LS1Porch

The TPC crossmember is actually a few pounds lighter than the aluminum piece it replaces. I personally wouldn't run a stock oil pan, but at least now people have that option. I have no idea what it costs. I believe it prevents the suspension geometry issue that the RH kit (with spacers) causes as well.

Are you saying you think it's a bad idea, then?
It's required for most of the mile-type events, which i personally would have liked to give a try. I've also seen enough internet carnage that i wouldn't hesitate to have chosen that option if it had been available to me at the time. My legs and my car are more important to me than saving an hour or two when doing a clutch job.
I didn't even bother taking the bottom half of the bellhousing off when i put my motor in this second time. It simply isn't necessary.

That's because the windage tray is a factory part on the LS motors. The RH pan doesn't have a windage tray either, it would be redundant.

TonyG

I undo the two bolts holding the trans cross bar and the 4 bolts holding the torque tube adapter to the bell housing. Then just slide the trans back a couple of inches and support with a transmission jack.



TonyG

TonyG

A couple of pounds lighter? I didn't think the stock cross member even weighed 5 lbs (although I've never weighed it... every time I pick it up it feels like it weighs nothing...)

That would be fine on the street but a disaster waiting to happen on a race track.

That's what I've read. But with a fiberglass hood I have, I don't need the spacers, however we ran them for years because we just installed the kit as it was supplied. It never made a difference to me on the race track one way or the other.

Safety is never a bad idea. And I can see the requirement to use a scatter shield on a drag strip because all you do is drop the clutch and shock the hell out of the driveline practically with the intent to break parts.

That's just not the case in road racing (or street use).

And the 2 piece design (if you cut down the rear tire well like I did) makes servicing the clutch way easier. This has paid big dividends to me on two occasions:

1. When we first installed the kit and didn't balance the aluminum flywheel.

2. After the idot that put my newly balanced flywheel back in and after a couple of track events I noticed that I has having a hard time disengaging the clutch. After a new clutch master cylinder and a lot of swearing, I pulled the bell housing apart and could see that the bolts holding the pressure plate to the flywheel had start to back out a tiny bit... Yeah.

I was able to just rotate the flywheel around, locktight and torque the bolts and was done in about 30 minutes.

Had I had a 1 piece bell housing I probably would have been so pissed I would have sold off the car.

I don't remember what my old LS1 stock oil pan looked like (because we did the conversion in 2005) but the new LS6 did have a windage tray. But it's not the same deal as what the RH pan comes with and isn't designed for road racing conditions. I should have been more clear.

The RH pan has a boxed 4 trap door sump (standard road race race fare), but it also has a special windage tray that bolts down to the top of the box in the sump with just enough of a slot in it to get the oil pickup through. This prevents any oil from exiting the box over and above what the sides of the box alone can provide. So the oil is literally trapped in the sump in the box around the oil pickup with no place to go.

This sump and tray design is probably what allowed that junk yard LS1 to live as long as it did.


TonyG

LS1Porch

IIRC it weighs something like 17lbs and the steel crossmember weighs 14 or 15. There's a thread on it on 944hybrids, but i'll let you dig it up if you really want to. That might be without welding, but absolute worst case we're talking a pound or two here.

Drag racing is definitely where the majority of the incidents i've seen have happened, but a clutch that lets go at 7000rpms doesn't care what kind of racing it's being used in--accidents happen! I'm just saying that for no extra money i would have been willing to put up with a little extra work for a lot of extra security.


My LS1 has a windage tray (i just checked the pics).
I'm not sure which oil pans you were looking at, but i think all of theirs have the same boxed 4 door. Make sure you look at the LS pans and not the SBC pans. There are also Moroso and other brand pans, i just thought these looked pretty good for the price:

TonyG

Agreed. But my LSx engine doesn't really see anything over 6500rpms which is just not that high an rpm. Road racing relatively speaking, babies the clutch... which is why the scatter shields are not required anywhere. And I don't think I've ever heard of a clutch coming apart on a road circuit.

Anyway... my 2 piece bell housing has saved me a ton of time. That's the only way I'll go on one of these cars.



The LS6 have didn't have a windage tray bolted to the engine. It was part of the oil pan. I don't remember what the LS1 came with stock. I was using the RH pan/pickup on it so I can't compare.

Yes, I saw that actual oil pan (in the picture). And yes the box is similar but shallower than the RH pan box.

But it doesn't have the windage tray that bolts to the top of the box like the RH pan does. Without that, the oil can easily slosh outside of the box .

The RH pan has the entire sump covered with only a hole in it for the oil pickup. And the RH has a custom built oil pickup tube that is modifed to work on their pan.


