I Just Joined the Motec club. As usual, Help needed
12-17-2008, 11:01 AM
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I Just Joined the Motec club. As usual, Help needed
I just joined the Motec club with my 3.0L track car. In the past I have communicated with both 950NE (bought his old Vitesse setup for another car) and gt37vgt (foolishly offered to help with my Motec questions). Its an M4 with advanced tuning and data logging. It is on a running car, with a few minor problems and some upgrades I'd like to perform.
1. Current injectors are 50 lb/hr high impedence. I am upgrading to 83lb Venom low impedence injectors (made by bosch?). I'm not sure where to start and what sequence of adjustments to apply to Scale the new injectors and imlement the peak and hold settings that I need for the low impedence injectors.
2. The old Bosch LSM-11 is giving some sporadic weird readings. I have just installed an LC1 and would like to know how to interface the analog output to the M4 in place of the existing sensor.
3. I am getting some sync errors. The existing setup uses the flywheel and a Cam sensor. I'd be intersted in seeing how to setup a 60 toothed wheel, both mechanically and the M4 settings.
1. Current injectors are 50 lb/hr high impedence. I am upgrading to 83lb Venom low impedence injectors (made by bosch?). I'm not sure where to start and what sequence of adjustments to apply to Scale the new injectors and imlement the peak and hold settings that I need for the low impedence injectors.
2. The old Bosch LSM-11 is giving some sporadic weird readings. I have just installed an LC1 and would like to know how to interface the analog output to the M4 in place of the existing sensor.
3. I am getting some sync errors. The existing setup uses the flywheel and a Cam sensor. I'd be intersted in seeing how to setup a 60 toothed wheel, both mechanically and the M4 settings.
12-17-2008, 11:44 AM
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1 first try to find a bosch part number and look it up on the Motec data base and hopefully they will be on there with the injector driver set up parameters .
Then i guess start a new tuning file with fuel values of around 60% maybe 65 to be safe of what they were originaly. If both injectors are on there you may find the lag time's and characteristics to make a more educated decistion on how to tune them .
2. I'm still learning the O2 stuff myself but what i can tell you is that LSM II's don't last that long so probably needs replacing also there are different kind of O2 controllers and If the LC1 is not a real LSM U4 controller its not realy worth doing
you can put an LSU 4 sensor on LSII controller so if the unit takes both it may not be the real deal .
3.The sync error i think can happen for a number of reasons like interference the sync and ref merging due to cam belt play and too many ref teeth .
there are various arming trigger and filter piont's to play with but you realy should scope the trigger signal first .
Why 60 ?
Then i guess start a new tuning file with fuel values of around 60% maybe 65 to be safe of what they were originaly. If both injectors are on there you may find the lag time's and characteristics to make a more educated decistion on how to tune them .
2. I'm still learning the O2 stuff myself but what i can tell you is that LSM II's don't last that long so probably needs replacing also there are different kind of O2 controllers and If the LC1 is not a real LSM U4 controller its not realy worth doing
you can put an LSU 4 sensor on LSII controller so if the unit takes both it may not be the real deal .
3.The sync error i think can happen for a number of reasons like interference the sync and ref merging due to cam belt play and too many ref teeth .
there are various arming trigger and filter piont's to play with but you realy should scope the trigger signal first .
Why 60 ?
12-17-2008, 11:49 AM
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John, since I already know the system on your car, let's see if I can set you in the correct direction. (many things might have changed over the years software & hardware so double check).
- To handle a different injector size, you need to rescale the fuel maps by the % difference. If you alter the fuel pressure, the same applies. When changing injectors, there are a few other variables to set as well (injector dead time??).
- The Ref & Sync errors are caused by reading the starter ring (the # of teeth is not compatible with Motec). There is (or was) a 60-2 wheel behind the crank pulley. It's hidden where you cannot see it unless you search for it, behind the plastic cover. A bracket for a pickup sensor should be there as well. You should convert to the 60-2 trigger setup.
- To handle a different injector size, you need to rescale the fuel maps by the % difference. If you alter the fuel pressure, the same applies. When changing injectors, there are a few other variables to set as well (injector dead time??).
- The Ref & Sync errors are caused by reading the starter ring (the # of teeth is not compatible with Motec). There is (or was) a 60-2 wheel behind the crank pulley. It's hidden where you cannot see it unless you search for it, behind the plastic cover. A bracket for a pickup sensor should be there as well. You should convert to the 60-2 trigger setup.
