3.0L engine sound: 16v vs. 8v
12-07-2007, 07:20 PM
#31
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Hey
Everything depends how far you want to go with it.. I think you could even use stock 968 exhaust but If id have to do a budget project witch have around 330hp 550nm torque this how I would do it.
Stock 968 engine
Cometic head-gasket (3.2mm like I had)
951 injectors
951 flywheel 930 pressure plate, 968 clutch disck
951 rpm sensors
3bar FPR
951 crossover pipe welded to 968 exhaust manifold + 3" downpipe from lindsey + custom middle pipe to make it work with stock 968 exhaust. IT will be nice and quiet. And i think it should be good for moddest 1.2-1.4 bar boost and 320 whp..
951 engine mount (what holds the turbo) + the oli return from turbo to oil-pan. Balance chaft cover can be modified by drilling the hole into it
951 K26-8 or depending on the budget K27-8 turbo
Tial 40mm wastegate with manual boost control
951 motronic KLR-DME + airflowmeter+ 951 TB + sensor(dont know it thats needed) + custom chip for your application.
951 intercooler with modified end tank on the cooler feeding side (for flow reason) + custom piping and diverter valve instead of BOV because you are going to run MAF not map sensor..
Custom intake manifold or mix-mach from 951 and 968 manifold by using the 968 flange and 951 intake design (look www.944968.com)
If you can then change conrods to 951 RARST CON.rods as a safety, extra insurance
I think depending on the turbo if K26-8 is good for 304 whp (acc lindsey site) then its fore sure good more then that in 16v application. I am quessing + 20-30 whp and huge amount of torque.
If you need to control variocam then i think you can purchase standalone variocam controller from vitesse.
Markus
Everything depends how far you want to go with it.. I think you could even use stock 968 exhaust but If id have to do a budget project witch have around 330hp 550nm torque this how I would do it.
Stock 968 engine
Cometic head-gasket (3.2mm like I had)
951 injectors
951 flywheel 930 pressure plate, 968 clutch disck
951 rpm sensors
3bar FPR
951 crossover pipe welded to 968 exhaust manifold + 3" downpipe from lindsey + custom middle pipe to make it work with stock 968 exhaust. IT will be nice and quiet. And i think it should be good for moddest 1.2-1.4 bar boost and 320 whp..
951 engine mount (what holds the turbo) + the oli return from turbo to oil-pan. Balance chaft cover can be modified by drilling the hole into it
951 K26-8 or depending on the budget K27-8 turbo
Tial 40mm wastegate with manual boost control
951 motronic KLR-DME + airflowmeter+ 951 TB + sensor(dont know it thats needed) + custom chip for your application.
951 intercooler with modified end tank on the cooler feeding side (for flow reason) + custom piping and diverter valve instead of BOV because you are going to run MAF not map sensor..
Custom intake manifold or mix-mach from 951 and 968 manifold by using the 968 flange and 951 intake design (look www.944968.com)
If you can then change conrods to 951 RARST CON.rods as a safety, extra insurance
I think depending on the turbo if K26-8 is good for 304 whp (acc lindsey site) then its fore sure good more then that in 16v application. I am quessing + 20-30 whp and huge amount of torque.
If you need to control variocam then i think you can purchase standalone variocam controller from vitesse.
Markus
I think this will get you more tunability for the same (or less) money.
12-07-2007, 08:06 PM
#32
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This one is just revving in the driveway.........not that great
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZDEEDMBqhqQ
This one is at Laguna Seca and the wind noise kinda drowns out the exhaust but you can hear it in some places.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FifrmixezY
Last edited by Andial951; 12-07-2007 at 10:49 PM.
12-07-2007, 08:37 PM
#33
Ok, let me be the ***hole here. Who cares what it sounds like, you're doing a performance build, if it goes like stink and you dont like the sound, add a few mufflers and you'll never have to worry about hearing it.
12-08-2007, 02:10 AM
#34
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Mike, that's not a a-hole comment, it brings up a good point. While this is a performance build, high HP isn't the main goal here for me. I just want to end up with a car that is pleasing to all the senses and that I can take pride in having built myself. And the sound of the car has always been a key point for me so I've been considering that in my deciding between 8v and 16v..
12-08-2007, 03:21 AM
#36
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v8 conversion is well beyond my budget, and a little more work than I'm willing to do. Even if I had bags of gold to spend, v8 conversions are even more complicated than the craziest 3.0L turbo.
I might need to keep buying mufflers until I finally find one I'll be satisfied to settle on.
I might need to keep buying mufflers until I finally find one I'll be satisfied to settle on.
