Standalone EMS...?
 

Which is the best system? I'm more than likely going with Tec3. Anyone else out there have a standalone? What are the opinions???

Tec3 or Vitesse plug and play management for his turbos etc. If you go Tec3 go with Chris White and his maps...you'll be glad you did.

With the Maxtronic out, and soon to be released MaxTune, I don't see a need for an aftermarket EMS for 99.5% of people.



Rogue

Better diagnostics.

Sure, but is it worth the install, setup, hassle and extra money?
For the VAST majority the answer is no, imo.



Rogue

Don't want to hijack or argue a point here, but I will say that I cannot compare the Maxtronic and MaxTune to a stand alone system. Since I'm still using the factory DME, there will be limitations. Modern day EMS systems provide a lot more functionality. But to use one you've either got to be an engineer or have someone do it for you. That's why Chris makes the big bucks! :) In the NY area Chris is considered THE Tec3 expert, bar none. I know this from many conversations with friends and associates that are his customers.

my $0.02...

C'mon! How one can compare 20 year old stock DME to modern and high-resolution engine management?!?
You can look at the install in two diferent ways: one is usual hassle and headache, second is the way to have a NEW and perfectly working engine wiring harness in your car not hardened, oili and ugly 20year old wires.
Not to mention the possibility to go distributorless or COP igniton that makes the engine compartment much cleaner looking.

But, on topic. If you have plenty of cash, go with the Autronic or Motec. If not, consider VEMS. These options are valid in case you have a clue of what you are doing and are one of the best in versatility, power and features but I'm not familiar with the support in US.
If not, go with the one that has the best support you can get.

Good points. By no means do I want to deter anyone from going aftermarket EMS... I'm simply saying that for the majority it isn't needed.


Rogue

I have a Wolf3D in my 951, and it is a really powerful and flexible system.

Its quite inexpensive over here in Australia ... but looks expensive overseas, which would be the sticking point I would imagine.

The most attractive thing to me about the Tec3 or any standalone EMS is the new wiring harness etc, but the support is what will make or break the deal. Also don't have any run of the mill shop install it or you'll get into a cost so high...just get an expert to do it.

a system from the 80's DOES have limitations and can't really be compared

a good ems is also typicly something that is both good hardware wise, but also someting you can get support and help with. plenty of good systems out there.

and yes, most people don't need it. but if your building a 3 liter, changeing turbos, injectors, etc you might wanna go there. I will also have a new cdi unit and loose the distributor.

to mention some goodies i can have enabled, als, launch, water injection control. nitrous control, boost control etc. I can also switch maps for E85 easy and a lot of other cool stuff. but if you just want more power it's way overkill. and I also get wb02 and EGT monitoring on a small LCD and a log of it all.

to raceboy, is it your car I see in vems wiki from estonia?

I have several cars there, this is our project together with my friend but it belongs to him :) I just put some brains in the car.

Whatever you do, make sure you get a knock sensor.
Nothing could POSSIBLY be more stupid than to run a tuned 951 without knock-sensing/acting capabilities.

So you think running motec would be foolish?

Knock sensor is just a safety device. And there's a difference in knock sensor receiver and a knock sensor receiver. Knock sensor is just a piezo-microphone that sends the signal to ECU or specialized devise and there's the most important thing: it has to know WHEN to act. Most of the stuff is just plain crap as it's not tuned to the knocking frequency of specific cylinder (has to a lot with the diameter and has to be calculated precicely). You don't want the device to pull the timing on hydraulic lifter noise (seen this many times) or not acting when actual knocking occurs (also seen that).
When tuning, ONLY viable device detecting knock is stethoscope. With that banjo-bolted onto the upper part of the block you can clearly hear when knocking begins and it doesn't get to hurt engine. By the time you hear it behind the wheel, it's usually too late: if it didn't kill the engine this time, it just won't survive it again.

And engine management that doesn't make use of intake temp sensor, is just crap. It must pull timing in pre-determined amount in user-defineable temps.

That is correct.

The Motronic system is VERY good.
A lot of turkeys don't realize HOW good it is.
I would NEVER use anything on a 951 that could not pull timing like the Motronic does.
I suppose if you are happy at weak power levels (400 HP), the Motec is fine for a turbo 951.
Doesn't even the SDS system have knock detection? :roflmao:

Does the TEC 3 have a knock-detection system?
This will seem to be elementary stuff to me.
Anyone who has pushed a 951 (especially at the track with high temps) will agree with me, I am sure.
This is a very basic necessity in 2007.

A standalone has a target audience. In recent years the prices has come down; most systems (except for Motec) are in the same price range. Functionality, most well known systems, offer just about the same. SUPPORT is what makes or brakes any system. Purchasing the hardware, the wire loom is just part of the equation. You have the sensors, triggers and installation to be concerned with. Then you need to tune it! For a race car, not a big deal! For the street it's a different story. Whatever you get, make sure they have expereice with your car and are willing to help. For a TEC3, Chris White is your best bet.

As for those that comment on the Motronic, yes it is old, however it does everything it needs to do.
In reality there are VERY FEW people that really understand the Motronic (DME & KLR), I'm not just talking about the data tables. Soon enough you will know what I'm talking about :)

So using a motec ems will result in less power than motronic?Why is it used for track cars, don't they need power?

No using the Motec does not result is less power (unless you tune it poorly). On a dedicated race car requiring constant changes, a standalone makes sense especially if they cannot alter the Motronic system. As I stated above, a standalone has a target audience, race cars is one.

However, I'm yet to see a 951 making less HP because it's Motronic. A engine management is as good as the way it is programmed. For those wanting to go to a coilpack ot COP, we have done it already.

Ok, I don't want to turn this into a Standalone vs. Motronic thread... I gave my opinion, so let's move on.

Should have been more specific: stock Motronic is better than crappy standalones. But hey, I guess I am a bit naive presuming that no-one will buy crappy standalone :D

I want to say that I OBSESS about the knock system on my Motronic.
This is how concerned I am with it.
John at Vitesse can corroborate this.
I meticulously, OFTEN (only because I am always modifying) check wiring and connections relating to KLR/DME interface and knock sensor.

This is my opinion of the knock system importance.

I have a Tec3r at this point I am very happy with its functionality, and it has many features and options that I will put to use as time goes on. I feel that a motronic system can not becomared to a good standalone past the point that they both controle an engine. Think of what a desk top computer was like in the 80's and think what they are like now, they both do the same thing but...

The most important thing is to go with a system you can suport from localy. I bought mine from Under Pressure Performance which is a 45 minute drive from my house. Not many people mention UPP on these boards when they talk about the Tec3 because there is a presence on these boards of other tec3 dealers but I feel for our cars and the tec3 it does not get better than UPP. Alot of things that people do on these boards and think is new or ground breaking is not and has already been done, many of these things by UPP.

