Some questions about a 951 i just looked at
06-01-2007, 07:27 PM
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Some questions about a 951 i just looked at
Just got back from looking at a 1986 951 with 97k. The car has had 3 owners and all have taken real good cosmetic care of the car. Paint shines and the seats are in excellent condition. No dash cracks either. The past owner has had to car for a little less then 6 years. When he bought it, with 90k miles, he took the car to Fabson AG which is a Porsche specialty shop by Road America. They replaced a couple thousand worth of parts most notably the timing belt, seals, and waterpump. Now since the timing belts are 6 years old but with only 7k on them will they require immediate replacement?
Other than being on the original clutch, the car is in great shape otherwise. Does 7,500 sound like a fair price?
Other than being on the original clutch, the car is in great shape otherwise. Does 7,500 sound like a fair price?
06-01-2007, 07:46 PM
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I would have them looked at to check tension and to make sure there was no cracking or other wear. $7500.00 sounds like a fair price for a well maintained 951. Be aware that things like the A/C, rubber hoses, and cooling system actually degrade faster when never used. Also plan on a nice 2000.00 payout to replace the clutch unless you are doing it yourself.
06-01-2007, 07:48 PM
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That sounds like a good price for the car. The timing belt will have to be replaced though - the interval for changing them is every 30k mi or 3 years. The rubber will start to oxidize and corrode away after a while.
Be aware of how much a clutch job costs, or how much work it requires if you plan on doing it yourself, because at 97k on the original clutch it may end up going out soon (depending upon your driving style and whatnot). I want to say a shop usually quotes 12-14 hours of labor at $90/hr, so with parts it can end up being a good $1500 or so.
Be aware of how much a clutch job costs, or how much work it requires if you plan on doing it yourself, because at 97k on the original clutch it may end up going out soon (depending upon your driving style and whatnot). I want to say a shop usually quotes 12-14 hours of labor at $90/hr, so with parts it can end up being a good $1500 or so.
06-01-2007, 09:43 PM
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$7500 sounds like a good deal for what you're describing, but we'd really have to know a lot more to say for sure. Key questions are:
1. True mechanical condition and needs? 7k miles in 6 years is very unusual, and lots of things can go south due to limited use (seals, rubber hoses, etc.). Has the car received regular service since the last major service 6 years ago? Leaks? Records prior to the past 6 years indicating big ticket wear and tear stuff has been replaced at a normal rate (i.e., control arms, steering rack, etc.). Cracked headers?
2. Previous accident damage? Is the paint original? If not, why not? If repair work has been carried out, is it of Porsche quality? This can be hard to assess.
3. Overall condition, condition, and condition -- of everything. Does the digital clock work? Are there any boo boos in the interior that you'll feel compelled to fix? Are the tires serviceable? Are the weather seals Ok? Are there dings that you'll feel compelled to fix? Do all of the power options work? Has the car had a crappy stereo install? Shocks? Bushings? A/C blows cold? Fuchs or phone dials? Do they need refinishing?
As noted above, the timing and balance shaft belts require immediate replacement if it's been 6 years. You should definitely get a PPI to find out for sure what you're in for otherwise. The difference in cost between a spectacularly maintained, largely original, unmolested car and a car that needs to hump your wallet is only a few $k. The cost to take a car that is mediocre up to the standard of a $12k 951 can easily be $15k (plus the cost of the car) or more.
Don't mean to scare you, just suggest that you get a full PPI and know exactly what you are getting. If the car has limited needs and is very nice, $7500 is a steal. If the car is about to need a clutch (like, tomorrow), I don't think you're going to be spending $1500-$2000 on that job. That's what it cost to do a 951 clutch 10 or 15 years ago when that was all the car was likely to need. It's pretty unlikely that there won't be a bunch of "while you're in there's" at this stage of the game if the car has largely been garage art for 6 years. Add an oil pan gasket (and you may as well do rod bearings while you're doing that) and it's $4k. Add the belts and a front end reseal and it's pushing $5k. This is all relatively inexpensive compared to many classic cars (price out a broken head stud repair on a same year 911 and you'll see what I mean), but is not inexpensive relative to the purchase price of these cars. $2k per year in maintenace is pretty average (although it can come in lumps). If the car hasn't been getting that, there might be a backlog waiting for you that makes saving $2k up front pretty irrelevant.
1. True mechanical condition and needs? 7k miles in 6 years is very unusual, and lots of things can go south due to limited use (seals, rubber hoses, etc.). Has the car received regular service since the last major service 6 years ago? Leaks? Records prior to the past 6 years indicating big ticket wear and tear stuff has been replaced at a normal rate (i.e., control arms, steering rack, etc.). Cracked headers?
