944 engine weaknesses
#61
i mean really this is a big problem on this board, every time i try to delve into something creative or learn something that isnt the way the "cool kids" do it i get slammed by someone or a group, then why i defend myself i get in trouble with the "teacher" even though i'm a paying member as well.
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The best way to get power out of a 951 is to do your homework!!!!! This post is not technical in nature, but hopefully will save you lots of money and headache. People have given you some good ideas, some have given you some terrible advise (not on purpose of course).
Be reasonable with your requirements (HP, life span, reliability, intended purpose,..) now decide if you are building it yourself or you want a expert to do the work. A expert will not share his technical secrets on a public forum!
If you are building it yourself, the chances are you will not be asking a forum for advise. If you are not building the engine yourself, trust a well known builder like Chris White on this board.
If you are having someone build the engine make sure you know who you are dealing with. If you do not, you will end up with lots of money spent and nothing to show. Do you want a head and cam that grenade, a engine that comes apart, a engine management that does not work as promised, a replacement engine that sits for over a year and does not get done while you wait and continue to pay the big $$$? Of course, you do not hear these horror stories from the guy that is going through the nightmare, maybe he'll jump in and share the horror stories, but I doubt it!!
There has been all sort of empty promises and shattered dreams. Know what you are doing and who you trust or you will join the poor soul that is still waiting for his engine! Be careful who you listen to and ask for "actual well proven records". Don't settle for a recommendation from someone that has no actual proof of what he is recommending. Recommendation about a product or a person from someone on the forum that has no idea what he's talking about can cost you plenty. It's interesting, but not surprising, how people make recommendations based on 0 facts. Be careful not to get involved with someone that is yet to build a 400hp engine, yet will promise you a 700-800hp engine.
A 951 engine can make serious power, it will not be easy and will not be cheap. It's always nice to toss ideas around, just be careful what you wish for.
Be reasonable with your requirements (HP, life span, reliability, intended purpose,..) now decide if you are building it yourself or you want a expert to do the work. A expert will not share his technical secrets on a public forum!
If you are building it yourself, the chances are you will not be asking a forum for advise. If you are not building the engine yourself, trust a well known builder like Chris White on this board.
If you are having someone build the engine make sure you know who you are dealing with. If you do not, you will end up with lots of money spent and nothing to show. Do you want a head and cam that grenade, a engine that comes apart, a engine management that does not work as promised, a replacement engine that sits for over a year and does not get done while you wait and continue to pay the big $$$? Of course, you do not hear these horror stories from the guy that is going through the nightmare, maybe he'll jump in and share the horror stories, but I doubt it!!
There has been all sort of empty promises and shattered dreams. Know what you are doing and who you trust or you will join the poor soul that is still waiting for his engine! Be careful who you listen to and ask for "actual well proven records". Don't settle for a recommendation from someone that has no actual proof of what he is recommending. Recommendation about a product or a person from someone on the forum that has no idea what he's talking about can cost you plenty. It's interesting, but not surprising, how people make recommendations based on 0 facts. Be careful not to get involved with someone that is yet to build a 400hp engine, yet will promise you a 700-800hp engine.
A 951 engine can make serious power, it will not be easy and will not be cheap. It's always nice to toss ideas around, just be careful what you wish for.
#65
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you mean the guys who charge $60,000 because it says porsche for the same horsepower that you can get for "free" out of a junkyard?
all they really said was the only solution is big money, don't bother thinking outside the box, shutup, and made fun of me, discouraged me, like you are doing...
i don't need you to tell me what people said to me in the threads that i started... i started a new thread here because people (like you) can't seem to stay on topic, some kind of mcdonald's induced adhd disorder or something... this thread is about the weaknesses of the 944 engine and how to improve them... not strap on 1,000 feet of tubing and $2,000 headers and $300 shiney blue billet aluminum clamps and mounts just to get the same, less, or similar HP as $150 junkyard engine. it's their right to spend as much money as they want on the fancy tubing and blue paint but i dont interrupt their threads with useless nonsense (maybe just an offtopic question now and then) but i mean, really man, didn't your mom teach you any manners, stick to the topic... if you dont have the knowledge to contribute just stay out.
all they really said was the only solution is big money, don't bother thinking outside the box, shutup, and made fun of me, discouraged me, like you are doing...
i don't need you to tell me what people said to me in the threads that i started... i started a new thread here because people (like you) can't seem to stay on topic, some kind of mcdonald's induced adhd disorder or something... this thread is about the weaknesses of the 944 engine and how to improve them... not strap on 1,000 feet of tubing and $2,000 headers and $300 shiney blue billet aluminum clamps and mounts just to get the same, less, or similar HP as $150 junkyard engine. it's their right to spend as much money as they want on the fancy tubing and blue paint but i dont interrupt their threads with useless nonsense (maybe just an offtopic question now and then) but i mean, really man, didn't your mom teach you any manners, stick to the topic... if you dont have the knowledge to contribute just stay out.
