ehall

It appears that a common thread is that NONE of the engines mentioned were built by Chris White.
It also appears that the parts he supplied to various project builders were improperly installed, thus causing a failure.
It is painfully clear that there are some involved in this thread with RIDICULOUS expectations, in regards to what Chris, or ANY vendor, should be willing to put up with from a customer; much less someone for whom he is doing a GIANT number of favors.
Chris isn't in the shipping business. Next time you can bet he'll say a GIANT "**** you" to a person who is using his good nature, in order to save themselves money and aggravation. It's obvious that he should have done that here as well.

"What's the deal with these engine failures? I just picked up a set of 104mm Darton MID sleeves for my 2.5L block and I'm coming to find out that the few MID users on here have suffered very early engine failures.

There's also a Turbo S 951 on ebay right now that also being sold due to failed/scored #3 cylinder with MID sleeves and J&E pistons - Auction link. I've chatted with the seller and he claims the engine was built by someone in New York. His most stressed recommendation was to get the sleeves installed by a local machinist cause sending the engine back to the builder in NY has proven to be too costly. From what I can tell, there seems to be a common thread between engine failures and using J&E pistons. "

It shouldn't go unnoticed that the original post really couldn't be read in any way short of an attack on Chris. Everyone who has been on this board for a year or better, knows that Chris is the primary MID builder and supplier for MID sleeving and works/lives in New York.
That speculation and obvious finger pointing was classless and typical of the poster IMO. It's the type of crap I've come to expect from you Vic.

So show us all of these failed MID engines that were actually built by a builder in New York.

John D.

Bump - subscribe....

Interesting thread. At many levels.

Have a good evening.

John

Chris White

OK, "pissy Monday" is at an end (for me anyway). If anybody would like info (constructive) about this stuff please let me know....and have a nice day

Pauerman

If that's how you choose to read it that's your problem. I was simply quoting a fellow 951 enthusiats' comments on his experience with MID sleeves. He nor I made any claim of singling out any vendor responsible for his engine failure.

As this thread has progressed, it's clear that there's more than one vendor on the East coast that's capable of and has been installing these sleeves into the 944 block. So if you're done with the your little rant, go have a beer and keep the **** talking to yourself. It's comments like yours that surprise me that you're still around here.

George D

I would love to hear from folks that have used the MID platform in their 951 motors. Not just the ones that have had failures, but ones that have well running cars. I'm sure that I am not alone in my interest in hearing about another way to successfully run larger displacement motors realiably under conditions ranging from full racing to street applications.

I SEARCHED for folks that have successfully built 951 3.0 to 3.2 motors RUNNING with history using MID technology. I honestly couldn't find anyone willing to share stories, other than failures or cars with extremly low miles still under low boost and in tuning mode.

Because of this, I chose to go with a 968 block, stroker crank, and traditional proven 3.0 displacement.

I would LOVE to hear of success stories on the new MID motors. No bashing, just satisified folks running these motors.

Please, let us know how they are running.

George

Pauerman

George,

I have the same hopes as you. Some good has already come from some of the posts made. I have a vested interest in making these sleeves work and can only hope that the thread stays focused on what it takes to make that happen. The contributions so far, good or bad, have provided much more insight to the MID process than what's typically discussed. I hope we can move forward in a positive manner and put aside all the trash talk.

George D

I couldn't be more sincere in my interest in hearing about the MID wet sleeves working well with our blocks. I've been around these cars for a long time. This is my third 951 and have had about 13 other cars for 4 wheelin, rally driving, and just plain fun. I called almost everyone I knew or were referred to involved in the 951 motor building business or those that used to race. I couldn't find ONE instance where a MID wet customer could be referred. PLENTY of dry sleeved stuff, but no MID customers, racers, or users with any mileage running a good tune with 16 to 24 lbs boost reliably.

I'm not saying there not out there. I just couldn't find anyone from CT to LA successfully using MID sleeves in a 951.

I can't wait to hear that this technology is working well and holding up in all conditions from actual users. I know what it's like to have to tear something down because of issues. For me and many others, we have to PAY someone else to learn what the issues are. Very expensive education that I don't care to pay for ever again.

George

Geneqco

Very interesting thread... thanks for the link and thanks to Pauerman for starting this thread - it always helps to make informed decisions!

As to your question, I was quoted $2850 with JE Pistons (the pistons retail for $699 from LR), so apples to apples... $2150 - another quote was $2500.

I'd always feel more comfortable dealing direct with the machine shop... especially one experienced with the specific application. That way, there's no machine shop to hide behind if something goes wrong... not to mention that you save yourself about 40 to 50% of the cost - I'd have to question what value is being added here?

I know a lot of people like to say that you get what you pay for... it's simply not always true.

2bridges

wow - what a read...... think I got **** on me.....

Pauerman

If memory serves me, Darton quoted me $1200 for just installing the sleeves. So to see a $1300 price tag that includes the sleeves and the install, decking the block and honing the sleeves to size with a torque plate looks like a pretty good deal. $2800-3000 seems to be the seems to be the price I remember floating around for a complete sleeve & piston combo ready to go.


You're very welcome. I'm glad you're getting something out of this.

