Nine11

Hahaha. Thank goodness we didn't have a 944 on my screen....otherwise I'd have to say the same thing.

alxdgr8

JET951

Arthur, you bring up a very interesting story on how the 911, or should i say the beetle came to be.(the 911 is an evolutionary step from the original beetle.)

Tatra.
The name “Porsche” brings up images of high
performance, German engineering and racing.
However it could have easily been “Tatra” with
images of high precision Czech engineering and
racing. We would all be members of the Tatra
Club of Queensland, or we could all be driving
around in a Ledwinka 911! But fate has a way of
being cruel sometimes. Here is the story…

The Czech Republic is a small country just to the
east of Germany with a population of 10 million
people. It used to be Czechoslovakia until 1990
when it split into the Czech Republic and
Slovakia. At the beginning of the 20 century, it
was the heart of European culture and
technology and home to many such as Albert
Einstein, Ferdinand Porsche and Hans Ledwinka
(Hans who you say?.... read on).

FERDINAND PORSCHE and VW
Ferdinand Porsche was born in what is now the
Czech Republic on the3 September 1875. He
received his early mechanical education at a
local technical college and by also helping his
father in his mechanical shop. He later went to
work at Jakob Lohner & Co where the innovative
Lohner-Porsche was developed. This was one of
the world's first hybrid cars with an internal
combustion engine and 4 electric motors
mounted at each wheel. No doubt the Porsche
marketing department will be reminding us about
that one now a century later as hybrid cars are
making a comeback.

Ferdinand Porsche then served his military
service where he was a chauffeur to Archduke
Franz Ferdinand of Austria, the crown prince of
Austria whose assassination sparked World War
I (I hope Porsche wasn't on the job on that day).
He joined Astro-Diamler (which later became
Daimler-Benz) before World War I and worked
his way up to Managing Director. He left in 1929
just before the Great Depression and ended up
being unemployed for a couple of years before
starting his own firmin Stuttgart in 1931. His
lucky break came 3 years later in 1934 when
Adolf Hitler wanted a people's car and came
knocking on Porsche's door.

That's when Porsche came knocking on
Ledwinka's door.

HANS LEDWINKAand TATRA
FATE
Around the same time, another bright engineer
called Hans Ledwinka was working at Tatra.
Based in the Czech Republic, Tatra was the third
oldest car company in the world (behind
Mercedes Benz and Peugeot) and produced very
advanced cars for the time. It was the prestige
brand of the time and if you owned a Tatra then
you were either a president, a millionaire or
somebody really important.

Hans Ledwinka produced the T77 in 1934 with a
rear-mounted air cooled 8 cylinder engine (yes
8!!!) and a drag coefficient of only 0.212 which is
better than most modern cars. Today's 997 has a
drag coefficient of 0.29 and the new 997 turbo
has 0.31, showing just how ahead of its time the
Tatra was.

Just imagine this for a second take out the flat 6
fromyour 911 and replace it with a V8 the
acceleration would be just awesome but handling
would be a handful what a car! In fact the Tatra
became known as the Czech Secret Weapon
against **** Germany because so many
German officers were killed trying to display their
manhood by pushing their Tatras to the limit.
Official German orders had to be issued
forbidding German officers fromdriving a Tatra.

FATE
In 1938 World War II was heating up and the
hand of fate would deal a cruel blow to Hans
Ledwinka and right into the hands of Ferdinand
Porsche. Because Porsche picked Stuttgart to
start his business and Ledwinka was still in
Czech Republic, Hitler awarded Porsche the
contract to design the future VWBeetle

Porsche and Ledwinka frequently discussed
design ideas and obviously Porsche liked the
Tatra because he submitted his proposal for a
smaller 2 door version of the Tatra T97 with a
rear-mounted flat 4 air cooled engine and a
rounded body which is still evident in the 911s
today 70 years later. A legal action arose
between VWand Tatra, but since Hitler had a
unique way of doing business (he invaded the
whole country) the issue was not resolved until
1961 when VWwas ordered to pay 3 million
Deutsche Marks in damages to Tatra

THE BITTER END
But the damage had already been done.
Czechoslovakia (later renamed to the Czech
Republic after independence in 1990) suffered
for the next 50 years under first **** rule and
later communist rule. The once great Tatra
company now only makes trucks and Hans
Ledwinka died in 1967. He lived long enough to
see VWbecome the biggest automaker in
Europe and also the launch of the first Porsche
911, all because of his rear-mounted air-cooled
engine design.