:thumbup:

Yes, it does. Tuning on the edge of knock is not the most intelligent thing IMO. The knock sensor should be a SECONDARY source. If you're tuning on the edge, you're tuning out your safety margin, one tank of bad gas, one slip of not paying attention, etc, BOOM. I'm less concerned with knock then the other engine variables. The great thing about my Tec3R setup is the new wiring harness and the technical support. I have recieved the absolute best support from Chris White for my Tec3R and John @ Vitesse for my old turbo. These guys are second to none.

Oh, I know.
I don't use it to tune.
I am talking about an ACTIVE system (such as the Motronic) that can retard ignition as needed, should something happen - like a failed fuel regulator, pump, vacuum line, injector, bad fuel, boost spike etc, etc., etc., etc. ;)

Retard, advance, how many degrees, etc at what RPM threshold at what knock count? ;) So yes, set it up however you like. Hell I bet you could set it to spray meth on one of the GPO's if it detected a certain knock count or higher. But I havent looked at that as I have no desire to run meth.

Yes, you can have the tec do pretty much what ever you want it to based on a deffined knock voltage, like have turn on water injection insted of pulling some thing like boost, timing or cut ignition. The tec has GPO (general out puts) that you can hook up to water ever you want ant be controled but knock voltage. The flexability of the Tec is unbelievable. It also has a built in over boost cut that cuts ignition at a predefined pressure.

I do not run a knock sensor at this point because of things like solid lifters. I am considering the link knock moniter which is a series of LEDs that show knock voltage but do not interfear with the ECU. Another thing I could do with the Tec is set up the Knock sensor and a GPO to light up a LED at a certain voltage but not pull anything.

Cool.

Nope. Technically a good aftermarket EMS is only capable of making more power and being more efficient as most good, modern EMS's have superior hardware, more advanced features, larger number of load sites to more finely tune at smaller rpm intervals etc. However, much of the time this comes at a price as many aftermarket EMS' can be very tough to tune properly. This is the reason you see lots of standalones with poor drivability. It's not the fault of the standalone itself, just a poor tune. There are newer EMS' out there that have made tuning much easier so that this is less and less of a problem but the fact remains that it still takes some effort. What others are talking about here is that the stock Motronic is still capable of handling quite a bit that you can throw at it and will be easier to tune. Ultimately it's all tuning, and without a proper one any setup out there will suck. ;)

I knew that ;) Track conditions is the most extreme situation I am envisaging

I still say the proper knock detection system should be connected to a 5th spark plug located in the driver’s seat firmly placed near the sub strap.

As I have mentioned before – the most important thing to get with your standalone is support. Most of the current stand alones have a lot of tuning power – and a lot of mistuning power!
Crystal or liquid?

My way of thinking is a little different (and it sounds weird coming from a stand alone guy).
The EMS doesn’t make any power. Zip, none, nada.
What it does do - It allows the rest of the parts to create more power.
One of the typical questions I get is “How much more power will the Tec3 make”….um…none. But it will allow you to maximize the potential of all the other parts of your system. It will allow you to make your own decision on safety margin vs. performance.
To get the most out of you set up you have to tune the ‘system’ – this includes hardware like turbos, intercoolers, intake and exhaust manifolds and it also includes environmental issues – intake temps, fuel quality, coolant temps and system faults (like oil consumption lowering the octane).

Hehe. :thumbup:



Isn't that the darn truth! :) I completely agree with your point of view.

Big bump to this post Mike!

http://www.rs6.com/smilies/cheers.gif

I know Milledge and KMR both use Motec systems as do many other Porsche tuners. Having said that, the most important thing would be to choose a system based upon the support you will get for it. A well tuned TEC3 will be much better than a poorly installed and tuned Motec just as a well tune Motec will be much better than a poorly installed and tuned TEC3.

Even if you are going it alone you are still going to need assistance to get the best out of whatever unit you have. What system to get is going to depend largely on your level of experience.

We're currently installing VEMS standalone on a Customers 951 thats getting a Chevy LS2 crate motor swap and a Paxton Supercharger but that obviously wouldnt work on the Factory motronic ECU either.

you can't beat plug-and-play;
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum/233816-wolf-3d-ems.html

Plug'n'play justifies itself only on relatively new vehicles. Plugging ECU to the 20year old harness like on 951 is asking for trouble. Bad ground can fry aftermarket ECU not to mention wasting the time chasing poor connections.

i think that's a poor excuse made by people who don't have plug-and-play. there was nothing wrong with the harness/wiring on all three of my last 951's, and every single 951 i've ever seen around here has zero issues with the stock wiring. one should not be forced to re-wire their entire car (and not be able to return to stock) just because they want to go to a standalone ecu.

Plug and play is not rocket science. Its just a wiring issue. The Tec3 could run as a plug and play if an adapter was configured to create the physical attachment.
Of course you would lose the ability to have semi-sequential or full sequential injection, the superior wasted spark ignition system, modern sensors and a new harness.
In fact I looked at doing a plug and play – it would be a lot easier for me since I wouldn’t have to make up the harness…but you lose too much in the translation.

That begin said – I don’t know why this type of discussion always gets a little testy. There are merits for each method. Jus t take your pick and don’t feel the need to belittle the other systems.

i think those should be options, not requirements. if it's 'just a wiring issue', why not do it and at least offer it as an option for those who don't want to re-wire their car?

OK, if you can find anybody that wants to delete some of what I feel are fairly important features (new harness, coil pack, sensors) I will accommodate them and make it a plug and play setup for the same price….

Come on Chris, that one's obvious. Its because the only system that's the best is the one the poster has! Or has read lots of threads about on the intarweb.

Following that logic of course, the ONLY answer in standalones starts with Mega and ends with 'squirt! Its the ugly red-headed stepchild of the industry, which I'd like to blame primarily on its uber-low entry fee, and predictably uber-low experience level of the cheapskates and forum geeks that use it. You don't see too many of them on $50k+ race cars, although I believe they are just as up to the task. They certainly measure up on paper. I'll be running it on my $500 24hrs of LeMons volvo, as well as my $4k engine'd 951.

While the system itself has EXCELLENT support, there are only a small handful of guys using it on our cars. I'm cool with that, but not many other people are.

DanG,
Does MS have knock sensor ability?


Rogue

Yes, but it monitors it all the time, not just during combustion events. The good news is the sensor amp with the most support was developed specifically for the Bosch knock sensor on our engines.

http://www.viatrack.ca/

With the "-extra" code (that I'll run in my car) you can adjust some parameters, including the amount of timing retard...

http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Ex...nual.htm#knock

Here's a screenshot of the knock sensing settings...

http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Ex...s/mt-knock.jpg

Its not the best system out there, but its decent.

Well put :thumbup:

But MS v2.2 is not up to the task on some high-cylinder/high rpm engines. This requires at least MS II.

