ls1 swap vs fixing/maintaining the 2.5l, was: pondering swapping an engine harness
08-07-2010, 03:43 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
ls1 swap vs fixing/maintaining the 2.5l, was: pondering swapping an engine harness
sorry this post is long, but there's a lot going on w/this car and i'm getting to the point of absolute indecision.
i may have had a revelation, crazy idea, or good plan while reading up on the stuff i'll need to be doing to get my car running *reliably*. i don't care about 500hp.
here's the deal w/my 951: i bought it in november 09, and got to drive it for maybe a month and a half at most total until i took it off the road in mid-february. it was $6k, and w/o going in to the sordid details (bad pre-purchase inspection, seller didn't know wtf he was selling me, some massive repair bills), i have *since* spent another $8k in repairs and parts. the list of repairs is staggering, but after the $5k breakdown i began to wonder if i should continue, or give up.
then i took of the intake manifold and saw doom. mid-march, i stopped, took a few months off, and recently decided to get started again. in the process of my research in to what i need to do on these and other sites, i constantly was reminded of the regular and potentially expensive maintenance costs on this car long-term. i can only do so much myself.
for the below, i have ALL parts except the rear wheel bearings. if i want to get the car running, safe and drivable, here's the quick list of what needs to happen. i can do most of this:
* crank/speed sensors replaced (won't start, no tach bounce)
* engine harness replacement
* battery leads replaced
* fuel lines replaced w/braided steel
* vacuum system completely re-done w/LR silicon venturi delete
* new A/F data logger installed
* rear wheel bearings replaced (clicking pretty constantly, and the rear axles are new)
* passenger side motor mount heat shield needs to be mounted
* exhaust manifold wrapped
* injectors rebuilt and matched
* fuel pressure gauge installed
* identify the wastegate (car parked @ an angle, to low to crawl underneath and nervous about jacking it up)
* entire intake system and manifold put back together
* TUNE TUNE TUNE. i have absolutely no clue what the engine is set for, but i'm sure it's lean (passed CA smog when purchased w/o any tuning changes)
* tires are nearly bald
* alignment desperately needed
this is what i *know* about. given the past expenses, multiple breakdowns, and steady stream of things being "fixed", it's not seeming to get any better. i'm considering just doing the bare minimum above (vacuum, crank/speed, battery leads, reassemble intake system) and see if it starts and runs ok.
here's what i am worried about:
* the car overheated once (led to the $5k repair)
* there's evidence of much heat affects on the sensor wiring harness, meaning other overheating incidents in the past
* i have been bitten by, identified some and fixed a few shady repairs from who knows when (the radiator held in place w/a wood screw drilled IN to the core was a contributor to the $5k repair. the screw was on the driver side, and hidden from view... or it would have been seen)
* when i was trying to move it in to my driveway to take it off the road, it wouldn't start. while cranking, there was a huge "clang" from the engine bay, like metal slammed on to metal with extreme force. my ears rang for a second. the car started up a minute later, and ran fine, pulling 15lbs and behaving like nothing had happened. scary. nothing was left in the bay, nothing on the driveway.
this is why i am growing hesitant to put any more money and effort in to a motor that at it's best, needs constant care and feeding. the costs over time could be absolutely insane, and for the money i could have purchased a great car w/no problems.
so, what do i do? i see three options:
1) sell or part out the car, make back as much $$ as i can and then decide what to do next. maybe a miata.
2) take off the temp fixes, and fix everything listed above. check the head gasket, too. do all of the scheduled maintenance. but i drive a real 944T. which is what i want.
3) pull out the engine and everything not needed for a LS1 swap. get the basic, cheapest package and smog stuff (i live in CA). this i didn't know i wanted until i thought about it. more hp, easier, and potentially cheaper in the long run.
i'm guessing i can get an engine (i have corvette friends here), conversion kits (RH mounting and smog), and with the help and bribery of a few of my hardcore car geek friends, put possibly it together for less than $7k. this number is nice in that it *shouldn't* move much, and i'll part out a known working engine.
fixing up the 944T could be cheaper in the short term, but it's the track record of gremlin after gremlin, all fatal in a way, on top of the known recurring maintenance costs leads me to believe that it'll either break my bank and cause me to hate porsches, or die right after i put another few thousand in to it.
the chassis seems to be in good shape, which is why i'm thinking LS1. do we have anyone here from CA who's got experience buying, building, smogging, registering and owning one here? if so, i'd love to chat for a bit. it's very tempting to remove the cancer and put in something that will go a long way for improving reliability.
i'm in no rush, but i'm hoping to drive it in november for my birthday. even more special would be BEFORE the date i bought it on last year.
