cheap headers
07-12-2009, 09:01 AM
#16
Race Car
If Tim says they're crap, jump on the bus. NO ONE makes better, more thoroughly tested exhaust manifolds, than Tim.
He will even tell you where the torque curve changes, and why.
Keep a good solid set of stock exhaust manifolds, or have Tim make you a set. There is a GREAT reason why Porsche designed our exhaust manifolds EXACTLY the way they did.
Ask Tim, and he'll tell you why, then he'll tell you what his do, that is designed to be a bit different.
In a turbo car it's 100% about the specific application. Misdesigned exhaust manifolds, which lead DIRECTLY to the turbo hotside, are a GIANT performance distaster.
These cars haul ***, once they get to the center of the power band. Unless you can move more exhaust faster, you are pissing in the wind, buying these manifolds.
If you are going big HP, Tim has exactly what you need, and may be able to create something for less HP.
If you are going to stay within about 50 hp of stock, spend your cash on making sure your stock exhaust manifolds/crossover are perfect, and spend the rest on a REALLY GOOD head. Tim does THAT as well.
You cheap asses have been warned.
HP COSTS CASH!
He will even tell you where the torque curve changes, and why.
Keep a good solid set of stock exhaust manifolds, or have Tim make you a set. There is a GREAT reason why Porsche designed our exhaust manifolds EXACTLY the way they did.
Ask Tim, and he'll tell you why, then he'll tell you what his do, that is designed to be a bit different.
In a turbo car it's 100% about the specific application. Misdesigned exhaust manifolds, which lead DIRECTLY to the turbo hotside, are a GIANT performance distaster.
These cars haul ***, once they get to the center of the power band. Unless you can move more exhaust faster, you are pissing in the wind, buying these manifolds.
If you are going big HP, Tim has exactly what you need, and may be able to create something for less HP.
If you are going to stay within about 50 hp of stock, spend your cash on making sure your stock exhaust manifolds/crossover are perfect, and spend the rest on a REALLY GOOD head. Tim does THAT as well.
You cheap asses have been warned.
HP COSTS CASH!
thanks
07-12-2009, 09:33 AM
#17
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That's part of the heat shielding from the 1 and 4 piece. If you look, you'll see that the 1 pipe is longer. so it has to send more hot gasses a farther distance. That baffle allows for a bit of expansion, as well as keeping the heat in. It's most common that you'll find cracks in the 2 and 3 manifold pipes rather than in the 1 and 4.
Inside of what is visible is some sort of heat absorbing crap. Don't know what it is.
This design is to maximize the mid range torque, which is a primary reason that 951's are so damned fast, on the track.
SFR (Tim) makes a couple of manifolds that are works of art. His stage 2 creates a significant HP boost, but the torque comes on a bit later. I'm less familiar with his stage 1 units.
His stage 2 is basically a perfect design for an over bore or track engine. That's why buyers don't blink at the price. It's tested and PROVEN, by MULTIPLE sources...all reliable and without a bias.
Tim might know what the insulating crap is, in the stock piece. It's REALLY hard to find a 2 and 3 piece that isn't cracked. That is a big source of power loss.
You want everything from the inlet charge to the final exhaust to be as air tight as is physically possible, but ESPECIALLY between the head and the turbo hotside to cold side. A leak, after the wastegate isn't as critical.
You want to compress the air as completely and quickly as possible, to make power.
Inside of what is visible is some sort of heat absorbing crap. Don't know what it is.
This design is to maximize the mid range torque, which is a primary reason that 951's are so damned fast, on the track.
SFR (Tim) makes a couple of manifolds that are works of art. His stage 2 creates a significant HP boost, but the torque comes on a bit later. I'm less familiar with his stage 1 units.
His stage 2 is basically a perfect design for an over bore or track engine. That's why buyers don't blink at the price. It's tested and PROVEN, by MULTIPLE sources...all reliable and without a bias.
Tim might know what the insulating crap is, in the stock piece. It's REALLY hard to find a 2 and 3 piece that isn't cracked. That is a big source of power loss.
You want everything from the inlet charge to the final exhaust to be as air tight as is physically possible, but ESPECIALLY between the head and the turbo hotside to cold side. A leak, after the wastegate isn't as critical.
You want to compress the air as completely and quickly as possible, to make power.
