944 engine weaknesses
11-03-2009, 01:09 PM
#16
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The owner of that car/site is Javad. He works for 034 Motorsports. His car has been the guinea pig for a lot of R&D on different products. Not to mention it has countless hours of dyno tuning to get the tune 100% perfect. Even though it is owned personally by Javad, it's a "shop car".
Like Sid said, the biggest weaknesses of the 944 engine is the open deck and head. A 944 revs to 6500-7000rpm whereas the Audi revs to 9000rpm.
If you compare this build to Special Tool's build I wouldn't say the Audi is much far ahead and isn't nearly as impressive. As stated before the Audi has 5 cylinders, so rods and pistons will see less stress than a 4 cylinder. Tool made 600whp at 6500rpm through a 2.5L 8v motor. The Audi made 700whp at 8000-8500rpm on a 2.3L 20v motor. If Tool had a 16V head and revved out as high as the Audi then I would put money on him making more power than it.
Like Sid said, the biggest weaknesses of the 944 engine is the open deck and head. A 944 revs to 6500-7000rpm whereas the Audi revs to 9000rpm.
If you compare this build to Special Tool's build I wouldn't say the Audi is much far ahead and isn't nearly as impressive. As stated before the Audi has 5 cylinders, so rods and pistons will see less stress than a 4 cylinder. Tool made 600whp at 6500rpm through a 2.5L 8v motor. The Audi made 700whp at 8000-8500rpm on a 2.3L 20v motor. If Tool had a 16V head and revved out as high as the Audi then I would put money on him making more power than it.
http://www.80tq.com/images/20vt/GT42RS/80TQ_703WHP.jpg
http://www.80tq.com/images/20vt/GT42RS/80TQ_703WHP2.jpg
that's 100 more whp in the audi i5 engine at the same RPM from a smaller displacement engine when compared to powerhaus's special tool $60,000 944 engine.
i think special tool, if its the black powerhaus car, is a 3 liter engine with an 8v head, which seems like a mistake to me, why limit yourself with the 8v head? im sure there is a reason, but i don't see it at the moment... special tool's engine is way more worked than the audi from what i can tell and way more expensive.
the stress on the internal rods arent the issue, you already said that the audi rods break more often than the 944 rods
i always thought that displacement meant more power... the 944 engines all have more displacement than the audi i5 engine, so from what you are saying is true if we use 3.0 or bigger 944 engine a ported and flowed s or s2 head and if we girdle and fill the deck then we should be able to match the strength of the audi i5 engine?
what about sleeves? is this another way to strengthen the deck without filling and girdling it? does it work to get 1000hp in the 944?
11-03-2009, 01:17 PM
#17
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Some observations:-
944 engines are tougher than people make out. There are a fw cars in the uk that have been running over 400hp for years with no problems with any of the above.
Inherantly though the all aluminium design of the engine is not as strong as the cast iron audi block and as such your not going to see many 700hp 944's. The Audi engine isn't all fun and games though, it requires stronger rods to reach anything more than 400hp and i believe the rest of the internalls (crank etc) are only good for around 500hp so its not quite as simple as using a stock engine to reach those figures. The main flaw over a 944 though is that the block is WAY heavier than the 944T block so would ruin the ballance of the car. The 944 was primarily designed to be a decent handling track racer.
You can make the internals capable of 700hp or more in a 944 using inserted steel liners and a closed deck block (see pauls UK 3.2 thread for pics) but the weight of the internalls for such a large 4cylinder engine tend to mean your more likely to see massive torque figures than big hp. Still.. having owned one running only low boost I'd be very interested to see a 700hp audi in a race with a 500hp /550ft/lb 944.
944 engines are tougher than people make out. There are a fw cars in the uk that have been running over 400hp for years with no problems with any of the above.
Inherantly though the all aluminium design of the engine is not as strong as the cast iron audi block and as such your not going to see many 700hp 944's. The Audi engine isn't all fun and games though, it requires stronger rods to reach anything more than 400hp and i believe the rest of the internalls (crank etc) are only good for around 500hp so its not quite as simple as using a stock engine to reach those figures. The main flaw over a 944 though is that the block is WAY heavier than the 944T block so would ruin the ballance of the car. The 944 was primarily designed to be a decent handling track racer.