i may have had a revelation, crazy idea, or good plan while reading up on the stuff i'll need to be doing to get my car running *reliably*. i don't care about 500hp.
here's the deal w/my 951: i bought it in november 09, and got to drive it for maybe a month and a half at most total until i took it off the road in mid-february. it was $6k, and w/o going in to the sordid details (bad pre-purchase inspection, seller didn't know wtf he was selling me, some massive repair bills), i have *since* spent another $8k in repairs and parts. the list of repairs is staggering, but after the $5k breakdown i began to wonder if i should continue, or give up.
then i took of the intake manifold and saw doom. mid-march, i stopped, took a few months off, and recently decided to get started again. in the process of my research in to what i need to do on these and other sites, i constantly was reminded of the regular and potentially expensive maintenance costs on this car long-term. i can only do so much myself.
for the below, i have ALL parts except the rear wheel bearings. if i want to get the car running, safe and drivable, here's the quick list of what needs to happen. i can do most of this:
* crank/speed sensors replaced (won't start, no tach bounce)
* engine harness replacement
* battery leads replaced
* fuel lines replaced w/braided steel
* vacuum system completely re-done w/LR silicon venturi delete
* new A/F data logger installed
* rear wheel bearings replaced (clicking pretty constantly, and the rear axles are new)
* passenger side motor mount heat shield needs to be mounted
* exhaust manifold wrapped
* injectors rebuilt and matched
* fuel pressure gauge installed
* identify the wastegate (car parked @ an angle, to low to crawl underneath and nervous about jacking it up)
* entire intake system and manifold put back together
* TUNE TUNE TUNE. i have absolutely no clue what the engine is set for, but i'm sure it's lean (passed CA smog when purchased w/o any tuning changes)
* tires are nearly bald
* alignment desperately needed
this is what i *know* about. given the past expenses, multiple breakdowns, and steady stream of things being "fixed", it's not seeming to get any better. i'm considering just doing the bare minimum above (vacuum, crank/speed, battery leads, reassemble intake system) and see if it starts and runs ok.
here's what i am worried about:
* the car overheated once (led to the $5k repair)
* there's evidence of much heat affects on the sensor wiring harness, meaning other overheating incidents in the past
* i have been bitten by, identified some and fixed a few shady repairs from who knows when (the radiator held in place w/a wood screw drilled IN to the core was a contributor to the $5k repair. the screw was on the driver side, and hidden from view... or it would have been seen)
* when i was trying to move it in to my driveway to take it off the road, it wouldn't start. while cranking, there was a huge "clang" from the engine bay, like metal slammed on to metal with extreme force. my ears rang for a second. the car started up a minute later, and ran fine, pulling 15lbs and behaving like nothing had happened. scary. nothing was left in the bay, nothing on the driveway.
this is why i am growing hesitant to put any more money and effort in to a motor that at it's best, needs constant care and feeding. the costs over time could be absolutely insane, and for the money i could have purchased a great car w/no problems.
so, what do i do? i see three options:
1) sell or part out the car, make back as much $$ as i can and then decide what to do next. maybe a miata.
2) take off the temp fixes, and fix everything listed above. check the head gasket, too. do all of the scheduled maintenance. but i drive a real 944T. which is what i want.
3) pull out the engine and everything not needed for a LS1 swap. get the basic, cheapest package and smog stuff (i live in CA). this i didn't know i wanted until i thought about it. more hp, easier, and potentially cheaper in the long run.
i'm guessing i can get an engine (i have corvette friends here), conversion kits (RH mounting and smog), and with the help and bribery of a few of my hardcore car geek friends, put possibly it together for less than $7k. this number is nice in that it *shouldn't* move much, and i'll part out a known working engine.
fixing up the 944T could be cheaper in the short term, but it's the track record of gremlin after gremlin, all fatal in a way, on top of the known recurring maintenance costs leads me to believe that it'll either break my bank and cause me to hate porsches, or die right after i put another few thousand in to it.
the chassis seems to be in good shape, which is why i'm thinking LS1. do we have anyone here from CA who's got experience buying, building, smogging, registering and owning one here? if so, i'd love to chat for a bit. it's very tempting to remove the cancer and put in something that will go a long way for improving reliability.
i'm in no rush, but i'm hoping to drive it in november for my birthday. even more special would be BEFORE the date i bought it on last year.
Last edited by incomplete; 08-08-2010 at 11:24 PM. Reason: massive change in direction
08-07-2010, 06:54 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Option 3. I rebuilt my entire harness with the LR harnesses and what circuits they didn't cover I cut and spliced after sourcing the resin impregnated fiberglass sheathing. Let me tell you it was a lot of work. I figure I had about 20 hours in the process. But now it's done and I don't have to worry about bare wire somewhere.
