Chris White

Let me put it this way - I might use that belt on my car....but maybe not on a customers car!

Travis - sflraver

Saying the belt is untested is wrong. Gates tests a sample of each production barrel of belts. This is true for both the standard belts and the racing belts. The test procedure incorporates variable rpm and load over a series of rollers. After the test procedure, the belt is then inspected for wear and fatigue.

The test procedure for the racing belts is the same, only it has to endure this stress for 3 times that of the standard belt. If the test belt shows any signs of fatigue then the whole batch is thrown away and everything stops until they analyze what caused the premature wear.

Gates is responsible for your timing belt / engine in the event of failure and they stand behind their warranty. They don't want any mistakes. This is a much higher quality belt than the standard belt and it is not some kind of untested / unproven "new product" sold on the street corner. Just FYI.

Chris White

What I meant is untested...by me!
The belts are probably great, but most good techs will not jump behind a product unless they have actual experience with it.

I am not picking on your stuff Travis, in fact if I had the time I might even do some research on it a give one a try in one of my personal engines. I was just trying to explain why a prudent tech would toss out the 'not gonna guarantee it' statement!

sebastian944

I think what Travis is saying if it's a Porsche OEM approved product he should guarantee it.

Travis - sflraver

And I completely agree if it was a new physical design or a different product all together. The fact is that the 944 timing belt material is a 20+ year old spec. The advancements in belt materials with the addition of cross linked polymers and NHBR composites in the last 20 years is amazing. Think about it as the same belt from the same manufacturer but with a material spec that is up to date with today's technology..... because thats what it is.
The argument is almost like not wanting to put a full synthetic oil in a rebuilt engine because Porsche never listed it as the spec oil.

evil 944t

Travis, you may know better than I but, I was told by my gear cutter that Gates, Mitsu and Porsche worked together on the tooth profile for our belts.

My gear cutter has been working with Gates for 30 years and the profile is proprietry to the 3 of them. In fact many aftermarket gears are cut as "L" gilmer tooth specs when in fact they are very different than the original profile.

When I made my gear, Gates lent me the hobbing tool for the updated profile that is on your blue belt. They said it has better grip on decel over the original design.

After learning about that, I would have no problem using the new style belt.

Chris White

Example #1 -I don't know if you remember the first synthetic brake fluid (early 80's) - a lot of racers jumped on it because the specs were much better than the standard fluid. The stuff was nothing but trouble, created boiling problems, destroyed some seals and was not a good product - so, to draw a parallel – I would not want to use a ‘new’ synthetic oil on a customer’s engine until I was familiar with it. I don’t worry too much about what Porsche says, I have to stand behind what I do.
Example #2 – New synthetic racing oil by Joe Gibbs – sounds like great stuff but only after seeing the performance advantage would I recommend it to customers. It is very good oil – especially since the quality slide on Mobil 1. I got to see it tested by a circle track engine builder friend of mine (they really are harsh on their engines – dirt track racing for 2-3 nights a week on a dry sumped 650+ hp engine). Porsche still endorses Mobil 1….I don’t except for ‘normal’ street driving
I am not trying to pick on the products – what I am trying to point out is why you will get the ‘not guaranteed’ statements from a good tech. BTW – if a customer wants a guarantee on a timing belt they won’t get it from me unless they replace ALL the belts and rollers and the waterpump. Most belts are destroyed by other faulty components.
Hey Travis – give me a link to the belt info, I’ll buy one a try it out and then I will be happy to say if I ‘endorse’ it or not (most likely will, it sounds like a good product!).
BTW – here is a consumer advice tip – if you are building / buying a performance engine and you feel the need to ask for a guarantee you may have made the wrong choice in builders. I go the great lengths to support my customers and there is a trust built between the customer and the builder. If you want to try and capture ‘trust’ on a piece of paper in the form of a guarantee good luck with that. Remember – it goes both ways – the customer would have to guarantee that the engines does not get over reved, over heated, over boosted, mis timed, mis tuned, abused, raced, yada , yada, yada…any builder that you don’t trust enough to take his/her word will be able to weasel out of any guarantee.

Travis - sflraver

I still subscribe to the fact that 2 people can have a good technical conversation from opposing points of view without it coming to blows, even here on rennlist, so no worries.

The two examples above are of "new" technologies that were untested in the field, which obviously failed, and this is where I completely agree with you. A new technology should be tested before being accepted for use on customer's cars.

The only problem with associating the above examples with the racing timing belt is that this product is not a "new" technology. This technology has evolved over time and, in its current state as a Gates Racing Belt, is being used on similar timing systems connected to highly modified engines that produce far greater HP numbers than the factory ever intended. The Gates Racing Belts did not come out last month, only the adaptation to the 944 configuration.

I would be happy to send you a belt for personal testing. The engines you build are where this type of belt would be needed the most. Just shoot me over a PM with where you would like it sent.

Chris White

[QUOTE=Travis - sflraver;6460266]I still subscribe to the fact that 2 people can have a good technical conversation from opposing points of view without it coming to blows, even here on rennlist, so no worries. [QUOTE]
Yep, it is appreciated! And for the record…I don’t really have an opposing view point – I was replying more to the question about ‘Guarantees” !

I’ll drop you a line – if you can get me a different spec belt I would like to try it out on the 16v twin cam drive – that one will see some higher stresses…!

Perculator00

Question for everyone here:

How critical is it to really have the belt tensioned after driving 1500 miles or so on brand new timing belts?

Chris White

Depends on the quality of the belt...and the quality of the mechanic!

I would check it...but then again it dosen't cost me anything!

Loquat15

Depends on the shop, but generally... If the part fails within a year, the shop will fix it and any damage it may have caused. If a shop installs a customer provided part, they most likely wont stand behind the part thus if it fails... it's all up to the customer.

Loquat15

I changed my belt without using the tool to properly tension it. Guess what? It works just fine... and i do drive the car pretty hard at times.

I've driven it about 15,000mi with no issues. maybe i'll dig in there and check her out but most likely it's fine.