I've noticed you like to compare apples to oranges. If you havent learned the fundamental differences then once again, Search is your friend. I'm not bashing you, I just want you to realize you own a Porsche and not an Audi.
I dont know how old you are, but there is a saying that usually everyone learns from experience; "You get what you pay for" You will find this to be very true.
A 10k 500hp 951 will generally be less reliable than a 20k 500hp 951.
Remember, everything must run in coordination.
I wish you the best of luck.
My $0.02
#66
The best way to get power out of a 951 is to do your homework!!!!! This post is not technical in nature, but hopefully will save you lots of money and headache. People have given you some good ideas, some have given you some terrible advise (not on purpose of course).
Be reasonable with your requirements (HP, life span, reliability, intended purpose,..) now decide if you are building it yourself or you want a expert to do the work. A expert will not share his technical secrets on a public forum!
If you are building it yourself, the chances are you will not be asking a forum for advise. If you are not building the engine yourself, trust a well known builder like Chris White on this board.
If you are having someone build the engine make sure you know who you are dealing with. If you do not, you will end up with lots of money spent and nothing to show. Do you want a head and cam that grenade, a engine that comes apart, a engine management that does not work as promised, a replacement engine that sits for over a year and does not get done while you wait and continue to pay the big $$$? Of course, you do not hear these horror stories from the guy that is going through the nightmare, maybe he'll jump in and share the horror stories, but I doubt it!!
There has been all sort of empty promises and shattered dreams. Know what you are doing and who you trust or you will join the poor soul that is still waiting for his engine! Be careful who you listen to and ask for "actual well proven records". Don't settle for a recommendation from someone that has no actual proof of what he is recommending. Recommendation about a product or a person from someone on the forum that has no idea what he's talking about can cost you plenty. It's interesting, but not surprising, how people make recommendations based on 0 facts. Be careful not to get involved with someone that is yet to build a 400hp engine, yet will promise you a 700-800hp engine.
A 951 engine can make serious power, it will not be easy and will not be cheap. It's always nice to toss ideas around, just be careful what you wish for.
Be reasonable with your requirements (HP, life span, reliability, intended purpose,..) now decide if you are building it yourself or you want a expert to do the work. A expert will not share his technical secrets on a public forum!
If you are building it yourself, the chances are you will not be asking a forum for advise. If you are not building the engine yourself, trust a well known builder like Chris White on this board.
If you are having someone build the engine make sure you know who you are dealing with. If you do not, you will end up with lots of money spent and nothing to show. Do you want a head and cam that grenade, a engine that comes apart, a engine management that does not work as promised, a replacement engine that sits for over a year and does not get done while you wait and continue to pay the big $$$? Of course, you do not hear these horror stories from the guy that is going through the nightmare, maybe he'll jump in and share the horror stories, but I doubt it!!
There has been all sort of empty promises and shattered dreams. Know what you are doing and who you trust or you will join the poor soul that is still waiting for his engine! Be careful who you listen to and ask for "actual well proven records". Don't settle for a recommendation from someone that has no actual proof of what he is recommending. Recommendation about a product or a person from someone on the forum that has no idea what he's talking about can cost you plenty. It's interesting, but not surprising, how people make recommendations based on 0 facts. Be careful not to get involved with someone that is yet to build a 400hp engine, yet will promise you a 700-800hp engine.
A 951 engine can make serious power, it will not be easy and will not be cheap. It's always nice to toss ideas around, just be careful what you wish for.
and how can we get past the super expensive obstacles? you seem to be an expert maybe you can shed some light on it since that is the topic of this discussion...
i'm looking forward to some real facts, not just advice on how to shop.