944obscene

Yeah drive around for a week and show us any pictures of 1970's 911's you see on the road that actually look like that... Nice 951's are all over the place, driven every day and not uncommon in areas where you see the likes of Porsches, or other modestly priced sports cars (probably not gonna spot one too easily in Miami).

With that said, I see nice examples all the time of older Porsches on the road. Strange thing is, with the popularity of the 911 and the following it inspires; I hardly spot older ones on a regular basis. I tend to see a number expensive cars on nice nights. Cars amongst Ferraris, Maseratis, maybe a Morgan or simply new Z06's. I could name on one hand, how many times I've spotted a 964, or 930, or even an older 911. A couple 993's I guess, but that's getting away from the "classics" and on to more modern cars.

What do you guys do with your 911's?! Let them sit in the garage until the humidity/dust/pollen levels, and temperature are all just right? lol, And I can't for the life of me figure out why every time I see a 911 on the road- I wave, and I can't get so much as a head nod from you guys! I can be out enjoying a nice sunny day, and spot a Porsche up ahead. As I pull next to the 911/Boxster I give a big smile and wave. The only people that smile and wave back are fellow 944 owners or 928 owners. One time I ran across a Carrera GT, and he was cool as all get out. Nice guy and chatted for a second at a stoplight one night.

Hmm... Speaks voulmes. But confused signals are conveyed. I know several people that own 911's and other Porsches. I will defend Porsche owners against the negative antics all day. WE. US. From what I've seen, are some of the coolest guys around. Most Porsche guys will chat it up with someone they hardly know just for fun. I've been able to have a fun conversation with most everyone I've met. But behind the wheel, I get a totally different vibe.

So I guess I addressed two issues there. One: Where are all the cool old 911's that people post pictures of? And second: Why do most 911 or Boxster owners (and even some Cayenne guys) tend to ignore other motorists or fail to return a wave from a fellow owner? It's a social experiment I've observed and tested for a while now.

ArthurPE

thanks, very interesting...

the jist is he basically stole the design and modified it...

I knew he built an electric driven 4wd vehicle...
he also built farm tractors too?

he was a good engineer, and used what he had available...in the rubble of Germany he had the bug, so he based a 'sports car' on it...

but I would venture to say, if he emerged from a time warp from 1930, and had some time to study what's been done since he entered it, he would not design a rear engined sports car...

it was easy to construct and assemble, and cheap
easy to service, whole drive train drops out
economy of packaging/space utilization, ie, less mechanicals, more cabin space
good traction on rough terrain/roads, and in snow...although unstable

a lot of the weaknesses have been mitigated:
water cooling
better tires/wheels
weight distribution/materials
electronics, ABS/stability & traction control
AWD

but it's still, imho, a anachronism, a niche car, more beloved for it's history and cache, than out right performance and design...

there are many cars of equal or better performance to the 997, that cost much less, and afford more practicality...

life is about choices, and it's good to have them, but let's not let our passion make us blind to sound engineering practice...

look at a BMW, any BMW, they design the car around 50/50 wt dist., even AMG doesn't do that 55/45
push the engine back and down, stretch the wheelbase...
balance
even mid engined cars strive for it...
a rear engined car has the wt of the engine using the rear axle as a lever...
and when the front bounces, it helps it do so...like pushing off on a see-saw...

the perfect car, imo, 50/50 with the center of mass/gravity being equal...
right in the centroid of the vehicle...and down low...
maybe slight rerward bias, 48/52 or so
which is pretty much what a 944 is loaded, no?

now a mid engined 911 would be interesting, but then it's not a 911 is it?

this is one of those things that will never be agreed upon, or resolved?

who was the best all around baseball player? lol

ltc

Remember, this is NOT the P&C subforum .... seems like you forgot where you were posting for a minute...

ltc

You just described a modern kart ...