The Megasquirt stuff is actually pretty nice – but not for you average ‘turn key’ customer!

i'm curious why somebody hasn't made a turn-key megasquirt for the 951 community. :)

See I'm looking into EMS and I have no idea who to go with. Powerhaus is a Motec and TecIII dealer but David is retiring so I need to get with someone who will provide support as I have no clue how to work with it in regards to tuning. Which brings me to my next issue. I need someone close to be able to help me. Cris Carrol is in Phoenix and used to work at Powerhaus. He owns Turbo Craft and deals in AEM EMS. A lot of Supra guys use it and swear by it. I just don't know.

I have a contact named Walker, but he is in CO now I think. he swears by AEM as well. They will not support you if you buy a honda box and put it on a Porsche, and they will not support you if you put a race box on yourself.

since i've been using AEM, i've found their support is top notch so far. i'm in constant contact directly with their programmers and engineers. i don't know many companies that will provide that kind of after-sale support.

Well, then there you go. I have always liked AEM. I have bought and sold two of their computers since I Have a habit of hoarding parts I may or may not use in the future. What are you using AEM on? How did you construct the loom if it wasn't plug and play?

i think there are 2 separate AEMs...the AEM that most are probably familiar with is the us-based AEM Power...there is an australian company called AEM who are the guys who make the wolf 3d. at least as far as i can tell, unless they're affiliated.

i'm using the wolf3d which is plug and play and comes already tuned/customized for the 951.

http://gallery.silentmedia.com/d/58675-2/IMG_2025-2.jpg

http://gallery.silentmedia.com/d/58555-2/wolf3d4.JPG

http://gallery.silentmedia.com/d/58681-2/wolf3d-log.jpg

I run a Wolf as well :D

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...e/Picture7.jpg

Oh.

Just got a price estimate on an AEM system. Am off my rocker or is about $7,000 way too much? How much is everyone paying. I also found out that it has two settings for different sea levels but as far as i know, Vitesse engine management automatically adjusts to all sea levels for air and fuel. I must be missing something.

lindsey sells the wolf3d for $3500 complete;
http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...ry_Code=WOLF3D

you can probably get it for less directly from bob at randomems.

the wolf automatically adjusts for all sea levels, engine temperature variations, air temp variations, battery voltage variations, and can adjust all of those for the fuel map, ignition timing, and boost control. any or all, your choice.

Umm, this is what every modern managemtn can do. If it cannot compensate for barometric pressure, temperature (both IAT and CLT) and affect fuel+timing based on those changes, then it's not suitable for turbocharged car.

how about also affect boost based on the same changes?

apparantly, joe says aem only has two settings?

He might be refering to fuel quality or boost controller settings.

the wolf has infinite fuel quality and boost controller settings, as you can swap maps on the fly without shutting the motor down, and you can do this even without a laptop. boost also has variable adjustment/settings in realtime from a remote control.

this is interesting though. a while ago i compiled a list of features and which ems had what. i think i'll compile an updated feature list. it makes no sense for a $7k ems to have just two settings for anything.

What does that include? Awhile back I spoke to Chris Carroll @ Turbokraft about an AEM setup for my Carrera. Apples to oranges I know but for a complete plug n play system, 2 piece quick disconnect fully terminated harness, fuel injectors of my choice, and all of the typical sensors (map, IAT, wideband, tps, etc) it was around ~$4.5-5k, though his prices might have changed somewhat so don't quote me on that. For a complete AEM setup, what I was quoted is about the norm for a complete setup for most cars that require a custom harness among other things (basically cars not specifically supported by AEM). The ecu alone is around ~$1500-2000+ depending on the application. $7k sounds a bit too high, however if that includes dyno tuning and isn't just all the parts then $7k sounds relatively close IMO. If $7k is just a plug and play setup and parts only then that sounds about ~$3k too high. I would only pay $7k if that was an entire setup with maybe some extras like fuel system upgrades, and a full tune (not just some quick wideband "auto" tune).

http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=63

Another nice thing about the AEM is it has quite a few optional items. You can convert to a CDI/coil on plug ignition setup, you can convert to full sequential injection (of course you'll have to re-wire the injector harness), knock control....and the list goes on.

I think for 7 grand you can a Motec or a Haltech for that price. Hell I can prob get the Haltec and installed of that price. I know the Spot :evilgrin:

I know everyone really loves spending money. I'm one of those people, but with the most recent changes, Megasquirt is a viable, expandable solution. While it does not have sequential just yet, it is in the works, and sequential is simply there to get, what, that extra 4%?

I am into my megasquirt setup for under 1K....

Fully sequential allows you to get a good idle ouf of really big (96lb) injectors.
It also allows for cylinder by cylinder tuning.
That being said - its not really needed on most applications

Sorry to interupt the infomercial - but what the hell is an Infinitely adjustable fuel quality setting?

Yes, Chris, I stand corrected. The big injectors are need for the relatively smaller motors with big boost. As I said, its in the works.

testify brother

i'm assuming the 'two settings for fuel' means you can swap between two fuel maps on the fly. if you can swap, say, ten thousand fuel maps on the fly, what would you call it?

Lambda.

Hmmm….are you saying that the system holds 10,000 maps and you can switch from map to map with the twist of a simple knob? Interesting.
BTW – adjusting for fuel quality requires altering the timing and A/F ratios by load and rpm – its not a simple adjustment

Here is the dark and lonely road I traveled ....... I am now a believer. :D

PART I
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...t&pagenumber=1

PART II
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=megasquirt

PART III
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=megasquirt

PART IV
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=megasquirt

PART V
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=megasquirt

PART VI
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=megasquirt

PART VII
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=megasquirt

PART VIII
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=megasquirt

PART VIIII Place holder FOR dyno schedule for April/07

yes. and yes. it can actually hold more if you want to set it up that way, though i don't see why anyone would need more than, say, five settings unless they can actually run 10,000 different types of fuel.

it also has the ability to automatically switch fuel on the fly, so you can run two seperate fuel tanks, and have the system switch to 110octane at 12+psi boost (or whatever) while using 92octane at lower boost, without any user intervention.

and that's some awesome work, alexe. :)

Sry, all of those features and even more are on VEMS v3.3 also. And it costs like 900$. It also has 8cylinder FULL sequential injection and ignition, dual integrated WB, dual knock sensors, dual EGT's and LCD display to show all that. Did I mention it has immobilizer (or low-boost/rpm etc map) function via iButton interface and fully mappable boost controller?
And it offer support for almost all trigger types.