#67
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so if you could get an engine for $150 that would make 450whp or an ls1 for $2000 then a $7000 kit just to make 545, would you do it?
it doesnt seem like the ls1 is the engine to look at when trying to improve the 944 engine...
what i'm seeing is a lot of guys doing bandages to the 944 and spending their down payments for their houses, but not going deep in the structure of the engine so you dont have to bandage it so much...
and then guys who give up on the 944 engine which makes more sense than dropping $30k to get 450hp but i would like to see if there is an out of the box way to get even more out of this engine... i think going to look at audi's, honda's, mitsubishi's, and toyota's might give us some ideas because they seem more open minded and have a larger contributing moder base and are more concerned with the numbers than if its "traditional".
just my opinions...
it doesnt seem like the ls1 is the engine to look at when trying to improve the 944 engine...
what i'm seeing is a lot of guys doing bandages to the 944 and spending their down payments for their houses, but not going deep in the structure of the engine so you dont have to bandage it so much...
and then guys who give up on the 944 engine which makes more sense than dropping $30k to get 450hp but i would like to see if there is an out of the box way to get even more out of this engine... i think going to look at audi's, honda's, mitsubishi's, and toyota's might give us some ideas because they seem more open minded and have a larger contributing moder base and are more concerned with the numbers than if its "traditional".
just my opinions...
the head design on a 944 8v is far from optimal; it makes for some odd characteristics for the flame front once things are ignited and you have to take that into account when you are building and tuning. a pent-roof aluminum cylinder head like most 4v/cyl engines now have is much much more ideal which is why if you really want to start making power on a turbo 944 use the 16v engines.
one of my other cars is a 1996 infiniti q45. the early 90s were when fuel injection and stuff were really starting to get developed; they were pretty crude in the 80s (even our motronic). my q45 has an aluminum 4.5L 32v V8 with pent-roof heads that makes 310hp/300tq. (in 1996 a corvette with 5.7L made only 330hp). this is largely due to the superior design of the head, not because it revs high (6300rpm redline iirc).
the open deck as has been discussed allows the entire cylinders to flex somewhat which can be catastrophic if its too much. a closed deck is a way to solve this though.
the simple fact of the matter, with engine building, suspension mods, brakes, whatever you want to do to the 944, is that there simply is not enough of a market for performance parts. something like 160000 944s of any variety were ever built, including 944, 944S, 951, 951S, and 944S2. over the years that number has dropped enormously. the reason that a turbo kit to make 300whp for a k20 honda motor, aside from the stratospheric efficiency of those engines compared to our brick, can be sold cheaply is because there are a million billion of those engines out there and variants that can share parts. the more of a car there are the more potential there is for owners to want to modify it, and sheer volume of demand makes more and more options available which drives prices down. us 944 guys have like 4 vendors that do big performance stuff. vitesse, lindsey, cep, and speedforce. (sorry if i left you out). most others are aesthetic type stuff. they are largely on their own for developing new products and the R/D on things on a small-production engine takes alot of time and money which is then passed on to the customer.
#68
come on guys, i read every month in the car magazines and all over the internet about civics, and mitsubishis, and audi's and such getting 600, 700, 800, 1200 whp... what makes their engine's so special and the 944 porsche so "weak" and outlandishly expensive?
i think i might have to take a 944 engine to a honda builder or a audi builder and see what they can do with it, maybe learn some new "secrets".
i think i might have to take a 944 engine to a honda builder or a audi builder and see what they can do with it, maybe learn some new "secrets".
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OK, here is some info for your quest for knowledge –
There is dyno queen horsepower and there is usable track horsepower.
Porsche, by its heritage and design is about track horsepower. The engines are designed around the concept of running at full power for an extended duration – like 24 hours in some cases. Dyno queens run for 24 seconds. Anymore and they will be reduced to a pile of misshapen parts.
One of the reason that the 944 engines don’t put out the dyno HP numbers is that the crank and rods are seriously over built to last – as a result they are too heavy to run 8k+ rpm. You could lighten the crap out of the 944 parts and drop in a huge cam to make some high RPM power, but then you would have long term reliability issues.
If you want to know how to make a 944 based dyno queen I can’t (won’t) help you with that, to me that is just a waste of time, money and effort. All you get is bragging rights for the numbers on a slip of paper.
So, if you are wondering why the 944 builders aren’t making similar HP to the other imports is simply because we are playing a different game. I can’t tell you how many tweaked Supras, Hondas and even WRXs have come to Watkins Glen with big HP numbers on paper only to leave broken or worn out by the end of the first day.
There is dyno queen horsepower and there is usable track horsepower.
Porsche, by its heritage and design is about track horsepower. The engines are designed around the concept of running at full power for an extended duration – like 24 hours in some cases. Dyno queens run for 24 seconds. Anymore and they will be reduced to a pile of misshapen parts.