ArthurPE

perhaps, and if wrong I apologize

but when discussing the reasons for love of the car, such as it's history, etc., isn't the whole history germane to the discussion?

it's one strike the VW and it's derivitives have against them, for me

but I'll be more careful in the future

Bob Rouleau

Just a few comments I am a Porsche Fan and have been driving them since 1972 (a 914 was my first). I came close to buying a 951 but in Canada the 951 was actually a bit more expensive than the then current 911 and for the same money the 911 had more cachet - the fast revving flat six and its wonderful sound closed the deal.

That being said, comparing model year for model year, the 944 and especially the 968 were the best handling cars by far. In addition, they were far more practical, being able to carry a lot of stuff. The 911 driver could carry - no so much

Today, track drivers appreciate the very benign handling of the 924/44/68 cars which are not only capable but forgiving. Turbo cars lend themselves to power increases for less money than normally aspirated versions. That makes a 951 a performance bargain. Porsche built and sold a lot of 944s and 951s so they are plentiful on the used market. A great entry level car for the younger people who are smitten with love for Porsches.

I have never understood why some 911 owners look down on the 944/51/68 models. On the other hand I have never understood why owners of said cars are so touchy about owning them. Truth be known, there was one heck of a battle between the 911 and 944(and variants) factions at Porsche since the Turbo S was arguably faster than the 911 of the same vintage. Easier to drive fast too. Finally the Porsche family stepped in and ended the war by dictating that the 911 would carry the laurels. That went on until the new boss decided that the era of the air-cooled engine was over and planned to drop the 911. The 928 was the new flagship. We all know what happened. I remember going shopping for a new Porsche and leaving with a new 911 which had a sticker of about half of the heavily optioned 928 they tried to sell me.

Which reminds me that the prices Porsche charged for the 951 S and the 968 were very close to the 911s of the same years - hardly a reason for someone to think they are a second class citizen for owning one! Heck if price was the determining factor the 928 guys are driving the most expensive (not to mention complex) cars.

So after this long rant, true Porsche fans like and appreciate them all. In fact in this thread, ArthurPE and nine11 (protagonists both) each expressed admiration for both variants. LART - who came by his "Most Banned" title honestly, likes nothing more than stirring up emotions and is famous for flame threads with the 928 gang. For that reason, his comments may be ignored.

Best,

lart951

Who? meeeeeeeee? that hurts. When I did the 928 flame threads it was RandyV a 928 owner who banned me a few times, now that is a 911 you come to the rescue, that's so unfair. Ok I was messing around, I do like the 911 even the 80's.

Bob Rouleau

There, that wasn't so hard now was it

lart951

Of course not, specially when under your name there is a title that reads Administrator


























ps. Can I start a 928 vs 951 thread? lol

spoolin51

The GT3 gen 2 is so sick.
Have you guys seen how the lights go all crazy when you hit the brakes?

rdhayward

All this talk of Porsche and dictators is getting me hot and bothered, reminds me of an exchange in the movie "Caligula":

Tiberius (Peter O'Toole): Little Boots, do you prefer nymphs or satyrs?
Caligula (Malcolm MacDowell): Actually, I like both, grandfather.
Tiberius: We need both.

BTW, the 2007 release is waaaaay better than the original 1979 version. Nobody's shaved like modern adult cinema. But I digress...

So, Superman or Batman? What was the question again?

sebastian944

According to Forza3 (which was released today, go buy it!) designers this is the breakdown between these two cars.

1989 Porsche 944 Turbo (217hp whoops! that is wrong! all '89 944T had 250hp)

$12,000

speed 5.4
handling 5.0
acceleration 4.2
launch 5.5
brake 4.8

Class D (294)

1982 Porsche 911 Turbo 3.3

$38,000

speed 5.7
handling 5.0
acceleration 5.2
launch 5.4
brake 4.9

Class C (360)


I'm not really sure of the 944T should be 4.2 acceleration and the 911T 5.2