07-12-2009, 09:45 AM
#18
Race Car
That's part of the heat shielding from the 1 and 4 piece. If you look, you'll see that the 1 pipe is longer. so it has to send more hot gasses a farther distance. That baffle allows for a bit of expansion, as well as keeping the heat in. It's most common that you'll find cracks in the 2 and 3 manifold pipes rather than in the 1 and 4.
Inside of what is visible is some sort of heat absorbing crap. Don't know what it is.
This design is to maximize the mid range torque, which is a primary reason that 951's are so damned fast, on the track.
SFR (Tim) makes a couple of manifolds that are works of art. His stage 2 creates a significant HP boost, but the torque comes on a bit later. I'm less familiar with his stage 1 units.
His stage 2 is basically a perfect design for an over bore or track engine. That's why buyers don't blink at the price. It's tested and PROVEN, by MULTIPLE sources...all reliable and without a bias.
Tim might know what the insulating crap is, in the stock piece. It's REALLY hard to find a 2 and 3 piece that isn't cracked. That is a big source of power loss.
You want everything from the inlet charge to the final exhaust to be as air tight as is physically possible, but ESPECIALLY between the head and the turbo hotside to cold side. A leak, after the wastegate isn't as critical.
You want to compress the air as completely and quickly as possible, to make power.
Inside of what is visible is some sort of heat absorbing crap. Don't know what it is.
This design is to maximize the mid range torque, which is a primary reason that 951's are so damned fast, on the track.
SFR (Tim) makes a couple of manifolds that are works of art. His stage 2 creates a significant HP boost, but the torque comes on a bit later. I'm less familiar with his stage 1 units.
His stage 2 is basically a perfect design for an over bore or track engine. That's why buyers don't blink at the price. It's tested and PROVEN, by MULTIPLE sources...all reliable and without a bias.
Tim might know what the insulating crap is, in the stock piece. It's REALLY hard to find a 2 and 3 piece that isn't cracked. That is a big source of power loss.
You want everything from the inlet charge to the final exhaust to be as air tight as is physically possible, but ESPECIALLY between the head and the turbo hotside to cold side. A leak, after the wastegate isn't as critical.
You want to compress the air as completely and quickly as possible, to make power.
thanks for making it easy for me to understand.
07-12-2009, 10:58 AM
#19
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Porsche created the VW bug, in like 1934. How could you be surprised?
This basic car won the 24 hours of LeMans, in it's class, under B.F Goodrich/Brumos Racing, using only cut down BFG T/A street radials. I'll try to find the youtube vid.
Porsche was winning before EITHER of us, and before MOST members of this baord, were born. They never used to take any part for granted. Even 914's were great race cars...and still are.
This is a very special breed, and those who get that will always own a Porsche.
This basic car won the 24 hours of LeMans, in it's class, under B.F Goodrich/Brumos Racing, using only cut down BFG T/A street radials. I'll try to find the youtube vid.
Porsche was winning before EITHER of us, and before MOST members of this baord, were born. They never used to take any part for granted. Even 914's were great race cars...and still are.
This is a very special breed, and those who get that will always own a Porsche.
07-12-2009, 11:22 AM
#20
Race Director
If Tim says they're crap, jump on the bus. NO ONE makes better, more thoroughly tested exhaust manifolds, than Tim.
He will even tell you where the torque curve changes, and why.
Keep a good solid set of stock exhaust manifolds, or have Tim make you a set. There is a GREAT reason why Porsche designed our exhaust manifolds EXACTLY the way they did.
Ask Tim, and he'll tell you why, then he'll tell you what his do, that is designed to be a bit different.
In a turbo car it's 100% about the specific application. Misdesigned exhaust manifolds, which lead DIRECTLY to the turbo hotside, are a GIANT performance distaster.
These cars haul ***, once they get to the center of the power band. Unless you can move more exhaust faster, you are pissing in the wind, buying these manifolds.
If you are going big HP, Tim has exactly what you need, and may be able to create something for less HP.
If you are going to stay within about 50 hp of stock, spend your cash on making sure your stock exhaust manifolds/crossover are perfect, and spend the rest on a REALLY GOOD head. Tim does THAT as well.
You cheap asses have been warned.
HP COSTS CASH!
He will even tell you where the torque curve changes, and why.
Keep a good solid set of stock exhaust manifolds, or have Tim make you a set. There is a GREAT reason why Porsche designed our exhaust manifolds EXACTLY the way they did.
Ask Tim, and he'll tell you why, then he'll tell you what his do, that is designed to be a bit different.