All I want to say that by today nearly every managemnt system has plenty of features, all just comes down to potential buyer: will one install it himself, whether he needs support and if he does, is it near him. That is what determines the final decision.

i'd like to compile a list of side-by-side feature comparisons between what's on the market today. i'm surprised car magazines haven't already done this, like a radar detector shootout. :)

How do you switch from map to map?

there are many ways, all possible on-the-fly and virtually unlimited;

1) with your laptop connected (i would be surprised if other ems did not allow this)
2) with hard plug 'map' modules (about the size of a small usb drive)
3) with the remote control

the memory modules are plug in/out, but could easily be wired inline with switches (or buttons, dials, whatever) so you can select which module to run without having to unplug/replug them.

http://wolfems.cart.net.au/images/pr...895_106560.gif

there might be other ways which i haven't figured out yet.

The AEM system for $7000 is with tuning all set and ready to go. I hate having to tune and tweek and I don't know how to do it anyway. I'm going to learn when I get it but right now I want it in and running perfectly for good. What are other prices for other systems.
Chris, what does a TecIII system go for installed and tuned. Others? What did you pay?

It is hard to compete with Mega- squirt , TOYS R US usually discounts them and there is one on every corner :D

love all the low level hype , with this unreliable , no support stuff, a lot of dis- information on this . would love to see one of these toy R's us system somewhere , the dyno , track something PLeeeeeaseee enough banter , disconnect it from the internet as i would like to see the mushroom cloud :corn:

Most companies don; need to , there customers are busy driving :cheers:

somebody needs to make a turn-key plug-and-play megasquirt solution for the 951. :)

but then it would probably cost $5000.

heheh, they're actually answering some newbie questions i have, and listening to my suggestions for the next set of improvements. :) (like backlight timeout for their dash display).

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
you got to love it

you can use stock crank trigger with some types of aftermarket efi, it has same trigger as audi. it's quite simple and old. it's not like if you have to control the throttle body, transmission or anything.

Bump :biggulp:

The thing i like about the TEC 3 is the fact all of the senors are GM which is really of the shelf parts. So if you ever have a problem on the road you can go to a local parts store or the dealer and grab the part.

Chris do you need to adapt any of these sensors in order to make them work and fit on a 951 engine.

wolf system works with any sensors, not just GM. user's choice.

I really want to do the MSII on my 928. I had a MSnE with EDIS stuff, but I sold it when some plans changed. Now I think I may want to get back into it. I may get the car going on the stock LH before I do, but its tempting to dive right back into a full solution.

Nice to read comments like this from someone thats never even seen or used the system. Please, teach me more. :rolleyes:

Everyone is doing different things with theirs so far. And the point of MS isnt really to make a turnkey/plug and play system.

DanG

No, please teach me! I would love to see this system in action , maybe on the dyno , or the race track , i mean you name it . there is enough rennlisters in CA to see it in action, show us it's 3 Dim ability to map boost , or how accurate your igntion is by moving the timing 2 degrees and have it showup on a timing light , i mean the little things , like reliabilty , how often does the software crashes, how often are you online seeking software help.

based on your comments it beats everything else hands down. so with all the MS talk it is time for someone to putup or shutup and stop all this ridiculous comparisons to Motec etc..as horse's for course's
you like the system fine , it works for you fine and i'm sure you are happy with it , but your outtake is mis-leading to others who really do not understand the smoke and mirrors deal being thrown at them . :corn:

Theedge is right and there is not enough demand to make it worth while , the focus is on the newer cars ..
alexE that is off the charts , good work ...
respect!

You could... You know... Do a google search for the many cars out there running it, including 800+ HP twin turbo monsters....

Or you could spout off some mental diarrhea with nothing to back it. Whatever works for you and all :rolleyes:

Edit: At the end of the day MS isnt intended for people who have no interest in figuring out the nuts and bolts of things. Its goal isnt to be a dirt cheap plug and play system that requires zero thought and a call to support when something doesnt work. MegaSquirt isnt trying to be the AOL of the engine management world (I am not taking a shot at systems that do have support like TEC3, etc, simply pointing out that people with serious cases of head-sphcinter interaction tend to think MS wants to be like AOL). MS is targetted at the advanced people who want things that many EMS's dont have, who want to be involved in the nuts and bolts, who want a very capable, expandable, affordable system and are willing to read and learn, etc.

Hence its support system of forums and reading and third party sellers works fairly well *for people willing to read and figure things out*. If youre going to knock it for not having support, then its not aimed at you and were just going to laugh at and call you a word that has a I at the front, T at the end, and a D in the middle somewhere for attempting to make fun of it for that.

And before you spout off with the next typical statement that comes up about time being worth something, ill point out that I have yet to send myself a bill for my time for my hobbies. Anyone who uses that BS excuse/reason/etc when relating to hobbies obviously doesnt get the point of having a hobby in the first place.

So in response to your generally useless post, go do a few searches and youll find plenty. None of us MS guys are going to bother posting anymore links for you because to be honest, your attitude has already proved that its a complete waste of our time to attempt to educate you more than we already have. If someone with an actual genuine interest asks, we'll be more than happy.

If you have an actual interest in MS (id be less shocked if the sky turned Guards Red....), read some of the threads here and feel free to ask questions that are sans the attitude of a 6 year old who isnt getting his way and the whole lot of us will be quite happy to answer them (including myself).

Other than that please dont puck this thread up anymore than you already have. Grow the hell up for crying out loud.

Ah, empty attitude. I remember this now. Useless comments that add no merit or substance. Wonderful.

in computer comparison;
megasquirt = linux
most/all others = windows

And tell me what operating systems are used more often in servers: Linux based or Windows Server? Yes, you guessed it, NOT Windows.

MS is not for guys who don't know and/or don't want to know about the "brain" of the car.

I have no problem validating claims with dyno or race proven results. I'll have some very shortly with an MS powered Volvo 740 turbo I'm building for a 13 hour endurance race. The 951 project is stalled at this point due to "geographical differences" (its 3k miles away) but I should have wrenches swinging sometime in the next few months.

I must agree wholeheartedly with Edge.

If you are curious A.Wayne I have a dyno sheet in the early stages of tuning my vehicle posted in my above links. It is running full MS2 Ignition/Fuel.

The car now purrs like a kitten, starts better than OEM, warms up 10x faster, excellent throttle response, develops 7 psi revving at idle...... I could go on and on in comparing it to the stock motronic.

If you are looking for numbers........ my early dyno runs I managed to run 315 rwhp and 320lbft at 16 psi and I am no 'tuner' by any stretch of the imagination.

The next dyno run is scheduled for next month. I have no doubt that the numbers will rival any other stand alone system available.

? I have not managed to crash MS yet ! and I have tried !!!!.......but if it does.......I have my propeller hat on just in case.......... :D

P.S....... this is my daily driver.

I'd also like to add that I'm using MS2 for fueling in my car. It's running better than stock just like Alex's. There are some minor complaints like hot starts, but overall I'm one happy customer.

We are also working on a plug and play system that I'll be putting in my n/a 944. I'd like to do a back to back dyno comparison by the end of summer.