One of the reason that the 944 engines don’t put out the dyno HP numbers is that the crank and rods are seriously over built to last – as a result they are too heavy to run 8k+ rpm. You could lighten the crap out of the 944 parts and drop in a huge cam to make some high RPM power, but then you would have long term reliability issues.
If you want to know how to make a 944 based dyno queen I can’t (won’t) help you with that, to me that is just a waste of time, money and effort. All you get is bragging rights for the numbers on a slip of paper.
So, if you are wondering why the 944 builders aren’t making similar HP to the other imports is simply because we are playing a different game. I can’t tell you how many tweaked Supras, Hondas and even WRXs have come to Watkins Glen with big HP numbers on paper only to leave broken or worn out by the end of the first day.
#70
Burning Brakes
This may come off as somewhat snide, but the 944 engine *is* the weakness.
That's not to say that you can't do *anything* with it, but at the end of the day, it's a four-cylinder, 2.5 liter engine, and it was designed decades ago.
With enough expertise and folding-green-tool, one can coax considerable power from it, yes, but it's somewhat akin to building a model ship inside a bottle... limiting yourself to show expertise and give yourself a challenge.
From the standpoint of getting the most yield for your money, the ls1 swap truly has a lot to recommend it. It can be viewed as inelegant, the easy way out, a bastardization, or "ghetto". But the result is a pleasure to drive, and quite reliable.
That's not to say that you can't do *anything* with it, but at the end of the day, it's a four-cylinder, 2.5 liter engine, and it was designed decades ago.
With enough expertise and folding-green-tool, one can coax considerable power from it, yes, but it's somewhat akin to building a model ship inside a bottle... limiting yourself to show expertise and give yourself a challenge.
From the standpoint of getting the most yield for your money, the ls1 swap truly has a lot to recommend it. It can be viewed as inelegant, the easy way out, a bastardization, or "ghetto". But the result is a pleasure to drive, and quite reliable.
#71
the simple answer is that the 944 engine has many very very nice strong parts but other things make it a lump of crap. the aluminum engine block is nice for lightness but the aluminum cylinders, even with the alusil liners, are pretty delicate when compared to a steel sleeve which most of the 'big power' engines have, kind of like how the audi is an iron block tank.
in today's age you have to have 1000whp to be competitive and get noticed.
i watched supercars exposed as a custom 911 twin turbo sleeper beat a gemballa tuned 911 gt2, it was something like 1200hp vs 600hp
from what ive readin the road racing car world there are tons of 1000hp cars out there and its the norm... track racing might be different, i dont really know?
the head design on a 944 8v is far from optimal; it makes for some odd characteristics for the flame front once things are ignited and you have to take that into account when you are building and tuning. a pent-roof aluminum cylinder head like most 4v/cyl engines now have is much much more ideal which is why if you really want to start making power on a turbo 944 use the 16v engines. the open deck as has been discussed allows the entire cylinders to flex somewhat which can be catastrophic if its too much. a closed deck is a way to solve this though.
i did a search for people who have closed their deckon the 944 and havnt found one yet... can you direct me to documented builds like this?
ive seen a 928 who poured a cement substance in the block, but this was years ago...
the simple fact of the matter, with engine building, suspension mods, brakes, whatever you want to do to the 944, is that there simply is not enough of a market for performance parts. something like 160000 944s of any variety were ever built, including 944, 944S, 951, 951S, and 944S2.
over the years that number has dropped enormously. the reason that a turbo kit to make 300whp for a k20 honda motor, aside from the stratospheric efficiency of those engines compared to our brick, can be sold cheaply is because there are a million billion of those engines out there and variants that can share parts. the more of a car there are the more potential there is for owners to want to modify it, and sheer volume of demand makes more and more options available which drives prices down. us 944 guys have like 4 vendors that do big performance stuff. vitesse, lindsey, cep, and speedforce. (sorry if i left you out). most others are aesthetic type stuff. they are largely on their own for developing new products and the R/D on things on a small-production engine takes alot of time and money which is then passed on to the customer.
i think that a good goal, instead of swaping engines, would be to build a 944 engine that can take 30-40psi. how much hp/tq are we looking at there?
#72
This may come off as somewhat snide, but the 944 engine *is* the weakness.
That's not to say that you can't do *anything* with it, but at the end of the day, it's a four-cylinder, 2.5 liter engine, and it was designed decades ago.