DanG

Chris built my MID motor for me during the fall of '05, it actually showed up on my birthday. Unfortunately all I've done with it is peel off the shrinkwrap, take some pictures, then box it back up. I elected to make a career move across the country and brought the motor with me but left the chassis back on the east coast as my new company wouldn't move an in-op car. Tomorrow is my 1 year mark with the new job, and I'm nearing the point that I'll have the chassis shipped out to restart the project.

I had Chris do everything on the motor, including machining, sleeve installation, pistons, rings, rods, crank, bearings, and the girdle. My short block is 100% 944 Enhancement's work. That being said, my engine will have a lot of my own parts on it, including a Garrett dual BB turbo and Megasquirt engine management. So a majority of the success or failure of the project will rest on my shoulders, not Chris'. But I'm counting on that expensive bottom end to be absolutely bulletproof and trouble free, and I'll do my part with help from some experts in my network out here to make sure the air, fuel, and spark are as they should be.

hosrom_951

I never came across a thread where Christ White's MID sleeve kit caused problems, as long as Chris White did the assembly, not just supply the parts.

Christ white mentioned this many times before, it is not about the parts (sleeves rings, pistons) but how well they are put together.

Christ white (as far as i know) is the only one who really take his time and uses the most accurate tools and equipment in preparing the block, installing the sleeves and checking.

I have not seen other MID sleeves survive and been brutally tested (on and off the track) from any other vendor (yet), only time will tell.

Vic: Yes, i spoke to darton sometime late last year and they install and do everything, but i do not know a person here that runs Darton sleeves installed by darton (unless i did not see that post).

There is a very good reason why Chris White charged approx $2,750 (2.7L) for the MID kit (block prep, installation, ring and piston installation). It all comes down to how they are put together, and not the actual sleeves that cause problems (unless if there is another brand/type of sleeves out there that is causing problems).

I don't have any sleeved block(s), nor experience them, but i am sharing what i have seen on and off rennlist.

333pg333

Hey Ehall, good to see you back from your chest beating self imposed exile. Pity you had to leave your least acerbic post that I can remember. If you read between the lines, above and below them, let alone the lines themselves, you would have seen that my comments were justified. I wasn't trying to assassinate Chris' good character or abilities, I was defending myself and clearing up a few issues. I clearly stated that it must be frustrating for Chris to have these things happen on the other side of the world out of his control. I also said that the installation was done by a very experienced machine shop. If Chris or anyone else sells something, it should come with complete installation guides. All we could do was use what was in front of us. In the end we felt somewhat in the dark, flying blind. It became a bit of trial and error. As I said it all comes down to communication.
As for shipping being a big favour, well it's business the world over, pain in the *** or not. As I said, no-one has gone broke off my dollar on this build. I pay up front & don't haggle or whinge.
I think the bottom line is that we are all pulling in the same direction. We do wish Chris and others success with the MID's. As Bruce said before, these motors need a way of being preserved now and in the future. This sort of system will allow us and many more the chance to experience these cars for years to come, and isn't that why we're all in this forum?

Geneqco

Reading between the lines...
Let me guess... the other common thread was the spec sheet provided.

If someone touts themselves as the expert in a particular field who has done all the R&D work and you deal with them directly, I don't believe it is ridiculous to expect that they will provide you with spec's that will work.

The fact that the issues have not been isolated to one shop would tend to suggest Patrick's assertion is indeed correct and a major contributor to the issues.

I think a lot of heartache both on the part of the Vendor, Shops and end users could be avoided by simply providing good documentation - proper specs and also addressing any issues that have caused problems for others.

Chris White

Specs are always provided - the engineering drawings for the sleeves were emailed and the pistons clearences were given. Pistion rings gapping info was provided with any pistons supplied.

I can't make people follow directions....as far as giving a complete detailed written discription / directions of how to do what I do - why don't I just give away the farm? If I spell out in complete detail on how to do this, based the attitudes and past experiences with some listers, I might as well retire. There will be clones settign up web sites and seeling cheap in a matter of days.

As far as the costs of this - well you are paying for more than just the parts. You are paying for the experience ad attention to detail. Its more than mahcine work - machines just do what you tell them. Knowing what to tell tham is the important thing.

And here is your freebie for the day - does the machine shop that was mentioed earlier replce the oil galley freeze plugs? If not then the oil galleys were not cleaned...not a real good idea after maching a block. Do they know how to repace the lower freeze plug so it dosen't pop out and kill your oil pressure? (seen that before on a number of 'other' peoples handiwork).

Anyway - there is some truth out there so what I have learned is no more sales of sleeves and pistons seperatly - only installed with the rings gapped. I am also considering dropping that too and only sellng complete bottom ends (or maybe just fully assembgled engines). I hate to do that becasue I really like the DIY crowd that wants to build thier own engines.....

Oh yeah - as far as data for running MID engines - I won't bother with that since some folks will just label it as propaganda. In fact I am learning from some of the other Porsche builders....don't give any info out - keep it a secret. Yeah, thas it....I don't do MID's anymore. Its a super special secret propritary process using old world elves and secret chants....anybody got a spare virgin? - I got some engines to build.