12-09-2007, 06:04 AM
#37
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I believe the answer here is one of those ebay kits where you stick the electric vacuum blower in the engine bay. Then you get to keep your exhaust sound and you make more power. lol
12-09-2007, 06:39 AM
#38
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12-09-2007, 06:54 AM
#39
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well the forge tooling to make the inside of the piston is hand finished in a similar way by a toolmaker so why the hell not ????
and the fly cutter that you use to cut reliefs in the mill is usally hand ground.
use modeling clay to guide you . then CC are the piston tops in the block . a thck grease will keep the rigs sealed .
and the fly cutter that you use to cut reliefs in the mill is usally hand ground.
use modeling clay to guide you . then CC are the piston tops in the block . a thck grease will keep the rigs sealed .
12-09-2007, 11:02 AM
#40
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I am not knocking anyone trying to do the job on a budget. When I started my build I had a 2.7 engine i bought for £125 ($250) and a 3.0 litre crank which I paid £150 ($300) I then bought a set of pistons for $300 and spent £800 getting my block prepared. Since then the cost has escalated with me changing pistons and ring combo's, turbos intakes injectors DME Chips etc get teh drift?
Its not what your initial plans are, it is where the cost ends with the completed job and I do not think that you can get there for $3000 with somebody else doing the work
Good Luck! I am watching this thread with interest as I have a 968 CS I will eventually turbo
Its not what your initial plans are, it is where the cost ends with the completed job and I do not think that you can get there for $3000 with somebody else doing the work
Good Luck! I am watching this thread with interest as I have a 968 CS I will eventually turbo
12-09-2007, 08:07 PM
#41
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If you want to turbo your 968, you perform the labor, limit your performance expectations AND take a slight risk, it can be done for $3500. Would it be the best or ideal setup? No. Would it work with limited performance? Yes. I don't recommend this approach, however one approach can be:
- Lower the CR with a headgasket. $200-300 in parts/gaskets etc.
- Get a 951 X-over, WG, left engine mount, and K26/8 turbo. All used should be around $500-1000
- Various exhaust mix & match... $300-500?
- Fabricate a intake manifold to fit (mix & match 968 + 951). If you can do it yourself $300
- A PiggyBack to alter the fuel, timing and to control the variocam $650
- If you need larger injectors, more than likely you will need a custom chip more $$$
The risk and the limitations:
- You might max out the 968 MAF, depending on how much boost you run
- The rods will be a limiting factor so keep the power & rpm to a reasonable level
- You must be able to do all of the work yourself, fabrication and tuning.
It can be done, the results will not be the best, lots of time is needed, a fairly good risk factor.
- Lower the CR with a headgasket. $200-300 in parts/gaskets etc.
- Get a 951 X-over, WG, left engine mount, and K26/8 turbo. All used should be around $500-1000
- Various exhaust mix & match... $300-500?
- Fabricate a intake manifold to fit (mix & match 968 + 951). If you can do it yourself $300
- A PiggyBack to alter the fuel, timing and to control the variocam $650
- If you need larger injectors, more than likely you will need a custom chip more $$$
The risk and the limitations:
- You might max out the 968 MAF, depending on how much boost you run
- The rods will be a limiting factor so keep the power & rpm to a reasonable level
- You must be able to do all of the work yourself, fabrication and tuning.
It can be done, the results will not be the best, lots of time is needed, a fairly good risk factor.
12-09-2007, 10:20 PM
#42
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I gotta thank everyone for the input and help. With all the info out there I was afraid to ask but I love getting this feedback.
Will I do the work myself? Of course! Not to save money. The whole point of doing this conversion is to give me another project to entertain and challenge me, so it wouldn't make any sense to have it done by someone else.
The dremmel... I know there will be an issue with using an 8v head and 16v pistons. Specifically, the valve reliefs. I thought if I gently round off the sharp edges on the 4 valve reliefs it will reduce the tendency for hotspots there. Although I am curious why this is even an issue at all. Why are there no hotspots there with the proper 16v head?
the budget... John, I will of course have limited performance expectations. Well, I'm sure it seems like limitation to you in your profession, but to me, 300hp or more is fantastic. I know with horsepower comes horseresponsibility, and while I know how fun it can be to have insane power, I don't have the funds for it, and I will be more than happy with my power goal. This is my daily driver after all.
Will I do the work myself? Of course! Not to save money. The whole point of doing this conversion is to give me another project to entertain and challenge me, so it wouldn't make any sense to have it done by someone else.