With enough expertise and folding-green-tool, one can coax considerable power from it, yes, but it's somewhat akin to building a model ship inside a bottle... limiting yourself to show expertise and give yourself a challenge.
From the standpoint of getting the most yield for your money, the ls1 swap truly has a lot to recommend it. It can be viewed as inelegant, the easy way out, a bastardization, or "ghetto". But the result is a pleasure to drive, and quite reliable.
That's not to say that you can't do *anything* with it, but at the end of the day, it's a four-cylinder, 2.5 liter engine, and it was designed decades ago.
With enough expertise and folding-green-tool, one can coax considerable power from it, yes, but it's somewhat akin to building a model ship inside a bottle... limiting yourself to show expertise and give yourself a challenge.
From the standpoint of getting the most yield for your money, the ls1 swap truly has a lot to recommend it. It can be viewed as inelegant, the easy way out, a bastardization, or "ghetto". But the result is a pleasure to drive, and quite reliable.
#73
Rainman
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i watched supercars exposed as a custom 911 twin turbo sleeper beat a gemballa tuned 911 gt2, it was something like 1200hp vs 600hp
i think that a good goal, instead of swaping engines, would be to build a 944 engine that can take 30-40psi. how much hp/tq are we looking at there?
#74
OK, here is some info for your quest for knowledge –
There is dyno queen horsepower and there is usable track horsepower.
Porsche, by its heritage and design is about track horsepower. The engines are designed around the concept of running at full power for an extended duration – like 24 hours in some cases. Dyno queens run for 24 seconds. Anymore and they will be reduced to a pile of misshapen parts.
One of the reason that the 944 engines don’t put out the dyno HP numbers is that the crank and rods are seriously over built to last – as a result they are too heavy to run 8k+ rpm. You could lighten the crap out of the 944 parts and drop in a huge cam to make some high RPM power, but then you would have long term reliability issues.
If you want to know how to make a 944 based dyno queen I can’t (won’t) help you with that, to me that is just a waste of time, money and effort. All you get is bragging rights for the numbers on a slip of paper.
So, if you are wondering why the 944 builders aren’t making similar HP to the other imports is simply because we are playing a different game. I can’t tell you how many tweaked Supras, Hondas and even WRXs have come to Watkins Glen with big HP numbers on paper only to leave broken or worn out by the end of the first day.
There is dyno queen horsepower and there is usable track horsepower.
Porsche, by its heritage and design is about track horsepower. The engines are designed around the concept of running at full power for an extended duration – like 24 hours in some cases. Dyno queens run for 24 seconds. Anymore and they will be reduced to a pile of misshapen parts.
One of the reason that the 944 engines don’t put out the dyno HP numbers is that the crank and rods are seriously over built to last – as a result they are too heavy to run 8k+ rpm. You could lighten the crap out of the 944 parts and drop in a huge cam to make some high RPM power, but then you would have long term reliability issues.
If you want to know how to make a 944 based dyno queen I can’t (won’t) help you with that, to me that is just a waste of time, money and effort. All you get is bragging rights for the numbers on a slip of paper.
So, if you are wondering why the 944 builders aren’t making similar HP to the other imports is simply because we are playing a different game. I can’t tell you how many tweaked Supras, Hondas and even WRXs have come to Watkins Glen with big HP numbers on paper only to leave broken or worn out by the end of the first day.
http://www.80tq.com/EngineDamage.html
Oh well, what could I expect when my150HP/liter motor was pulled out of a junkyard with an unknown history? It held up for over 3 years, enduring over 30 track days, drag racing, commuting, and tuning experiments, one after the other. I had definitely gotten my money's worth. It really is a testament to the strength of the 10v MC motors. Aside from the abuse the piston had taken (and held up quite well), the rod appears useable, and the block is literally undamaged. This was a rusty junk yard motor that I got for almost free, making 400 crank HP even after likely more than 200k miles.
#75
Burning Brakes
There are some high-hp 951s out there, clean, pristine, and built and maintained by those far more knowledgeable than I.
But you missed my point. Which was:
What do YOU want? Do you want to challenge yourself to get the most you can out of the 944 engine? Or do you want to get the most you can out of the 944?
Because if it's the second, then the ls1 swap is the way to go. It's cheapER (not cheap if you do it right), it's reliable, it's got lots of nice low-end torque, it loves the 951 gearset, and the first thirty seconds, I drove one, I was floored.
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...ml#post6494219