalbearing is minimal, for example the various KO3/04/16 etc spool almost instantly, proper wheel/comp/hotside is far more influential.
If you go ballbearing like a GT do it right or don't do it all. You can get the Tial adapter and oillines with some minor crossover/downpipe fabricating or get a Precision which bolts right up plus oilreturn and the above mentioned exhaust work.
What I am trying to say is don't waste your time on a Hybrid with a inferior hotside and old school turbo tech.
Btw thecnew billet wheels make a night and day difference in spool and top end.
If you go ballbearing like a GT do it right or don't do it all. You can get the Tial adapter and oillines with some minor crossover/downpipe fabricating or get a Precision which bolts right up plus oilreturn and the above mentioned exhaust work.
What I am trying to say is don't waste your time on a Hybrid with a inferior hotside and old school turbo tech.
Btw thecnew billet wheels make a night and day difference in spool and top end.
01-02-2011, 06:34 PM
#7
Racer
I am happy to give up HP for a wide torque curve if necessary. 360rwhp would be nice but I don't know if that is really achievable with a broad torque curve. Needs to be safe sustainable boost levels (18psi) on 94 octane. I'm also uncertain of what the quoted '360rwhp' really is since dyno's in australia (which is what im used to) seem to read alot lower than the dyno's in the states (where I am now). American dynos seem greatly 'inflated' in their HP readings.
Car is not a daily driver. Plan is for a 'relatively' cheap track car which is road driveable to the track. Cheap as in I won't cry like I would if I had an 'incident' in a more expensive car. 1 bar of boost by 3500rpm would be the absolute worst response I would be happy with. Obviously the earlier the better.
The other thing is the dual BB CHRA is not a bolt on like the standard thrust bearing turbo's. I don't know if anyone makes a kit to adapt or if I need flexible oil/water lines made up myself if I go this route. I have yet to contact Lindsey about adapting lines but assume they leave it up to the purchaser since there is no oil/water line kit on their website. Just want to know that the benefits of a BB setup is worth the hassle of fitting it. Work is all done at home so adapting oil/water lines is fine. Re-welding exhaust components/flanges, bending new downpipes etc is not.
I am surprised that there are so many posts of people being 'talked out' of ball bearing turbos by workshops. My prior experience with them is quite different. I went from a standard thrust bearing turbo on a nissan SR20 to a garret/HKS ball bearing turbo. I remember stopping the motor on that one for the first time after installing it and being amazed that I could hear the turbo continue to spin for more than 30sec. The low down response from that turbo swap was phenomenal although granted it is difficult to make comparisons between turbos with completely different turbine and compressor housings.
It looks like you are tuning with the Mafterburner. Who's base map/chip are you running? Are you tuning the piggyback yourself on the road or is there a dyno/shop involved? I'm still unsure about the mafterburner. Not being able to alter timing is a huge limitation but i have not found any other affordable way of doing otherwise in a 944 short of full engine management.
Car is not a daily driver. Plan is for a 'relatively' cheap track car which is road driveable to the track. Cheap as in I won't cry like I would if I had an 'incident' in a more expensive car. 1 bar of boost by 3500rpm would be the absolute worst response I would be happy with. Obviously the earlier the better.
The other thing is the dual BB CHRA is not a bolt on like the standard thrust bearing turbo's. I don't know if anyone makes a kit to adapt or if I need flexible oil/water lines made up myself if I go this route. I have yet to contact Lindsey about adapting lines but assume they leave it up to the purchaser since there is no oil/water line kit on their website. Just want to know that the benefits of a BB setup is worth the hassle of fitting it. Work is all done at home so adapting oil/water lines is fine. Re-welding exhaust components/flanges, bending new downpipes etc is not.
I am surprised that there are so many posts of people being 'talked out' of ball bearing turbos by workshops. My prior experience with them is quite different. I went from a standard thrust bearing turbo on a nissan SR20 to a garret/HKS ball bearing turbo. I remember stopping the motor on that one for the first time after installing it and being amazed that I could hear the turbo continue to spin for more than 30sec. The low down response from that turbo swap was phenomenal although granted it is difficult to make comparisons between turbos with completely different turbine and compressor housings.
It looks like you are tuning with the Mafterburner. Who's base map/chip are you running? Are you tuning the piggyback yourself on the road or is there a dyno/shop involved? I'm still unsure about the mafterburner. Not being able to alter timing is a huge limitation but i have not found any other affordable way of doing otherwise in a 944 short of full engine management.
As for the mafterburner:
The car has Custom chips from LR to suit the setup. The map is then made by me, with some help from LR. It is street tuned and there is probably much more to gain from visiting a dyno.
I actually think the Mafterburner is a great little tool. Easy to use an intuitive. It has however open my eyes to modern EMS tunning, and I am therefore looking into some EMS at the moment. Not because the mafterburner is not doing its job, but more that I want to learn. I am still undecided since the car is running very well at the moment.( as soon as I put the turbo back in
)
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01-03-2011, 07:24 PM
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Carl
01-04-2011, 10:38 AM
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Three Wheelin'
01-04-2011, 12:20 PM
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01-13-2011, 05:50 PM
#14
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I would like to preface this by saying I have had two identical Super 75s. Both were P-trim in a .58 a/r TO4e housing. Both on a the same 2.8L engine, in the same car. The second one has the dual ball bearing center.
To me the biggest difference was at the sub 4000rpm levels. With out the DBB the car was useless. It could not build any boost fast enough to be useful.
With the DBB it was very easy to get boost in the 2500-4000 rpm level. The boost was limited to the 5-10psi level. In the 3000rpm range it was quick and easy to get ~8psi. This made the car drivable as you always had enough torque on demand to move the car with out shifting.
I don't really feel it builds boost that much earlier in the rpm range than a journal bearing turbo. It does however build that level of boost much quicker, which equates to faster response and better drive-ability.
To me the biggest difference was at the sub 4000rpm levels. With out the DBB the car was useless. It could not build any boost fast enough to be useful.
With the DBB it was very easy to get boost in the 2500-4000 rpm level. The boost was limited to the 5-10psi level. In the 3000rpm range it was quick and easy to get ~8psi. This made the car drivable as you always had enough torque on demand to move the car with out shifting.
I don't really feel it builds boost that much earlier in the rpm range than a journal bearing turbo. It does however build that level of boost much quicker, which equates to faster response and better drive-ability.