Theegit

all the same garbage , Your hobby must be to watch ignorance grow,
yeah , yeah , i will build this , give me a few more years i,m going to do that wait till i grow a dick ,I will show yah :D
all the same ask a question get rhetoric. ask for proof more rhetoric ,then the personal attacks Ms is not like Linux Ms is a description of you bumpheads you all have MS.
You come on here promoting the merits of MS , i ask for proof ,bam rhetoric , again , not suprised , clown !
Always from the same location too , you guys need to get a life, Put up or shut up show me your POS with 400 + whp with an MS , capable of runnning for more than 30 seconds or STFU..... and stop putting down the other systems as you have nothing , as usual :corn:

danG , thanks for a sensible response , i would love to see more of what is being done with this and the end results, it would help in evaluating the system , for those of us who have no contact with MS .. :corn:

Justin L and alexE your countrymen could learn alot from you , speak to them :(

AlexE, Justin L.

i went thru your links , good work and it was easy to follow your progress , i also was able to see the dyno sheet. i will wait until you say the programming is done for comment. you and JustinL now have something tangible unlike the other talkers , must say that you have not done anything that others with upgraded ECU 's have not accomplished, much less stand alone systems.

Interesting on the knock sensor setup and how you went about adjusting it . Good work :thumbsup:

You know what? I do want an ems that I won't have to tune or tweek or one that is very user friendly so that I may learn at least. Even though i don't want to do it. I just want a system that's affordable, and will make my car run perfectly at any altitude, adjust to all air and fuel requirements automatically. I'm at the point where with my upgrades, I'm looking at over 600 to the wheels and it's the only way I'm going to get there(ems). I just don't want it to cost me an arm and a leg.

What would you consider a fair price for such a system? Where the user puts in a broad set of parameters and the EMS keeps everything tuned such as you speak of.

Regards,
Russell

A. Wayne, I must have missed the part where anyone was putting down the other systems. There's only been one poster in this entire thread with negative comments.

Isn't this something based on autotuning? I still can't figure out with all the sensors available and the speed of processing why something as simple as setting the desired parameters can't be accurately tuned by the computer? If they can be made to adjust suspension, traction, brakes, fuel injection etc by monitoring 1000's of times per second why can't there be an electronic tuning system that can do the same...dependably? When we tune manually we rely on the sensors and we adjust accordingly, usually on a dyno which is not real world environment. If the same sensors are picking up and processing signals while we drive then they could adjust air, fuel, timing, boost etc accordingly. Or am I just dreaming here?

Russel. I have no idea. I just want the car to run at a perfect air fuel ratio, at any altitude, and maybe a few different fuel settings. I don't want to have to tune it after someone installs it. I don't know how to do it. I want to get in and drive. That's all. Once it's done, I want it to be done.

I wouldn't even do it except that from what I'm told, the factory electronics can't correctly run my motor anymore and with the upgrades I'd like to get, it will be even worse. It runs perfectly now but I have Autothority Chips and it runs so rich in the midrange, it goes off the graph. It feels perfect but I do feel it sluggish mid range.

After being on these boards, there's so much that can be done to our cars that I'm almost losing interest out of frustration on what to choose and how to go about getting things done reasonably.

afaik there is no autotune system anywhere near perfection that can do what you want. you need a good guy who knows the ems, and knows howto tune.

you can have a driveable car just by useing autotune a lot, but for that perfection for response etc, you need to do it manually.

Hey Anders, that's the response I get when I mention this. It just seems to be something that wouldn't be too hard for someone that knows what they're doing?
I'm a bit like Joe on this. I don't know how to tune, although I will learn a bit when all the mod's go on soon, but this shouldn't be as hard as it's made out to be.
Patrick

I've talked to quite a few developers of different EMS who explained the complexity of the autotune, and what it's use and limitations are (won't say I understood it all)

autotune might get you 75-85% of the way there, but for that last response, hp, and perfection the systems isn't good enough.

you can probably do the basemap with this, and then get some dynotime and an expert. also just doing highway driving and logging is also useful.

Yes I realize that it's not realistic at the moment, but I still can't see why not. I don't think it will be too far away from being a reality.

I think you will find that closed loop lambda control is a lot more accurate than 75-85%, and a/f is the variable, timing is established when the motor is tuned.

Auto-tune is for air fuel only. Setting the air fuel is the easiest part of running an EMS system.
I always get a chuckle out of the Rennlist fixation on Air fuel ratios – its not that big an issue. Tuning the ignition curve is more complex – and more rewarding!!
As for some other things mentioned - sensors are sensors, most if not all EMS will work with just about any sensor out there.
While I like the DIY MS idea of building your own stuff from scratch – to offer one as a system commercially would be insane. If somebody is competent enough to assemble the MS and get it running they should also be astute enough to make it work. I could tell many stories about customer support…..

Not all Megasquirts are DIY/Build-IY. This beastie is going to win a few over at only ~$400...

http://www.microsquirt.info/uS.jpg

100% pre-assembled, surface mount components. It couldn't be a true PNP as you need to either provide a full engine harness or the end user will have to re-wire, or run new wires for some things. But a 10-step color coded wiring job would still be pretty easy for most guys.

You can also buy the standard MS pre-assembled. I've ordered one from one of the vendors before and the soldering was amazing. It appeared to be done by a robot by looking at the joints. But he has them assembled by NASA cert'd techs instead. Professional pre-assembly runs about a $140 over the <$190 price of the unassembled kit.

Chris I know I'm being a bit of a naive pipedreamer here, but based on the fact that whatever info that is being gathered by the sensors that give us the readings to do any tuning with, then can't they just talk to each other and continually tune the car as you drive. If the driver sets the boost at a desired level, can't the computers figure out the best tune to attain that level and adjust whatever it is that they need to, and we just drive? Are there sensors that can accurately read the octane of the gas in the tank and add this to the info that is being sent to the ems and it figure out what is the best timing, a/f, boost, knock retard etc for the motor?
That's the beauty of not knowing about these issues, you can ask stupid questions like mine. lol
PS did that crate get sent yet? I hope to have block back this week so we need crank soon.
Patrick.

Patrick and I are on the same EXACT page. I do understand that there would be a need to have different fuel settings but only a switch or knob on the dash. I just want to drive the damn thing and know that after I paid to have all the stuff done to my car that it will run perfectly. The technology has to be there. I know it. I just wish someone would get in touch with me and say, I can do this for you. It's this much and you'll have what you want. Period. Everyone I've talked to said they can do it, but...then there's the price. No one is near me so it has to be shipped so that makes it all the more important that when I get it back it has to run perfectly, and not just for a month or two before tweeking needs to be done.