You can make the internals capable of 700hp or more in a 944 using inserted steel liners and a closed deck block (see pauls UK 3.2 thread for pics) but the weight of the internalls for such a large 4cylinder engine tend to mean your more likely to see massive torque figures than big hp. Still.. having owned one running only low boost I'd be very interested to see a 700hp audi in a race with a 500hp /550ft/lb 944.
http://www.944-20v.nl/
the issue is also the cost to get a 500whp 944 vs the cost to get a 500whp audi i5... from what i have read the audi is MUCH cheaper to get hp from.
the guy at http://www.80tq.com/20vtMotor.html was tracking a 400whp audi i5 that he got for "free" at a junkyard and put in his car without even testing it. there is no 944 engine that will do this and the cost to get 400whp is in a 944 is about $10,000 for the 944turbo base car and about $10,000 for the rest of the engine work, so its really a dumb idea.
i think ive read about paul's 3.2 944, is that the car that he crashed into a wall right away after building it? are the exact details of the build posted anywhere so others can duplicate it? i read the thread and i didnt see them clearly posted out like the specs are posted about the audi i5 build at 80tq.com...
11-03-2009, 02:06 PM
#18
Audi I5 engine
The 20V engine / head is essentially the same as the 4 cyl. VW16v motors built in the late eightes and early 90's. Those heads can be made to flow good but the exhaust valve angle sucks.... Quite simpley the stock heads don't flow that much. You could take an off the shelf Integra head that flows alot better. That being said the stock Audi 20v head doesn't flow that much either in stock form. It just flows better then an 8v head. I am not trying to hate the Audi engine, simply stating the facts. It can be made to be a monster, although many engines can with $$$$$$
The 944 engine is a great engine for street/ track. In mild form the 944 makes loads of torque in a good powerband, I think we have to remember most of the time in a street / DE car torque with a wide powerband will be king.....
The 944 engine is a great engine for street/ track. In mild form the 944 makes loads of torque in a good powerband, I think we have to remember most of the time in a street / DE car torque with a wide powerband will be king.....
11-03-2009, 02:12 PM
#19
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i think special tool, if its the black powerhaus car, is a 3 liter engine with an 8v head, which seems like a mistake to me, why limit yourself with the 8v head? im sure there is a reason, but i don't see it at the moment... special tool's engine is way more worked than the audi from what i can tell and way more expensive.
Originally Posted by 944J
the stress on the internal rods arent the issue, you already said that the audi rods break more often than the 944 rods
Originally Posted by 944J
i always thought that displacement meant more power... the 944 engines all have more displacement than the audi i5 engine, so from what you are saying is true if we use 3.0 or bigger 944 engine a ported and flowed s or s2 head and if we girdle and fill the deck then we should be able to match the strength of the audi i5 engine?
Sounds like this is the thread for you: https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...hlight=1000whp
Also sounds like you need to buy an Audi.
I decided to get the both of best worlds... 2.5T and 20VT
11-03-2009, 03:04 PM
#21
Rainman
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if youve ever taken apart a 944 engine you will see that its a very good bottom end design...the crank is one of the most substantial chunks of steel youll ever see. plus the full bearing cradle with a thousand bolts makes for strength. the block structure itself is pretty good too, i think the best way to try to improve on it would be a deckplate at the top and wet steel sleeves.
11-03-2009, 03:29 PM
#23
Rainman
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these guys do deckplating.
http://www.customengineeredperforman.../services.html
11-03-2009, 04:00 PM
#24
Racer
Porsches of any type are always designed with balance in mind. Hp, torque, fuel economy, handling, braking etc. Very few Porsche models are "world beaters" in any one of these departments, but when put together, form a very potent package.
I'm not sure why you are stuck on the high HP figures. If you're looking for bragging rights on a dyno, don't build a 944 engine. Hp can also be misleading. It's the torque that gets your car moving (think of your 928 vs a 944 off the line), the hp is only useful at the top end (like at the end of a 1/4 mile). To have a truly useable, balanced car, you need both.
A 400 hp 944 is a very quick, reliable and potent street/track car. Not many cars, new or old, will be able to keep up, especialy on a road course or track.
I do agree with the general concensus that on of the weakest areas is the open deck. The cylinders can actually move slightly when under lots of boost, thus causing some of the "head gasket" stigma our c ars carry. If you stay around stock boost a wide-fire head gasket can help, but under heavy boost the stock gasket is actually better as it supplies more clamping force due to it's smaller sealing area, on the "floaty" cylinders bores.
I'm not sure why you are stuck on the high HP figures. If you're looking for bragging rights on a dyno, don't build a 944 engine. Hp can also be misleading. It's the torque that gets your car moving (think of your 928 vs a 944 off the line), the hp is only useful at the top end (like at the end of a 1/4 mile). To have a truly useable, balanced car, you need both.
A 400 hp 944 is a very quick, reliable and potent street/track car. Not many cars, new or old, will be able to keep up, especialy on a road course or track.
I do agree with the general concensus that on of the weakest areas is the open deck. The cylinders can actually move slightly when under lots of boost, thus causing some of the "head gasket" stigma our c ars carry. If you stay around stock boost a wide-fire head gasket can help, but under heavy boost the stock gasket is actually better as it supplies more clamping force due to it's smaller sealing area, on the "floaty" cylinders bores.
