Skip Wolfe

I'm not sure why I am even letting myself get sucked into this but what the heck, here it goes.....what sort of businessman are you? Do you own you own business? Are you responsible for pricing new products - product mangement, engineering, sales, etc?

Also for the most part cost plus pricing is the least profitable way to go - market pricing is the way to maximize profit and you need to understand that these vendors are here to maximize profit not do this for fun or the benifit of the 944 community, etc. If they were doing that it would be a hobby not a business.

Out of curiosity, what do you think would be an aceptable gross margin for a vendor? 20%? 30%? 50%? (BTW, the answer for this is the same no matter what business)

Also, any vendor that does not fingure in an accurate costs - composite labor cost + benis + landloard based costs (rent, utilities, etc) + machine time (thinking that you can't take the cost of the machine intopa account is a major error - if it is your "uncles" machine you have acces to for free, that is one thing but if you are buy machines for your business it is all part of the cost that need to be factores in) + and the list goes on.

I understand where you a coming from - I hate to pay some of these prices as well - but you need to deal with the reality that venodrs are not going to be as cheap as you want, and if you want cheaper parts then you need to start networking. Find the buddy with acces to a machine shop, and the engineer buddy who can draw up some parts, etc. Hell, that is the only way I can afford to do this, is by networking with all the other gearheads in the area. For instance, I went in with three other guys on a set of Longacre coner balancing scales, because I hated paying shop corner balance an alignment rates. So we got a set of $1800 scales used off of ebay after looking for six months for $1,200 - split 4 ways was only $300. Then we offered a 5th buddy use of the scales anytime he wants if he would level out his 4-post lift and let us use it. Then we went in on a camber gauge and a set of Smart Strings. $500 investment on my part = lifetime free alignments on the track car - payback in less than two alignment/corner balances.

So you need to look at the big picture here and bot get upset or offended when folks who have experience with this stuff tell you to get real.

evil 944t

[QUOTE=ryanm6100;4836380]Group Buy?QUOTE]


Thats your answer, buy in numbers and vendors will give out discounts. It beats building 10 to get the cost down and have 9 sit on the shelf for 3 years because some people still think its priced to high.

bscpanther

Ok Ok. Good tag team effort here. At least now you guys are bringing up valuable points in a reasonable manner. I think it's its mostly irrelevant smoke but that's my opinion. All of this information is subjective so I don't see this going anywhere no matter what I say. In fairness I think those of you being so critical need to reread what this thread is really about, or at least what I wanted it to be about. You guys make it sound like I have somehow threatened individuals or groups by posing a very simple question. Or at worst I implied that similar products could be made for less. I didn't realize it was such an offense. WOW, I can't believe some of you guys can't even work with the idea. You can write pages on why it's immpossible but I'm not buying it. Before hand I clearly stated I could be wrong just to cover my butt, but no room for that here. Another valid point is to note which direction critics have led this converstation, all intake and no down pipe. I suppose it would make a lot harder of an arguement. The worst part is I think threads like this give a bad impression to the "community" or "brotherhood" or whatever you want to call it. You guys make one think twice before asking any questions around here that you don't like. But maybe that's what you're going for.

Skip Wolfe

Find a local hotrod shop and see if they will fab up a 3" downpipe for you during some downtime over the winter. That is the only way it is going to happen cheaper. As far as the intake, unless you make it yourself, or find a buddy who will make one for you, you are stuck with what the vendor pricing is currently at. You can say that your not buying the basic businesss pricing principles that are being laid out, but just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they are going to change. Vendors charge what the market will bear. If you don't like their prices - don't buy them. If enough people don't buy them they will either lower their prices are stop making them depending on the cost model. None of them are going to lower their price because you have called them out and told them they are too expensive.

theedge

Wow thats great, so you assume all of us have uncles who are CNC programmers and have a mill? One of mine is an industrial electrician, that means evil is getting ripped off paying for a new 220V wiring run in his shop right?

hosrom_951

I think you guys are confusing a lot of things..........

To make a long story short, you get what you pay for. It is like comparing the all might Bugatti Veryon with a Skyline/Supra with the same power. Which one would last 20+ years before seeing a rebuild?

Above is probably the clearest example i can show you the difference, so lets not change topics and start talking about those models above

PS: Quality parts are always more rewarding than something that "just get's the job done".

lart951

The supra would probably outlive the bugatti, right. Man I love your examples they are so clear.

theedge

No one here is against questions we dont like. The issue arises when someone comes in and says "X SHOULD BE LIKE THIS". Everyone here has tried to get cheaper parts made, be it an IC, intake, DP, exhaust, ABC and XYZ. Theres multiple threads with this exact discussion. The reality is that 944s/951s are a small market, and the performance part of it that wants a new DP and intake is even smaller.

It seems a few people here dont get the economy at work here, so this is a lesson in reality for some like Fishey, and an industry lesson for others like you who dont seem to be in this sort of business.

Take the issue of intakes. For the flanges, the program has to get made and the parts cut. CNC shops LOATH small batches or one offs, because the machine has to be loaded with the new program (not all are networked, so its not always a case of 3 clicks and done). The machine has to be setup (proper bits, etc). If theres a jig to hold the part that has to be put in. The correct stock has to be fetched and put in the machine. Maybe someone has to cut that stock to length first, or other pre work. When theres a batch of 1000 parts all the same, all the operator has to do is stand there and feed the CNC more metal for the next 4 days. When its 5 parts, he does it 5 times and repeats ALL of the above for the next job. That wastes machine time, operator time, shop time. This gets charged. Most CNC shops love big jobs because they are a better use of time. Tons of small jobs means less time that the machine is doing something. FYI, its like this in hospitals. A CT machine not scanning someone is not making money.

