Hey Pieter,

I'm running Moton Club Sports and love them. They're 2-way adjustable and you don't have to be a suspension engineer to dial them in (just smarter than Nader). ;-)
If all of the tracks you run on are similar in consistency (i.e. surface smoothness) you could get by w/ non-adjustable Bilsteins assuming they are valved correctly. The bump and rebound adjustability is really useful for adapting to surface variations between tracks.

If you go nitrogen charged, budget a couple hundred dollars for a shock gauge, small tank, and regulator.

I went all-out on my suspension when I redid mine: RE sphericals and hard mounts in the rear, Charlie arms in front, Moton club sports, Tarett sways, minimal rate t-bars w/ coilovers. My springs are pretty stiff so it handles wonderfully on the track. I did all the work myself except for milling and installing the Delrin bushings (and alignment, of course).

 

Being smarter than me is not something to brag about

Depape,

I have missed if your car is 951 or 951S. You have to be a very talented driver to make a 951 competative in class.

I bought Bilstein Sport Cups (Lindsey has both version) and because I deleted the t/b rate, I converted the rears to spherical bearing to use with RE lower bolt mounts for increased strength. If you go with Bilstein and milled t/b, I recommend that you send the shocks to Bilstein in CA (preferably via Joe Stimola) to have them converted and custom valved to your needs. Figure about $500-700.

Alternatively, leave the t/b in and add coilover as helpers. The problem is that everytime you decide to change ride height or corner balance, you probably have to re-index t/b. The plus is that you can set the ride height and forget it. BTW, I still recommend custom valving of shocks. Spring rate should be 600lbslbs minimum. I know people who run as high as 1000lbs. I am running 600 F - 575 R and I think it is too soft. I am considering custom valving mine for 750F and 700R. With Bilstein, you need adjustable sways. I would buy Tarret if I had to do it again. I have Welts, but they are very heavy.

Add RE or ER solid bushings for all F and R suspension points and solid motor or trans mount (Lindsey). In addition you need to go with aftermarket a-arm. I bought Blazik arms and am very happy with them. There are others and all run about $1700 now. I think KLA sell front solid upper struts mounts. Bacuse you can not run camber plate in PCA stock classes I went this route to save money compared with adjustable camber plate that has to be bolted in stock position (terminology?)

Do not forget a full cage. Go with NASCAR door bars on both sides that allows you to gut the doors and pull a lot of weight out.

 

Good advice from Nader. Maybe he's smarter than he leads on.. ;-)

I have the KLA strut tops as well. No sense buying more expensive camber plates when you can't use the adjustability.

A 951 (non-S) can be a competitive E prepared car if you put in a good DME chip and big brakes, but aren't the strongest F car.

My spring rates are similar to what Nader is contemplating, though my rear is stiffer than the front. I think 1,000# is too high unless the shocks really need something so stiff (I've heard Koni race shocks need stiff springs). A local racer upgraded to 1000# all around w/ revalved Koni's and he lost cornering grip as his car would skip along the surface even on smooth turns like at VIR.

If you're going to go through the hassle of buying Bilsteins and then having them custom valved, just go for adjustable shocks like Motons. In the end it's the same $$ and you have the adjustability. Moton can valve them for whatever rates you want when they assemble them. I told Moton what car, weight, and springs I intended to run and their recommended valving is spot on.

Also, budget some $$ for a good set of light, forged wheels. It's not something you have to have initially but should contemplate down the road.

 

I'll be running a 951S ('89),

Well it looks like I miss read the rules about camber plates. Which is fine with me... just one thing I don't need to spend money on.

Jerome,
Where'd you get the motons? how are they compared to ledas (pricewise?)
I'd really just like to get the best Shock for the money and then just spend the rest on Bushings/control arms.

Nadar,
Any more detials on milling out the Tbar? how, what, where, who???
Who's ER? ......I saw the RE lower bolts, I guess I'll go the milled out approach once I hear more detials .

O and I havn't forgoten about the cage. The first thing im going to do is cage, tow hooks, seats, saftey. Then I can "legaly" race. Won't be competitive, but at least I can get out there.


How competitve is the "S" in E class??

 

Hey Pieter,

The S can be a front-running car in E if it is well-prepped and well-driven.

Camber plates are legal, but the rule states "pickup points must be as from the factory." Meaning the strut top must be in the same place and the camber plate must be drilled and pinned to locate the strut top in the original position. This removes the benefit of the camber plate (except for having a rigid upper mount). The KLA unit has the rigid upper mount without the adjustability and costs a few hundred $$ less.

For the t-bars, you can have someone shave/mill the full length so they are very thin, but this is very expensive as the stuff apparently doesn't mill well. I know others who have ground the splines off the end so they rotate freely in the housings. Not sure what other methods are available to change the spring rate.

I bought my Motons through Eurowerks near Charlotte (Keith Walters posts here occasionally). At the time the pricing was a little more than Leda's, but w/ Leda's (parent corp) financial trouble and reputation for needing frequent rebuilds, I felt more comfortable w/ the Motons (and have been happy since).