11-03-2009, 04:27 PM
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944J -- brilliant comments about the 20v engine being as strong as it truly is, and it's nice to see someone on here who knows a lot about the Audi equipment, but I'm not sure this should have been so much a comparison of these incredible engines from a combative point of view. The 20v had so much success racing in the late 80s that they had to friggin' ban it. What does that tell you all.
If there is a problem with the Porsche engine, then it is TORQUE. the torque numbers are kind of so-so.
Other than that, its the timing belt issues, and in the case of the 968, its all the crap that breaks around the engine, ps pumps, lines, oil cooler issues, radiators, ac, etc...
With running the 20v, i guess it would be fun to be different, but it's more like, HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS THIS TO DO ?? I see the front end of the Audi motor getting close to the hood and beyond that I don't see any problem with a very streetable 400-450 hp engine.
All these discussions about running 1.0 + bar of boost I find quite entertaining.
Unless you like spending your lives in the shop doing rebuilds. Who's needs more than 450 to 525 horsepower anyway ?
If there is a problem with the Porsche engine, then it is TORQUE. the torque numbers are kind of so-so.
Other than that, its the timing belt issues, and in the case of the 968, its all the crap that breaks around the engine, ps pumps, lines, oil cooler issues, radiators, ac, etc...
With running the 20v, i guess it would be fun to be different, but it's more like, HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS THIS TO DO ?? I see the front end of the Audi motor getting close to the hood and beyond that I don't see any problem with a very streetable 400-450 hp engine.
All these discussions about running 1.0 + bar of boost I find quite entertaining.
Unless you like spending your lives in the shop doing rebuilds. Who's needs more than 450 to 525 horsepower anyway ?
11-03-2009, 04:54 PM
#26
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944J -- brilliant comments about the 20v engine being as strong as it truly is, and it's nice to see someone on here who knows a lot about the Audi equipment, but I'm not sure this should have been so much a comparison of these incredible engines from a combative point of view. The 20v had so much success racing in the late 80s that they had to friggin' ban it. What does that tell you all.
If there is a problem with the Porsche engine, then it is TORQUE. the torque numbers are kind of so-so.
Other than that, its the timing belt issues, and in the case of the 968, its all the crap that breaks around the engine, ps pumps, lines, oil cooler issues, radiators, ac, etc...
With running the 20v, i guess it would be fun to be different, but it's more like, HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS THIS TO DO ?? I see the front end of the Audi motor getting close to the hood and beyond that I don't see any problem with a very streetable 400-450 hp engine.
All these discussions about running 1.0 + bar of boost I find quite entertaining.
Unless you like spending your lives in the shop doing rebuilds. Who's needs more than 450 to 525 horsepower anyway ?
If there is a problem with the Porsche engine, then it is TORQUE. the torque numbers are kind of so-so.
Other than that, its the timing belt issues, and in the case of the 968, its all the crap that breaks around the engine, ps pumps, lines, oil cooler issues, radiators, ac, etc...
With running the 20v, i guess it would be fun to be different, but it's more like, HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS THIS TO DO ?? I see the front end of the Audi motor getting close to the hood and beyond that I don't see any problem with a very streetable 400-450 hp engine.
All these discussions about running 1.0 + bar of boost I find quite entertaining.
Unless you like spending your lives in the shop doing rebuilds. Who's needs more than 450 to 525 horsepower anyway ?
but from what i read, that engine is the 944 of engines, cheapest to make big HP.
the guy from 80tq.com said that it would take $10-$15k to build a 1000whp audi i5 engine WITHOUT CUTTING CORNERS all from stuff bought from reputable and well known vendors... now just imagine how cheap it is to make 600whp while cutting corners and finding cheaper but just as good parts... now compare this cost to the $60,000 that porsche 944 engine builders charge... its like building the space shuttle to get 600hp out of a 944.
so i wonder what can we learn from this little audi i5 that has less displacement than the 944 engine?
i dont even think they lighten/shave the crank to get 700hp do they?
i think if we/i make audi i5 kit for the 944 then we've got the cheapest high hp engine swap available for the 944. even the ls1 seems harder and more expensive to make 400whp. but maybe the ls1 has a better powerband....
it seems like engine builders dance all around the main problems of the 944 engine instead of getting down to the cause of the blow head gaskets and failures and focusing on them...
so far from the thread ive taken the following are the weaknesses, please add or correct me:
1) open deck needs to be filled and braced (decked)
2) need steel sleeves to prevent cylinder walls from flexing during high HP
3) need to work to improve the flow of the head
anything else?
11-03-2009, 05:06 PM
#27
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4.) build a drivetrain to handle all the power
fyi, the axles used on Javad's car are $1k for the front pair and $1.5k for the rears. The fronts bolt in but the rear require the hubs to be machined.