OK, since you asked – here is my two cents on the auto tune stuff.
Getting the air fuel mixture to work – you have a fairly wide range where the mixture is ‘OK’ – from 11:1 to just under 13:1 will produce good power without the risk of a lean failure. 12:1 to 12.5:1 is better – but not much difference in power output.
Timing, on the other hand, has to be pretty accurate – too much advance and the cylinder pressure peaks early causing detonation – engine expires, too little advance and the power goes away quickly and the EGTs go up fast.
The self tuning part? – to self tune you’re A/F mixture you have to have absolute faith that the O2 sensor is correct, and I don’t have that level of faith in any O2 sensor. I do trust a good wideband under controlled conditions but not as a full time mixture controller at full load. One hiccup and the ECU can be told to add a lot of fuel or pull a lot out. I have seen my share of melted wires / failed O2 sensors so that I just don’t want to trust full load running to them. Also – all O2 sensors suffer from heat shift and aging as well as contamination from leaded fuel and certain sealants. I set up my EMS stuff to use the O2 sensor in the loop up to about 5psi and then it runs on internal mapping.
As for the ignition side I do know of a product that can be used to set your timing ‘automatically’ - it cost about $15k. I wanted to get one at the PRI show but I just couldn’t justify it! Other than that setting your timing is part trial and error and ‘best guess’ based on experience. Set it safe and you are giving up HP, set it aggressively and you are risking toasting the engine.
Some folks feel that using the knock sensor to back off on the timing is OK, not me!
A sensor for fuel type/quality? Not that I know of.
Sorry - there is no easy answer to running a multifuel set up – there will always be some mixing of the two fuels in the tank so the tuning will not be ‘prefect’ for each type unless you completely drain the tank.

Theres flex fuel sensors, they just measure the percentage of ethanol in the fuel not the octane.

your average flex-fuel car does not run very aggressive mapping though.

I'm agreeing that ems just isn't there yet that it can autoconfigure, but with technology always going forward, who knows in a few years? read the setup ont he new e92 m3 engine

when tuning you are cutting margins.

we now have a grand total of 3 stations with E85 in our country, but lots more are planned, this is no doubt very cheap racefuel :) all though it smells like my college buddies.

Chris, the hubby/wife DSR team that hosted my trip to PRI bought one of those ion-sensing ignitions. And I know I sound like a broken record, but ion-sensing ignition is one of the primary development projects for upcoming Megasquirt designs.

Read this thread by the "gurus" of MS to see what the almost released microsquirt can handle, as well as what's coming down the pipes. Some exciting stuff for sure.

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=24765

What I REALLY like about megasquirt is that the technology is rapidly evolving and improving, with a growing user and development base, and ZERO of this engineering "cost" is being passed on to the users. In a couple years, all of the functions of that $15k ignition system at PRI will be included, along with impressive datalogging and fuel/boost/auxillaries control, and with a price tag probably under the $1k mark.

This is the link to that $15k ignition system BTW...

http://www.woodward.com/engine/gaseng/smartfire/smart.cfm

http://www.woodward.com/images/ic/smartfire_red.gif

Chris, thanks for your input, I have yet to talk with you. I keep hearing of this megasquirt system. Is there a professional who installs it and is very familiar with it? ?Also, it looks as if what I want isn't available yet. Does that mean I just get vitesse chips with any upgrades I go with and call it a day? If I'm going to throw more cash at my car, I have to justify doing it. This really sucks

Dfast.

IMO considering the amount of money that is invested in that car I would go with a properly setup Tec3. Chris is your guy.
You need the flexibility of a stand alone system at this point.

When you think about it............ other guys are putting in Tec3 into cars that have 1/10 the cost of parts that you have in yours....... Engine management this deep into the game is not something you should go cheap on.

Just my 2 cents........

And I thought Joe had standalone long time ago.....

By todays standards, every seriously taken project should account for standalone as they became much cheaper and offer more.

Chips are ONLY justified on relatively new cars that have decent hardware and ONLY when chip is programmed on the dyno using emulator and ONLY for that one vehicle. Chips that are programmed for some "setup" behind the armchair is worth nothing as for driveability and loss of horsepower.
Even wear influences engine VE.

And as for auto-tune? It's possible to a certain degree but if human needs to know what happened in the combustion chamber couple of engine cycles ago, ECU needs to know what's happening in that moment there to make correct adjustments. This is done by OEMs all the time by monitooring cylinder pressures directly etc.
BTW, Did you know that on WB misfire due to unburnt fuel reads LEAN? And lack of fuel reads also LEAN :)

OK, point taken guys. I should go stand alone ems. Chris, your one of the few guys I haven't spoken to. If you could, email me your number and maybe I can call you and see what you offer and for how much. Thanks.

Well maybe the actuality of the full auto sensing ems or whatever you want to call it is not available, but that would seem to be down to the sensors, not the possibility of the computers processing and acting on the information gathered a 1000 times per sec. It would seem that to do much of the tuning we are still relying on sensors anyway no? I've got nothing against Chris, or Motec or whoever making or selling a good system for our cars and becoming more popular through it's effectiveness and support. More, I am merely theorizing that this should not be as hard to have up and running in our cars as it seems to be?
Really this all stems from the fact that I'm not all that technical but I just want to go out and drive/race my car rather than data-log, download, dyno, and tune half the time and feel safe that it's not going to blow up basically.

I couldn't say it better Patrick...

333pg333, I understand your point very good but there's something most guys who are not familiar with standaolens do not understand too well. If you set up engine management, you basically have to do a job that OEMs do for months and even years: testing the setup in every weather condition and temperature. This is called development nd this is what makes Forumla 1 so expensive, not materials that it's made of.
And they have millions and billions to spend, and even then it takes a while.

If you buy a standalone and someone installs it, he probably can make a good WOT map in half an hour on dyno or road if hes experienced but all the little things take time. For example cold start and warmup: you only have one warmup and then you have to cool the car down.
We live in part of the world where is REAL winter. I'm talking -30 degrees Celsius and in summer theres 35+ degrees Celsius. It takes some time, nothing to do about it. But once you get it right, it works flawlessly. NO FAILURES so far on the tuning/ECU side, only some wiring glitches.

I guess we really need artificisl intelligence! Even then though, you could have all these nice algorithms to interpret sensors etc which would be a big thing development wise, you'd still need to develop at least base maps though to cover you for when there is no input from a sensor. I also think Chris is right when he says he doesn't want to rely on the knock sensor for tuning ignition... this is only be a failsafe.