2. Previous accident damage? Is the paint original? If not, why not? If repair work has been carried out, is it of Porsche quality? This can be hard to assess.
3. Overall condition, condition, and condition -- of everything. Does the digital clock work? Are there any boo boos in the interior that you'll feel compelled to fix? Are the tires serviceable? Are the weather seals Ok? Are there dings that you'll feel compelled to fix? Do all of the power options work? Has the car had a crappy stereo install? Shocks? Bushings? A/C blows cold? Fuchs or phone dials? Do they need refinishing?
As noted above, the timing and balance shaft belts require immediate replacement if it's been 6 years. You should definitely get a PPI to find out for sure what you're in for otherwise. The difference in cost between a spectacularly maintained, largely original, unmolested car and a car that needs to hump your wallet is only a few $k. The cost to take a car that is mediocre up to the standard of a $12k 951 can easily be $15k (plus the cost of the car) or more.
Don't mean to scare you, just suggest that you get a full PPI and know exactly what you are getting. If the car has limited needs and is very nice, $7500 is a steal. If the car is about to need a clutch (like, tomorrow), I don't think you're going to be spending $1500-$2000 on that job. That's what it cost to do a 951 clutch 10 or 15 years ago when that was all the car was likely to need. It's pretty unlikely that there won't be a bunch of "while you're in there's" at this stage of the game if the car has largely been garage art for 6 years. Add an oil pan gasket (and you may as well do rod bearings while you're doing that) and it's $4k. Add the belts and a front end reseal and it's pushing $5k. This is all relatively inexpensive compared to many classic cars (price out a broken head stud repair on a same year 911 and you'll see what I mean), but is not inexpensive relative to the purchase price of these cars. $2k per year in maintenace is pretty average (although it can come in lumps). If the car hasn't been getting that, there might be a backlog waiting for you that makes saving $2k up front pretty irrelevant.
06-01-2007, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by KLR
That's what it cost to do a 951 clutch 10 or 15 years ago when that was all the car was likely to need. It's pretty unlikely that there won't be a bunch of "while you're in there's" at this stage of the game if the car has largely been garage art for 6 years.
its the "while you're in there's" that somehow get forgotten when figuring out purchase budgets.
06-02-2007, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by t34418l31
so will the car be ok to make a 100mile trip on the current timing betls?
Do you live in a moist or arid climate? Was the engine at least turned during that six year debaticle?
Timing belts are funny things...sometimes they last double their life, sometimes they break the next day.
Personally, unless I got belts replaced, and probably clutch...on a great car...I wouldn't trust a 20 year old car to make it on a road trip.
Right before I took my '91 Impulse on a trip, I replaced all of the belts, rebuilt the turbo, and just because I had so much off the car decided to do piston rings and new valves for no reason except for insurance. Just depends on how much insurance you want to carry...so to speak.
Just think of it this way, you can walk three miles home...but if you're left in the dust 100 miles from home, it really f-ing sucks. Take it from experience, haha.
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06-02-2007, 03:37 PM
#8
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I'd say you're looking at 2500-3000 at minimum in the first year of owning the car, just to do the things you KNOW need done. This doesn't account for other problems that will just pop up out of no where on you. Go back and look at the car and ask yourself if it's a $10-11k dollar car and see what your outlook on it is then.
How is the car optioned? If it has LSD and sport seats...that will affect the price. Let us know!
How is the car optioned? If it has LSD and sport seats...that will affect the price. Let us know!
06-03-2007, 11:35 PM
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If everything else seemed fine on your test drive, the belts wouldn't preclude taking it for a 100 mile drive. When the 944 was new, there was no specified interval for belt replacement, only inspection and retensioning. I'm sure that thousands of 944s went for over 6 years without a TB replacement, and it would be quite a coincidence if this car is really only 100 miles from a failure. That said, if you buy the car, you should do it very soon. If there is no record that it has ever been retensioned (it should have at least been retensioned once about 1000 miles after the installation), I would be more concerned, but you probably won't have any trouble driving it for 90 minutes.
The upside to buying a 21 year old turbocharged car that's never had the headgasket done is that even if the belt were to go, your valveguides and headgasket probably are pretty worn anyway and would benefit from replacement, so it's not the world's biggest deal. This same logic drives many suspension, turbo, etc. upgrades and lightens many wallets.
The upside to buying a 21 year old turbocharged car that's never had the headgasket done is that even if the belt were to go, your valveguides and headgasket probably are pretty worn anyway and would benefit from replacement, so it's not the world's biggest deal. This same logic drives many suspension, turbo, etc. upgrades and lightens many wallets.