08-08-2010, 01:28 AM
#5
Racer
Thread Starter
what's the cost on this unit? seems like the install would be about the same as the stock harness, but i do understand the benefits of systems like this.
shane
08-08-2010, 11:23 AM
#7
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Houston, Texas
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Regarding cost you would need to discuss with Chris himself.
Last time we spoke he was experimenting with the Haltech Sport 2000 series after me bugging him about his Tec system and how I could incorporate his maps to my Haltech setup, looks like he liked the new software from Haltech.. LOL
It is so much more beneficial, you have full control over everything, BUT only if you plan to upgrade to a serious level. Trust me its worth the extra cost and with Chris in your corner you cant go wrong I think he provides the best tech support for our type of cars not to mention others as well.
I look at it this way MAF kit with chips = 1150 or something like that (dont quote me i never bought)
then you need piggy back to tune another 1000 I'm sure, then hopefully the stock DME will cooperate.. and your still stuck on stock ignition setup so good luck on the timing, yes I know it can be done with todays piggy backs but do you really trust it. just my .02, so back to price your at 2150, I have 1600 total in my full standalone by doing it myself. So full tune capability with any addition I want to add to my car without needing ask if it can be done tune wise and I saved money..
I believe John V has some great products but they all (being the adults) say the same thing its what your going for and how your going to use it. For me a standalone was more beneficial because I like to interchange parts and add new things, then I go to my laptop and enter in my updates in the tables i need and off i drive! Sure it might take a little longer for the initial setup but once its set man does it work better.
How many people do you see asking for someone to make them a chip and program capable of supporting this mod that mod and, for an example e-85 for 25% more fuel and timing adjustments, they waited and payed an extra for the new tables or software, I tuned and drove out the garage . That simple if you understand the process.
Chris' system comes with a fully terminated wiring harness so it would install like factory harness, all others you will need to create your own harness simple and money saving yet very time consuming.
Hope this helps a little.
Last time we spoke he was experimenting with the Haltech Sport 2000 series after me bugging him about his Tec system and how I could incorporate his maps to my Haltech setup, looks like he liked the new software from Haltech.. LOL
It is so much more beneficial, you have full control over everything, BUT only if you plan to upgrade to a serious level. Trust me its worth the extra cost and with Chris in your corner you cant go wrong I think he provides the best tech support for our type of cars not to mention others as well.
I look at it this way MAF kit with chips = 1150 or something like that (dont quote me i never bought)
then you need piggy back to tune another 1000 I'm sure, then hopefully the stock DME will cooperate.. and your still stuck on stock ignition setup so good luck on the timing, yes I know it can be done with todays piggy backs but do you really trust it. just my .02, so back to price your at 2150, I have 1600 total in my full standalone by doing it myself. So full tune capability with any addition I want to add to my car without needing ask if it can be done tune wise and I saved money..
I believe John V has some great products but they all (being the adults) say the same thing its what your going for and how your going to use it. For me a standalone was more beneficial because I like to interchange parts and add new things, then I go to my laptop and enter in my updates in the tables i need and off i drive! Sure it might take a little longer for the initial setup but once its set man does it work better.
How many people do you see asking for someone to make them a chip and program capable of supporting this mod that mod and, for an example e-85 for 25% more fuel and timing adjustments, they waited and payed an extra for the new tables or software, I tuned and drove out the garage
. That simple if you understand the process.Chris' system comes with a fully terminated wiring harness so it would install like factory harness, all others you will need to create your own harness simple and money saving yet very time consuming.
Hope this helps a little.
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08-08-2010, 01:11 PM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
It is so much more beneficial, you have full control over everything, BUT only if you plan to upgrade to a serious level. Trust me its worth the extra cost and with Chris in your corner you cant go wrong I think he provides the best tech support for our type of cars not to mention others as well.
thanks for the info about the standalones, though. from what you guys have said, removing and reinstalling a harness should be possible with the engine still in the car. if this is indeed the case, i should be really close to being ready to start.
long story short, my car's been dead in the driveway since february. it's been a money pit, and my goal is reliability first, handling and braking second, interior third, and hp fourth.
the car is pretty much in the right state to pull the harness out and install the new one. the entire intake system and manifold is off, as is the fuel rail.
grp8er -- do you have any specific advice, tips or tricks you could send my way regarding swapping the harness? what connectors are a pain to get to, any components i should unbolt and move out of the way, etc...
here's the photofailjournal i've been keeping:
http://picasaweb.google.com/incomple...4TurboProject#
thanks again for the help!
shane