Building an engine is one thing, building a car to handle/put down all that power is an entirely different thing.
Also, just like 944's the 20V engines bad oiling problems...even worse than the 944.
Straight out of Javad's mouth:
This problem was supposedly solved in the TDI I5's but the blocks are hard to find and not very common to use.
034 VR6T Time Attack A4
-GT42RS Turbo (they have used a GT45 on the car)
-only 28psi boost
-743whp
http://youtube.com/watch?v=71knc5xQ2Vg
fyi, the axles used on Javad's car are $1k for the front pair and $1.5k for the rears. The fronts bolt in but the rear require the hubs to be machined.
Building an engine is one thing, building a car to handle/put down all that power is an entirely different thing.
Also, just like 944's the 20V engines bad oiling problems...even worse than the 944.
Straight out of Javad's mouth:
Originally Posted by Javad @ 034
The VR6 motors are wonderful when it comes to managing crank case oil, the Audi I5 is TERRIBLE, the worst motor I've had to deal with especially compared to the V8, V6, 1.8t and all 4-cyl motors. The I5 places the main crank case breathing right next to the crank with almost no baffling, if ever you turn right oil floods the entire vent area and crank case pressure basically pumps oil right out of the motor.
034 VR6T Time Attack A4
-GT42RS Turbo (they have used a GT45 on the car)
-only 28psi boost
-743whp
http://youtube.com/watch?v=71knc5xQ2Vg
11-03-2009, 05:14 PM
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11-03-2009, 05:59 PM
#29
Rainman
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i dont know anything about either engines other than what ive read here and in books and from doing a little stuff on my 944's and 928.
but from what i read, that engine is the 944 of engines, cheapest to make big HP.
the guy from 80tq.com said that it would take $10-$15k to build a 1000whp audi i5 engine WITHOUT CUTTING CORNERS all from stuff bought from reputable and well known vendors... now just imagine how cheap it is to make 600whp while cutting corners and finding cheaper but just as good parts... now compare this cost to the $60,000 that porsche 944 engine builders charge... its like building the space shuttle to get 600hp out of a 944.
so i wonder what can we learn from this little audi i5 that has less displacement than the 944 engine?
i dont even think they lighten/shave the crank to get 700hp do they?
i think if we/i make audi i5 kit for the 944 then we've got the cheapest high hp engine swap available for the 944. even the ls1 seems harder and more expensive to make 400whp. but maybe the ls1 has a better powerband....
it seems like engine builders dance all around the main problems of the 944 engine instead of getting down to the cause of the blow head gaskets and failures and focusing on them...
so far from the thread ive taken the following are the weaknesses, please add or correct me:
1) open deck needs to be filled and braced (decked)
2) need steel sleeves to prevent cylinder walls from flexing during high HP
3) need to work to improve the flow of the head
anything else?
but from what i read, that engine is the 944 of engines, cheapest to make big HP.
the guy from 80tq.com said that it would take $10-$15k to build a 1000whp audi i5 engine WITHOUT CUTTING CORNERS all from stuff bought from reputable and well known vendors... now just imagine how cheap it is to make 600whp while cutting corners and finding cheaper but just as good parts... now compare this cost to the $60,000 that porsche 944 engine builders charge... its like building the space shuttle to get 600hp out of a 944.
so i wonder what can we learn from this little audi i5 that has less displacement than the 944 engine?
i dont even think they lighten/shave the crank to get 700hp do they?
i think if we/i make audi i5 kit for the 944 then we've got the cheapest high hp engine swap available for the 944. even the ls1 seems harder and more expensive to make 400whp. but maybe the ls1 has a better powerband....
it seems like engine builders dance all around the main problems of the 944 engine instead of getting down to the cause of the blow head gaskets and failures and focusing on them...
so far from the thread ive taken the following are the weaknesses, please add or correct me:
1) open deck needs to be filled and braced (decked)
2) need steel sleeves to prevent cylinder walls from flexing during high HP
3) need to work to improve the flow of the head
anything else?
simple fact of the matter. just imagine what kind of numbers youd see if you threw $10k at an LS2 or something similar, compared to that audi. not to detract from the audis potential but the LS engines are a much superior design all around.
11-03-2009, 06:05 PM
#30
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for sheer power output you will be hard pressed to find an engine that will swap into a 944 that is better than an LS-series motor.
simple fact of the matter. just imagine what kind of numbers youd see if you threw $10k at an LS2 or something similar, compared to that audi. not to detract from the audis potential but the LS engines are a much superior design all around.
simple fact of the matter. just imagine what kind of numbers youd see if you threw $10k at an LS2 or something similar, compared to that audi. not to detract from the audis potential but the LS engines are a much superior design all around.