The dremmel... I know there will be an issue with using an 8v head and 16v pistons. Specifically, the valve reliefs. I thought if I gently round off the sharp edges on the 4 valve reliefs it will reduce the tendency for hotspots there. Although I am curious why this is even an issue at all. Why are there no hotspots there with the proper 16v head?
the budget... John, I will of course have limited performance expectations. Well, I'm sure it seems like limitation to you in your profession, but to me, 300hp or more is fantastic. I know with horsepower comes horseresponsibility, and while I know how fun it can be to have insane power, I don't have the funds for it, and I will be more than happy with my power goal. This is my daily driver after all.
12-19-2007, 07:08 PM
#43
Racer
Having gone down this path I can understand the satisfaction of doing it yourself and of course its a huge amount cheaper too.
If your only after 300+ I dont understand why you would swap to a 8v head, use the stock 16v head, its very detonation resitant & flows much more.
The only complexity is to make the inlet manifold and if you are handy its not too hard.
The key though is be able to monitor whats happening re AFR and timing, whether its a piggy back or full EMS - if you dont monitor and tune safe it may become very expensive!!
rgds
mike
p.s my conversion cost about $4,500 all up, standalone EMS, manifold, 55lbs, crossover, Tial 44, T04B -60-1hifi, intercooler, hardpipes, etc
If your only after 300+ I dont understand why you would swap to a 8v head, use the stock 16v head, its very detonation resitant & flows much more.
The only complexity is to make the inlet manifold and if you are handy its not too hard.
The key though is be able to monitor whats happening re AFR and timing, whether its a piggy back or full EMS - if you dont monitor and tune safe it may become very expensive!!
rgds
mike
p.s my conversion cost about $4,500 all up, standalone EMS, manifold, 55lbs, crossover, Tial 44, T04B -60-1hifi, intercooler, hardpipes, etc
12-19-2007, 10:27 PM
#44
If you really want to go ballsy and cheap, use stock 16v headers, 951 xover, 951 mount, turbo of choice, and no intercooler and ramping rate meth with a stock ECU. It can be done reliably to a degree and make nice power, but I cant recommend it without feeling bad.
12-20-2007, 06:07 AM
#45
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Having gone down this path I can understand the satisfaction of doing it yourself and of course its a huge amount cheaper too.
If your only after 300+ I dont understand why you would swap to a 8v head, use the stock 16v head, its very detonation resitant & flows much more.
The only complexity is to make the inlet manifold and if you are handy its not too hard.
The key though is be able to monitor whats happening re AFR and timing, whether its a piggy back or full EMS - if you dont monitor and tune safe it may become very expensive!!
rgds
mike
p.s my conversion cost about $4,500 all up, standalone EMS, manifold, 55lbs, crossover, Tial 44, T04B -60-1hifi, intercooler, hardpipes, etc
If your only after 300+ I dont understand why you would swap to a 8v head, use the stock 16v head, its very detonation resitant & flows much more.
The only complexity is to make the inlet manifold and if you are handy its not too hard.
The key though is be able to monitor whats happening re AFR and timing, whether its a piggy back or full EMS - if you dont monitor and tune safe it may become very expensive!!
rgds
mike
p.s my conversion cost about $4,500 all up, standalone EMS, manifold, 55lbs, crossover, Tial 44, T04B -60-1hifi, intercooler, hardpipes, etc
I have no experience tuning engines and I don't know anything about using EMSs. I just feel using an EMS is over my head, and I didn't want this to be my first attempt. Also, it adds to the cost. Though I haven't completely figured out what I want to do as far as tuning the 8v 3.0L turbo, I'm hoping to get Russell's maxtronic working and figure out how to use that.
I had a convo with a couple local 968ers about my planned turbo conversion. One races a n/a 968, and one has experience blowing hondas with high CR. They seemed to agree the best course of action would be for me to use the stock everything, 951 mount, custom intake, custom Xover, custom FMIC, and limit boost to well under 1 bar. Basically what Mikes3.0cabturbo has done. I also am not sure if I want to mess with water injection or anything.
One thing to remember is that I need to have it LOOK smog-legal. Luckily nobody knows wtf belongs in the 968, so I just need the motor to look stock. I've yet to see a custom 16v turbo manifold that really looked stock - the welding has to be super clean, then probably bead-blasted and powder coated, and all that adds to the cost. Then customized headers might catch someone's eye. Of course the FMIC would look totally out of place so I'll struggle with that, or just end up using the 951 IC and relocating my 968's hood latches. I still have to figure out if I am using a 951 airbox or not. Airbox on a 3.0L turbo... shudder...