12-17-2008, 11:58 AM
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2... you mean analog input ? ......
well as i understand it you can set up a correction table with the input so for each voltage reading you can set a given fuel correction in % and ignition if you like .and boost
but I'm not sure if your current O2 input is interchangeable with this analog input .
so what I'm saying is unless your upgrading to proper LSU4 controller and its not costing you an input its kind of not worth doing .
these analog inputs and correction tables can be used for all kinds of good stuff like like a correction table that turns you down when you trans temp is to low or to high or a dash mounted fuel quality switch .
also it could be used to refine the anti lag with a map sensor hooked up to the exhaust side
well as i understand it you can set up a correction table with the input so for each voltage reading you can set a given fuel correction in % and ignition if you like .and boost
but I'm not sure if your current O2 input is interchangeable with this analog input .
so what I'm saying is unless your upgrading to proper LSU4 controller and its not costing you an input its kind of not worth doing .
these analog inputs and correction tables can be used for all kinds of good stuff like like a correction table that turns you down when you trans temp is to low or to high or a dash mounted fuel quality switch .
also it could be used to refine the anti lag with a map sensor hooked up to the exhaust side
12-17-2008, 12:41 PM
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John: I just checked the car and I am correct. There is no 60-2 Wheel currently being used, but there are cam and flywheel sensors. I will scope the output and see how dirty it is. The following is from the Main setup screen:
Ref Sensor type=1
Ref Sync Mode=12
Crank Ref Teeth=132
Tooth Ratio=65
Crank Position Index=221.5
Was the 60-2 ever used? I don't see any wires leading from the pulley area, but aI haven't pulled the plastic belt cover yet.
RE the O2 sensor: The LC-1 uses a uses an LSU4 sensor and is pretty flexible in terms of scaling its analog outputs. I am pretty familiar with these units and have used the successfully for tuning and logging. According to the Motec tuning seminar, you can use an analog input and bypass the Lambda option (on the Motec) completely. What I haven't found are directions for doing so.
I am just getting started and was wondering if Motec offers a simple way of scaling the fuel maps without re-entering all the numbers in the Maps. I know this is a pretty basic question, that I should know the answer to, but I haven't found out how to do it so far. A step by step would be very useful.
Ref Sensor type=1
Ref Sync Mode=12
Crank Ref Teeth=132
Tooth Ratio=65
Crank Position Index=221.5
Was the 60-2 ever used? I don't see any wires leading from the pulley area, but aI haven't pulled the plastic belt cover yet.
RE the O2 sensor: The LC-1 uses a uses an LSU4 sensor and is pretty flexible in terms of scaling its analog outputs. I am pretty familiar with these units and have used the successfully for tuning and logging. According to the Motec tuning seminar, you can use an analog input and bypass the Lambda option (on the Motec) completely. What I haven't found are directions for doing so.
I am just getting started and was wondering if Motec offers a simple way of scaling the fuel maps without re-entering all the numbers in the Maps. I know this is a pretty basic question, that I should know the answer to, but I haven't found out how to do it so far. A step by step would be very useful.
12-17-2008, 01:03 PM
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wel there is definatly blanket trim thing in there some where. as i said just becuse it as an LSU sensor doesn't make it an LSU controller . can it use a LSII? yeh you can bypass the lamda but why ?
you do understand that the timing is done from the reference tooth after the syc tooth ?
so if there is too many teeth and the cam advances or retards due to the belt you may pick up the rong ref tooth and therefor your ignition timing can be momentarily 1 tooth out .
the missing tooth is to give the ECU a secondary reference of were to start the sequence to over come this but will less teeth its not nesisary
the 132 teeth were never designed for triggering they are "speed"sensors I'm pretty sure the triggers were the next ones along
you do understand that the timing is done from the reference tooth after the syc tooth ?
so if there is too many teeth and the cam advances or retards due to the belt you may pick up the rong ref tooth and therefor your ignition timing can be momentarily 1 tooth out .
the missing tooth is to give the ECU a secondary reference of were to start the sequence to over come this but will less teeth its not nesisary
the 132 teeth were never designed for triggering they are "speed"sensors I'm pretty sure the triggers were the next ones along
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12-17-2008, 01:05 PM
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John, the ref/sync errors are caused by the 132 teeth (you cannot devide 360 by 132; 360/132=2.727 which Motec does not like). The 60-2 wheel + sensor bracket were installed, but as you know many hands been there over the many years....
12-17-2008, 01:24 PM
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John, That's what I expecteed. The car is actually running pretty well despite the Ref and Sync Errors, but I do think that a 60-2 is probably a better way to go. The tach also seems to be reading a little high, which might be related.