The club sports use a different size bottom rod end than the Leda's so you don't need the Racer's Edge (RE) lower shock mount if you use the Motons. A longer factory-sized bolt will do. I found some grade 10.9 longer bolts and threaded them a little more. People have said that the lower shock bolt can break but mine have been fine for 2 years. I made a bunch extra just in case, but my original ones are still straight (and Nader can confirm that they take frequent off-road excursions and curb hops). W/ the Motons, you will need to space the bottom out slightly to keep the hat from rubbing on the banana arm (a couple thick washers will do).

RE (Racer's Edge) makes a lot of 944-specific racing parts. Karl Poeltl (the owner/engineer) is also an accomplished PCA racer (basically he would win anything he entered w/ his F-class S2). Check them out at http://www.racersedge-inc.com/
I have his rear bushing and spherical bearing kit and billet hubs and his products are top notch.

I ran my first race season on my stock suspension and had loads of fun. You can always find someone to race with though you'll likely be near the back of the pack on a stock suspension. Even on a stock suspension, though, the education in learning to race is the same. Trust me, there's a big leap from DEs to racing...

 

Karl Potle (Racer's Edge) sells the milled t/b. Basically, they are stock t/b that have been milled (cut down) between the splins. I think they cost around $250 with core exchange. In the spirit of the rules, you have t/b compared with t/b that have grinded splins. BTW, IMO it is stupid to complain about someone who has grinded the ends of t/b or for the scruits to get hung up on this. It is a cheaper way to get 0 rate t/b.

Many 944 series guys use LEDA because Karl has provided good service and the struts function well, but at $4K for double adjustable exterenal reservior. I do not think that they are any cheaper than Moton et al. Send Skip Wolfe (here on RL) a PM. A friend of his had a set of LEDA's for sale. I need to have them re-valved which did not make the math right vs new.

ER is Elephant Racing. I have some of ER bushings on my car.

951S should be competative in E class. At least until Boxter S gets fully developed.

 

Im probly going to give LR, Paragon, & Racer's Edge a call sometime later in the week.
The Motons and Ledas sound awsome, but I just can't see myself spending that much. But I'll probly end up getting them on an impulse anyway. I paid 7,000 for my 951s with a perfect interior, 1 owner car. So the money I saved on that deal I'll end up spending on Suspension.

Ok, as for the Tbars, you'r pretty much making them useless and just putting them there as "decoration" to satisfy the rules ?
So could I just Drill out the connections so they would be useless ? ... (Im guessing thats what you mean by Grinding out the ends )

Nader,
The guy whos selling the used Ledas.. Did you say they needed to be revalved? I might just wait and see if i can buy any good used suspension.
O and on LR site I saw JIC ? ?There is also an ad in the classifieds.

Thanks again guys.

 

Skip is on the board. IIRC, the LEDAa are about 1 year old. However, I think they come with lower rate springs that I want to use. I would get them re-valved for 700-800 lbs spring, but not if I wanted to run the current springs. I think custom valving to match the spring/car weight/etc. is essential.

 

Truthfully how much of a diffrence will the Moton/Ledas make over the Bilstien escourt cups w/ similar spring rates and valving?!?

 

I sent you an email regarding the Ledas. As Nader said they were setup for front spring rates in the 400 - 550 range, any higher and you may need to have them revalved. I sent you the valving specs, and I would recommend you contact Karl on whether you should get the revalved given your setup.

Go with either Racers Edge or Elephant Racing bushings - I like the ER sping plate and trailing arm bushing better than the RE version. Also I run Tarrett sways and they are the way to go. Pretty spendy but the best design and weight on the market.

Not sure what you are doing for wheels, but keep your eyes open for some light weight 17" wheels - they make a significant difference and I believe you can run 8-1/2 & 10 x 17 in Stock PCA, but I would double check that. I ran Fikses for the past couple years and was very happy with them. Recently switch to BBS motorsports for the widebody setup and they are the ultimate, but tougher to find at a good deal. CCW also makes a reasonavle priced ($2,100 new) set of forged track wheels which are nice, but you should be able to find something new from on of the good manufacturers in the $1,500 - $1,800 range if your are patient, and watch the Rennlist classifieds like a hawk - good deals don't last long.

Good luck.

 

They will make a diffence if you know how to set them up, and your driving ability is advanced enough to take advatage of them.

 

Front-runner vs. mid-pack.

While I don't have any direct experience (I've never had the Bilsteins), I spoke to one racer who upgraded from Bilsteins to a 2-way adjustable shock (can't remember the brand) and he said the seconds 'melted away' as he dialed them in. My guess is they're worth 0.5 - 1 second/lap, possibly more on a rougher track.

As I said, for varying track surfaces, the adjustables are beneficial. If you're setting your car up for one particular track, they can both be identical assuming you get the Bilstein valving just right.

 

HAHA- I have to agree.
Bilsteins were made to follow the F1 tracks.
So they are not the best for bumpy road courses, to say the least.

I have almost had my cranium put through my roof a couple times on some bumps, and I have LOWER valving and spring rates.

They do make the car fun,though.

 

Skip did you get my email?
My email is acting funny...

 

Got it and sent you a return email this morning.