OK Joe – here is the most important question – what do you want your car to do that it doesn’t do now? It sounds like you have good power output and so far the longevity looks pretty good to. While I am big fan of standalone systems I am also a big fan of the ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’ theory.
Joe’s car is a special case – it is running right at the edge of the performance envelope and just a little mistune will trash the engine. In addition to that Joe wants to be the driver – not the technician (don’t take that the wrong way Joe – I just sense that you want to drive your car not play with a laptop).
This limits the choices a great deal – I feel that it eliminates the MS stuff – it is an enthusiast based system not a ‘turn key’ system. Joe needs a person/company that will install, setup and optimize his management system. If Joe was closer I would love to work with him but the distance is a problem (not insurmountable but it just adds o expense). As somebody pointed out tuning for max output does not take that long (as long as the person knows 944s!) tuning for drivability is a different matter - that can take a while.
“raceboy” is right – development of the full map takes a lot of work – I have been at it for five years and I still find a tweak or two that improves throttle response, cold start or some obscure setting ( I cold soaked a modified 951 down to 0f to get it to start with just the twist of the key)
Joe (or anybody else!) you can get me at 315-636-8716 if you want to chat about this stuff!

the thing about devolopment is so true, I have had my Tec3r for a while most of the time was winter but i still got to drive it here and there. Scott Gomes of UPP gave me a great starting point but every time I go out I come back and make some tweeks. It has not been dyno tuned yet but hopefuly this week, so far I have been trying for a few weeks but do to weather and scheduling conflicts it hasn't happened yet, we are now shooting for this thursday so we will see what happens.

I think that even after it is dyno tuned I will continue be tweeking little things all the time, I don't think with a standalone on a street car you write a map and never touch it again. Playing with it is part of the fun.

The newer motronic 7 found on turbo DBW Audis, VWs, and Porsches is very adaptive, this is like auto tune. It takes info from the coolent temp, intake temp, map sensor, MAF, knock and O2s. With this info it adjusts boost, timing, and A/F. It ajusts to 20% +/-. It also does it very well. If it is over boosting it pullis it back, if intake temps are to hot it pulls a little boost and timing. It will make up for bad gas, or good gas. IMO it is much more advanced than my Tec3r, the only thing is you can't just go in and write a whole new base map like a stand alone. And the devopment must have taken months on an engine dyno, and then the make constant running changes.

Here is another interesting tid bit on the use of sensors for A/F ratio control – there is a time lag introduce due to the location of the O2 sensor – especially a wide band sensor. If you put the wide band sensor in the proper location (after the turbo) there is a time lag from the point of combustion to the point that the o2 content is measured – this varies with RPM (gas velocity). This creates a hysteresis problem (OK, its not a true hysteresis issue but you get the idea).
In the right conditions this leads to a mixture oscillation where the EMS leans the mixture out until the sensor reads lean – by then the actual mixture is way past lean – and then auto corrects in the other direction. You can’t tune this out because it is time/rpm dependent. Fix it for high rpm and you will get a noticeable low rpm oscillation. Damp out the response and the system will not correct fast enough to be useful as a real auto correction system.

Just something to ponder…!

But in theory once youve got the mixture correct using your wideband sensor you can use the faster responding narrowband O2 which is also located preturbo.... Easy if you have two O2 sensor bungs.

Narrow band sensors are very nonlinear when the EGTs go up. Not good for track applications. If you run your EMS with a narrow band sensor in the loop at the track you will run really rich on full boost.
On the old split second units you can dial in as much fuel as you want and never get the blue LEDS to light up once the exhaust is up to track temp.

heaps of my mates have stand alone and i've had it on a few cars and got one for my 951. and hers my rant .
the later motrionic editors and loggers are heaps better than entry level standalone when considering set up effort and features . I also have a few magazines with back to back comparisons they are from about 1990 when there were about 13 or so local different ones .
And as for what best i put autronic as the best then motec then link from NZ.
and after considering features my EMS from NSW aus seems the best budget system its the cheapest thing that has dta log anti lag and mulitcoil about 800 US.
but does not have knock sensing wich is probably better than antilag or multi coil it could save you an engine

I'm working on a group buy for the LINK G3 stand alone. It has knock control, data logging, anti lag, launch control, flat foot shifting, coil packs, igniters base map etc.. For $2500. complete with terminated harness and dash display.

The software is way easier than Autronics and I think its about as good as my Motec m48 but WAY cheaper!

link to website ?

MSII w/ EDIS is as good as anything out there and its only getting better. If you have the time, its by far the best value!

Very first thing that comes up on google.

Link EMS


Rogue

Thanks Rogue, you beat me to it.

I forgot to mention that it also comes with the dash display.

NP. Does the Link accept our reference signal type? Or is a crank-trigger / cam-trigger setup required?



Rogue

It uses a 24-1 cam trigger

It can also use 60-2, the stock Porsche Crank Trigger and many more. The 24-1 runs off the Cam I think. No need for a Crank trigger with this.

All I can say is wow!! Check out the new Link EFI. Its amazing what it does and for the price.

As Dave says, the Dash display is really cool too.

If Dave is putting together kits for $ 2500.00 all I can say is, what are yopu waiting for!! If EFI is what you want, this EFI is one of the best out there now and a 944 kit for $ 2500.00!! Wow!! What value.

Yes it uses all the stock sensors :) I had one on my 944 turbo.

I also have the new Link G3 on my v8 twin turbo project :) and one on my race car... such good value.

to run sequential injection you need cam trigger.

Is it possible to give a generalised answer to this? Just how much real world difference would most people notice running Standalone v's a well sorted Piggy-back? I know that's a pretty open ended question but feel free to give an open ended answer. :p

Dave

Where're you putting this group buy together?

Yes, Once I get all the official pricing and parts list, I need to run it by John D.

Thanx. :D

the difference is in the ability to tune, re-tune, and re-re-tune the car as the need arises or conditions and parts change.

no two motors are the same, so every motor needs a unique tune to run optimally. this also explains why the same chip might make more/less power on different cars even though the cars are identical.

there's your generalized answer. :)

It can be triggered by many different triggers. The stock triggers on the flywheel can be used. If so, a special trigger board needs to be fitted, (no charge) at time of supply. All of the other trigger options are digital and can be selected in the software.

A 24-1 wheel that can be attached to the stock Cam wheel and the Hall sensor fitted in the Cover. This allows sequential control. The stock sensors without a cam sync can only be group fuelled.

The Ignition will be sequential if the Distributor is used. Wasted spark can be run off the stock sensors. With the 24-1 cam wheel, 4 individual Coils can be used sequentially.

I think the stock sensors with either wasted spark or stock Ignition is OK. The only issue is the sensor could fail.

The Cam trigger is far better and will not have any temperature issues.

wow we realy are stitching you guys up on these ecus . heres a handful of prices of what these ecus cost from my local vendors in rough in my head conversion to US $ about 10% accurate
Wolf $1200 plugin
Haltech $1600
Motec $2400
Link $1600
Auronic $1600

most of them work better with a trigger kit $150


as for the question above it seems to be a feture of the cheaper ecus that they will have
"duel MAP" function meaning two or so maps are stored on the ecu and with a switch you may be able to switch between them
almost all of them allow you to download a new map from PC .
They mostly have old rs 232 interphase so its not easy to use a small plalm PC.