Re the Injector upgrade, I'll keep looking for a way to do at least the initial tune simply. Its not just that I'm lazy (which I am), but making a lot of individual entries leaves a lot of room for screw-ups.
Re: the O2 sensor, The LC-1 is an LSU4 controller, and to my understanding, you are not bypassing the lambda control, just using one of the analog inputs, to bypass the built-in M4 controller (which only works with the LM11 and the NTK O2 sensors). I'll keep digging and post a solution, when and If I find one.
Re the Injector upgrade, I'll keep looking for a way to do at least the initial tune simply. Its not just that I'm lazy (which I am), but making a lot of individual entries leaves a lot of room for screw-ups.
Re: the O2 sensor, The LC-1 is an LSU4 controller, and to my understanding, you are not bypassing the lambda control, just using one of the analog inputs, to bypass the built-in M4 controller (which only works with the LM11 and the NTK O2 sensors). I'll keep digging and post a solution, when and If I find one.
12-17-2008, 01:54 PM
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Re injector scaling, it looks as if the variable IJPU will give me what I want. From the DOS help screen "The base injector pulse width is calculated by multiplying the number from the fuel table (as a percentage) by the setup parameter IJPU" then it goes on to say that all the other correction percenbtages are applied. I'll give this a try, after I find out about dead time and peak/hold values.
It looks as if my current vallue is 13 for 50lb injectors, so I guess it should be 50/83*13 or 7.8, (Nearest value is 8). If ther's anything wrong with this logic please let me know before I pull the trigger.
It looks as if my current vallue is 13 for 50lb injectors, so I guess it should be 50/83*13 or 7.8, (Nearest value is 8). If ther's anything wrong with this logic please let me know before I pull the trigger.
12-17-2008, 08:44 PM
#12
Drifting
FWIW I have seen a lot of the old DOS equipped engines with persistant sync errors and there not be a problem. Supposedly it's a software issues but don't quote me on that.
Matter of fact I don't remember a single DOS system not have sync errors. They all ran perfect with the error.
Matter of fact I don't remember a single DOS system not have sync errors. They all ran perfect with the error.
12-17-2008, 09:39 PM
#13
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FWIW I have seen a lot of the old DOS equipped engines with persistant sync errors and there not be a problem. Supposedly it's a software issues but don't quote me on that.
Matter of fact I don't remember a single DOS system not have sync errors. They all ran perfect with the error.
Matter of fact I don't remember a single DOS system not have sync errors. They all ran perfect with the error.
Some sync errors are acceptable , if the numbers continuously ramp then you have a problem and it will never run correctly. If they ramp at the beginning then stop and stabilizes then you will not have any running issues.
12-17-2008, 09:39 PM
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Chris, thanks for the input. It makes me feel a little better about the setup in the car. The current Bosch LSM-11 sensor appears to be shot. It takes over four minutes to show a signal (the M4 shows "cold" in the lambda output until it kicks in). Its also reading a lot leaner than the LM-1 LSU-4 I've installed in another bung. I found a couple of references on connecting an LM-1 or LC-1 to the M4 in this site EFI101 http://efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.ph...&highlight=lc1 I think I'll give it a try tomorrow. If anyone on the forum has actually done this instructions will be greatly appreciated
12-17-2008, 09:48 PM
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wel there is definatly blanket trim thing in there some where. as i said just becuse it as an LSU sensor doesn't make it an LSU controller . can it use a LSII? yeh you can bypass the lamda but why ?
you do understand that the timing is done from the reference tooth after the syc tooth ?
so if there is too many teeth and the cam advances or retards due to the belt you may pick up the rong ref tooth and therefor your ignition timing can be momentarily 1 tooth out .
the missing tooth is to give the ECU a secondary reference of were to start the sequence to over come this but will less teeth its not nesisary
the 132 teeth were never designed for triggering they are "speed"sensors I'm pretty sure the triggers were the next ones along
you do understand that the timing is done from the reference tooth after the syc tooth ?
so if there is too many teeth and the cam advances or retards due to the belt you may pick up the rong ref tooth and therefor your ignition timing can be momentarily 1 tooth out .
the missing tooth is to give the ECU a secondary reference of were to start the sequence to over come this but will less teeth its not nesisary
the 132 teeth were never designed for triggering they are "speed"sensors I'm pretty sure the triggers were the next ones along
The problem is the cam sync, this setup will not work without the cam sync....