In a turbo car it's 100% about the specific application. Misdesigned exhaust manifolds, which lead DIRECTLY to the turbo hotside, are a GIANT performance distaster.
These cars haul ***, once they get to the center of the power band. Unless you can move more exhaust faster, you are pissing in the wind, buying these manifolds.
If you are going big HP, Tim has exactly what you need, and may be able to create something for less HP.
If you are going to stay within about 50 hp of stock, spend your cash on making sure your stock exhaust manifolds/crossover are perfect, and spend the rest on a REALLY GOOD head. Tim does THAT as well.
You cheap asses have been warned.
HP COSTS CASH!
I just want to say as much as I like SFR (and I have been eye balling the crossover/manifolds from them) the dude sells a competing product for more than 2x the price. I'm am sure Tim's are higher quality, a proven product, and made in the USA, etc, but....he sells a competing product for $949 (not including downpipe/wastegate pipe) No matter how honest Tim is , it is a biased opinion. It would like asking McDonalds how Burger King burgers are, no matter how good they might be, McDonalds will say they are garbage...
OBX has a terrible reputation, but at this point they have been copying other proven designs (****ty? yes. but they aren't bad designs as they copy what is proven) for over 10 yrs and have been consistently been improving their products to the point were Fabspeed etc get their exhaust systems made in China themselves... From what I'm reading in Pelican, Imagine Auto even resells OBX manifolds as some customers want a choice. A more economical choice? Yeah, but I doubt Imagine Auto would put pure garbage on their cars!
Am I going to buy these? Probably not, as I have a good set of factory headers and 2x backups.... but I am happy there is a MUCH cheaper alternative that will provide some competition to our aftermarket suppliers, who charge out of the *** for anything just because of the market. Yes, I understand they have a bigger market etc but it is ridicolous how much some things cost for these cars (aftermarket) and compettion will only bring the price down!
On top of that, if 930 guys are consistently buying and TRACKING their much more expensive 930s with these... I doubt they are garbage. It may be more inconsistent quality, but still a far cry from garbage. Oh, and it will be very hard to find ANY stainless header that won't crack eventually
Last edited by MM951; 07-12-2009 at 11:43 AM.
07-12-2009, 11:33 AM
#21
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I'm still at work but before a longer reply.. I just want to say as much as I like SFR (and I have been eye balling the crossover/manifolds from them) the dude sells a competing product for more than 2x the price. I'm am sure Tim's are higher quality, a proven product, and made in the USA, etc, but....he sells the a competing product for $949.
That isn't remotely his competition.
Hell, that isn't even Broadfoot's competition.
Tim makes proven parts, with the finest craftsmanship in the business.. You get what you pay for, and that applies to BOTH products in question.
250 bucks isn't that much, if you like the warm, soothing, amonia smelling shower, that you get from pissing into a 100 mile an hour wind.
It's your money. knock yourself out!
There are few more important performance systems on your car.
07-12-2009, 01:17 PM
#22
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**** I think I want to try out these headers. It isn't that much money. I will think about it and perhaps do a before/after dyno comparison test... then see how long they hold up
07-12-2009, 02:26 PM
#23
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That is an expansion bellows. It allows the header to expand and contract during operation. This relieves some stress on the pipe to pipe weld and the flange to pipe welds at the exhaust port. Note that the No. 1 and No. 4 pipes join from opposite directions thus under expainsion due to heat, the assembly will try to spread the assembly apart causing stress at the weld. You also will get some bending at the pipe to pipe Y joint. The 2-3 header doesn't have that issue as the pipes are in the direction. The early 944 Turbo (1986 at least) didn't have the bellows and there was cracking at the flange welds. Porsche replaced them under warranty with the bellows type shown in the photo. Mine was replaced under warranty in the late '80's. The non-warranty cost was about $2300. I think that later 928 have expansion bellows in their headers too. They are common is a lot of exhaust systems.
07-12-2009, 08:29 PM
#24
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well its not fair to compare SFR's stage 2 but it is fair to compare an SFR stage one and 3" dump and at 3 times the price is it 3 times better ?
if the Chinese one cracks yes if not no ...
at this stage no first or second hand accounts of cracking .
at the end of the day I will always be willing pay more to support the local guy but i won't let him forget it ...
if the Chinese one cracks yes if not no ...
at this stage no first or second hand accounts of cracking .
at the end of the day I will always be willing pay more to support the local guy but i won't let him forget it ...