Now onto the 1000 vs 5. Lets say SFR has 2 intake orders, so they order those 5 sets of parts (3 go on the shelf for say the next 4 months of expected orders). They get their 5 intakes of parts, and say Bob stands there and welds them. He knows what to do so it takes him half the day total, then goes on to another task that he has. Say RicersRUS orders their 1000 intakes worth of parts. Now comes the big advantage for them, they can hire some college dropout named Tony to stand there and make them, because thats all he knows how to do. He doesnt get sent to work on a customers car, fetch parts, etc. He was hired to make intakes because RicersRUS knows that theyll sell those 1000 intakes in 2 months. They pulled him off the street, showed him how to weld, and cut him loose. The intakes are cheaper, and can be sold for less because of the volume.

Bob at SFR has to be someone usable for multiple jobs (working on customers car, taking orders, whatever) because SFR doesnt sell enough intakes to keep one person dedicated to them, Bob has to be smart and Bob being smart wants to be payed for his smarts. Tony knows hes got no major skills, and works for less. If Bob has to get paid $80k/year to stay at SFR and be happy, and Tony is happy with say $35k/year.... Guess what? Those 5 intakes that SFR sells HAVE to cost more because they have to keep Bob around. If they cut the cost on things they make and have to pay Bob less, Bob leaves. This means someone has to get hired and be taught how to do EVERYTHING Bob did. If Tony at RicersRUS leaves, they have to hire someone and train him to do that one job. Thats easy. This isnt even taking into account localized labor costs.


See the economy there? That same thing is in effect all over. Its the same reason the guy who makes Redline Rollbars makes 10 a time instead of 1. Its the same reason the guy who makes the Charley Arms waits till theres 20 orders to make them. Its the same reason youre in a MRI machine long enough for the scan and thats it.

evil 944t

POST 64, The DP costs,

"The 321(16g) u-bend is $100+shipping, 1 - 1/2" plate of 321SS depends on how much you buy but $85minimum(most metal shops won't sell such a low quantity), the 2 - 1/2" thick water jet cut flanges are $100+ shipping, time to pick it up/drop off because not many mills like cutting 1.5" 321 SS, CNC water jet cutter, welder/etc, drill and tap, welding rod, gas for back purging etc.."

Again, I welcome anyone to bring in good quality parts at a low price. We are trying to tell you that unless you do it in numbers, it can't be done. If you don't believe us fine but instead of telling us we are wrong, why don't you prove us wrong?

Nobody is coming down on you for thinking. I am just trying to inform you that it is not that easy to make them cheap. If you still can't understand then, I don't think you ever will. The best thing I can tell you is that you will have to wait for someone to make them for free or pay a vendor the going rate for a small market.

gt37vgt

you will always pay for convenience you could make almost 2 down pipes from one U bend if you re use the flanges .
for 5 down pipes you could do them change over for $200 that would cover for the jig that i think is worth 200 to make from steel but you couldn't make a living from it .

evil 944t

While I agree to a point, but its not an apples to apples. Your talking about reusing parts to making parts. You would still need to locate 5 stock DP's. Pay for them + shipping and the time it takes to cut the flanges off and grind/prep them to be reused. Make a living? You could even cover your health coverage for 2 days!

bscpanther

Dave, I never once said anyone was wrong. If I KNEW this could be done I never would have started this thread. If there is anything I get from this thread it is that some people are convinced (to say the least) it is impossible and laughable to think a 951 IM and DP could be made for less on a "business type platform" though a vendor. Although this could possibly be true it does NOT address the nature of this thread. So when you guys bring up "differences in market", bulk productions, business platform, business costs, business mindset, machinery costs, and fruit (apples and oranges) it is not applicable here. On the other hand If I were knocking down the door of one of our venders I would expect to hear all these issues. Im not. I thought I was addresing a whole bunch of people who (more or less) are just like me in the sense that I enjoy working with my hands and challenges. Perhaps this is a minority. I'm not cheap but I also won't say this has nothing to do with money, so if your someone who can/willing to drop a grand for an IM thats great but you probably wont be able to relate. In honestly I can say I am confident in being able to fabricate a worthy intake manifold and I know I can make a DP for less than I can get them now (argue all you want). My problem is with my current situation I would not be able to fabricate multiples. Furthermore, I know there are several here who have fabricated lots of various parts and would better qualify than myself. To these people I was looking to address. Its just a simple idea and just like any idea it needs people with solutions. If you can't be apart of a solution that is fine, just let it go.

Chris Prack

Well said. This is it in a nutshell. Read it carefully because he is 100% correct.

333pg333

From the outside it seems to me that you're taking this all too seriously and therefore coming out more aggressive than those that are trying to point out the actualities of the situation. There is no-one here who hasn't said go for it. Do it by all means and prove us all wrong. No harm, no foul. Dave actually said if you can pull it off (with a quality item) that he'd buy them from you. So chill out and do it and we can all get some rest.

bscpanther

trust me I'm chilled out and I'll get my rest.
"those that are trying to point out the actualities of the situation"
as I said these actualities are irrelevant. I'm not addressing a vendor. So I dont have to care about lights and quantity and etc..
It's hard to prove anyone wrong when we're not even talking about the same thing.