TonyG

968ls1

Here is a brief explanation to the original question and some things I have learned over the years.
RH pans are made by an outside vendor it used to be Champ Jennings but they parted ways after quality problems. Not sure who they use now but they are a quality piece though more expensive to other equivalent pans. Trap door pans with a windage tray are a must for heavy track use if you want the motor to live.
Clutches in road race situations do blow up; I wish I still had the pictures of my brothers car when it launched the clutch at the Glen and destroyed a C5 bell housing thankfully he was not injured. We later ran a Kevlar shield over the C5 bell housing and went an unsprung hub on the disc. BTW SPEC is the only manufacture of clutches for these conversion that actually use a Porsche spline on the disc hub. Clutch Masters (the RH vendor) uses a Chrysler hub. I do not like the 1 piece BH as they offer no access to inspecting the clutch and making servicing more time consuming TPC and RH both make good stuff but RH will not sell individual parts outside of their basic kit and their prices are high. I cringe when I see items like Energy Suspension motor mounts for double what I could pay from Summit and their radiator for 1K when a stock 951 radiator and fans will do the job for 95% of applications. TPC will sell you any part you want and their pricing is better. 14 years ago I did the development for RH so it is good to hear guys like Tony are happy but RH has not done anything new to improve their offering and pricing is still the highest. Thought I am not a fan of the TPC cross member Eric is refining many of the existing conversion parts and adding new items to the mix. I also like the fact that TPC actually makes most of their products in house and they make some really nice fiberglass parts as well. RH was the only game in town when Tony bought his kit but today their are more affordable quality choices. When I built my first 968 I had to design and build these parts and figure out what worked, Today it is a lot easier so be glad these vendors exist. If I was going to build a car today and needed to source parts here is where I would go:
C5 Bell housing-Chevy dealer
C5 Salve/TO bearing Chevy dealer
Adapter plate and pilot bearing-TPC
Engine mounts and stands- TPC
Clutch/Flywheel-SPEC dealer or direct.
Wiring Harness-modify stock unit and run it through the factory Porsche wiring harness boot so it seals properly. I have used Jim's Performance to do my harnesses.
Headers-RH makes a good set but TPC will soon offer an alternative-I build my own.
Temp gauge sensor-Modify Porsche unit to fit GM head.
VSS kit if necessary-TPC
Misc small parts-TPC, Summit, Jeg's, Speedway, Pegasus etc... you just have to know what you need.
Just my 2 cents hope it helps!
Tom

LS1Porch

Here's my LS1:


Oh, you're talking about the lip on the pan. There's another one on that site that has the same setup as the RH pan with a huge lip. For that matter, there are literally a dozen other pans for the LS--Canton, Moroso, etc. The RH pan is really nothing amazing. Did you know the stock LS pan is considered structural? If it were me, i'd probably just use a GTO pan and add one of these: http://www.improvedracing.com/

And anyway, let's compare:
-$300 oil pan
-$200 for 2-piece c5 bellhousing (or $35 for a 1-piece)
-$375 bellhousing adapter (include pilot bearing and adapter)
-$200 motor mount uprights and adapter plates
-----------------
$1075 + clutch

Versus....$2100 for RH (with a few extra worthless parts).

TonyG

Ok... I was incorrect. I don't know what I was thinking. I went out and looked at the LS1 and pictures of my LS6.

They both have windage trays. The LS1 is like yours. The LS6 is similar, but covers the entire crank up to the next set of main bearing caps..

You'd think I was smoking crack...

The RH pan does though have the entire top of the sump covered with what is essentially another sort of windage tray but really does more by closing the sump box off around the oil pickup so that the oil pickup cannot (theoretically) become uncovered. This is similar to what I was on the URL you posted at improvedracing on a couple of their oil pans.

And yeah I had read that the oil pan was supposed to be a structural component to the engine. Apparently... that was more theory than reality.

I'll take some pictures of the RH pan I took out when I get a chance.

Anyway, the point I was initially trying to make is that the RH works great without any problems in my experience in racing the hell out of it for 5+ years.

And you can put together your own kit, if you have the time, the suppliers come through, and don't mind trial and error.

For me... I don't have the time to mess around with something like this. I just want to buy a tried and true kit, and get the car done so I can get out there and do what I really like doing.... rather than working on the car.


TonyG

LS1Porch

Fair enough. My RH parts have held up fine. I just personally have enjoyed dealing with Eric (TPC) and i don't think it's fair to say that his parts are any worse than anything RH has put out.

arthropraxis

I just test fitted the TPC setback plates and uprights about 5 min ago. They fit great and clear the AC compressor and modified Moroso oil pan with a manual steering rack with plenty of room. Finally, getting ready to install this motor.

DVC

+1

968gene

Installed, running, and a bad slave...so the engine will need to come back out again. Tip: bench test the slave prior to the install.

LS1Porch

Are you sure?
It literally took me several years to get the clutch bled to where i want it. You might try a Motive bleeder before you completely give up!

TonyG

I fabricated up a SS line that threads into the slave and runs up to the top of the engine compartment where I have a speed bleeder on it.

:-)


TonyG

LS1Porch

Yeah, that would have been the way to do it a long time ago for me!