Sad thing about these units is the more features they give you the more you feel you have to mess with them to get your moneys worth Its a hole other sub culture i'm hooked in and i say if you don't know alot about it don't bother with it none of them are easy .
I put them on my car as abadge of honar and for the challenge of doing it i think the latter advanced motronic hacking methods are better easier quicker and even at my ecu prices more cost effective . er excluding megasquirt of corse that stuff is bargan boonanza.

Fully assembled top of the line MS2, v3.0pcb $400
Unassembled MS1, v2.2pcb complete kit $140

...just for comparison's sake. :thumbup:

Does that come with everything needed to work in a 951?



Rogue

add the amount of time to get it actually working on a 951 and you have your difference in price.

ms2 = 2+years of labor

wolf3d = 2hours, tops.

Yeah the mega squirt is mostly for engineering grads to do it really well... unless you dont mind tinkering a lot which can be fun anyways.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Did you count your engine rebuild, a custom harness, engine build up, etc etc etc in your two hours?

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

no, because it's plug and play and does not require an engine rebuild, custom harness, etc, etc.

Neither does an MS.... But you happily compared the time difference between MSers almost all of whom are building up their cars/engines versus your Wolf install.

MS will use the stock harness. None of us that I know of chose to use it, instead replacing it because its a peice and we can do better.

My opinion is that the MS system is only bought for the savings had by those who will build it themselves. Its not bought because it offers any other advantages over the other systems discussed here.

Yes, a good quality aftermarket EMS that's properly tuned can provide noticeable improvements over piggybacks. Part of the problem is quality and tuning. Most modern aftermarket EMS are pretty high quality and offer plenty of advanced features, so that's not too much of an issue. If there's one thing I have learned, it's that tuning is a fine art and there really aren't too many individuals out there that can truly do an excellent job tuning (I sure as hell can't! ;)). I've seen lots of hack @ss tunes on a wide variety of cars, and then proper tunes done on the same cars gain as much as 100whp just from improving over the generic stuff done by an amateur. The nice thing about modern aftermarket EMS is there are so many advanced options that there are a ton of possibilities and tons of little improvements you can make to a car. Got problems with a sluggish/rough powerband below 2000rpm? No problem with an aftermarket ems as you usually have a larger number of load sites and can tune at smaller rpm intervals and over a wider rpm range so you can actually have drivability at extremely low rpm (to some degree). Having problems with unequal runner airflow through an intake manifold? No problem because when properly setup in the right configuration, many aftermarket ems can allow you to individually tune cylinder fuel and ignition loads so you never have to worry about running lean in 1 cylinder again. Anyways, there's plenty more examples where that came from. The cool thing is this advanced technology is leaking into the piggyback market as well, so there are piggybacks out there that can allow you to convert to sequential injection, individually tune cylinders, convert to a CDI or coil on plug setup, etc etc. Technology is just plain awesome! ;)

:rolleyes:

the apparent quick set up of the wolf is impressive but at the price people pay for it and its massive lack of features the motonic editotors like max tune kill it ..
sooner or later someone will offer the megasquirt set up with a trigger and a base map and a few sensors for around 8or 900 this will make sense

I won't delude myself or others claiming the MS is a giant killer. Its properly priced in the market. Even at the pennies on the dollar spent compared to other systems, most people steer as far away as possible. Many are simply skeptical of something at this level that is completely DIY. Rightfully so in many cases, an MS build and install is only as good as the installer. But the system itself isn't something to just roll your eyes at.

Obviously 2+ years of install is an exaggeration, but its certainly NOT a single evening, or even weekend proposition. Figure about 100 hours minimum for your first install, if you're not blazing entirely new territory. My last two installs have been completely unique, so teething was a bit more annoying than a strait forward install. I'd still group the 951 in the completely unique category, I think there's only a handfull of 944 MS'ers, and none are using the same configuration. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.

I agree that some enterprising individual could make a mint offering PNP systems for a huge range of vehicles in the $800-1000 range. DIY-Autotune recently released a fully assembled PNP system for 1st Gen Miatas for only $700. Thats an excellent deal for those guys. Some cars lend themselves to PNP more than others, our cars have the separate boxes for fuel and ignition that could give some trouble. I'm positive that someone could get the MS to control the stock KLR box if they really knew what they were doing. I don't think I could do it though, and I want to run COP ignition so the benefits are limited without re-working the KLR as well.

(Edited for missing the "NOT" in estimating how long it takes to install!)

can you list these features the wolf lacks? i don't recall any when i did my comparison research. if anything, i think the wolf has more features.

Thanks Travis, but I guess that doesn't quite answer my vague question so I'll try and be more specific. Using a good Piggy-back with a good w/b should give most people a car that runs very well out of the box and it has the stock Motronic knock detection on it's side. With an ems having those abilities that you mentioned (and I'm aware that there are many more) they would be good if you were having major probs with the p/b. However if it ain't broke etc. I think that the other appeal of an ems is the nagging thought that maybe the engine is not running to it's potential. I guess this could become an expensive exercise just to scratch an itch. You could find that after changing to an ems and going through what sound like in most cases quite a lot of tuning ($) that you may gain only minimal differences if at all. It's not knowing if this is the case that creates the curiosity. Another thing I don't understand is 'Launch Control'? How can an ems have any control over our wheels? Unless we put in some sensors that can detect tyre slip?
Are there unbiased comparisons of aftermarket ems'? It seems like many people have their favourites, but Motec is certainly priced above the pack. Why?
For people like me who aren't up to speed on these sort of things and their pro's and con's it would be good to find a layman's guide and I'm sure I'm not Robinson Crusoe on this.

Quote: "The Cam trigger is far better and will not have any temperature issues"

This is NOT correct.

Best place for trigger was, is and always will be crankshaft. Do you have any idea how many degrees timing belt/chain can play on various rpm?
And when you find that out, think if that inaccuracy in spark advance can cause problems on turbocharged car.

Always use crank trigger and when in need for full sequential, use cam sync. On certain good EMS'es you can use "cam sync" from crank also (installing separate pin) and have sync signal without sloppyness.

Launch control is purely rpm controll at start line: you have a switch installed (on the clutch pedal, steering wheel etc) and pushing it sets the rpm to predefined level and lets you hold the throttle fully open. Then just release the switch and go. Also you can configure the antilag on launch that retards timing and richens the mixture to get energy to turbine and have it spinning.

Knock detection is not going to save the engine if it isn't properly tuned. If it is, then there's no need for that other than safety (bad fuel, extremely high intake temp, failing fuel pump etc). Modern engine managements have MAT retard implemented also.

A true "launch control " system allows you to set a predetermined launch RPM which is controlled by the ecu program , It will also allow you to program the amount of wheel slip percentage you would like for an optimum launch....typically a first gear launch conntrol .... Most stand alone ecu's who advertise a Launch control system is not true, as , it is nothing more than a stutter start being passed off as " launch control " this is very commom practice amongst the hey look at me new to the game ecu's , so buyer beware as most will not do as they claim , good marketing to catch those who just compare features and prices ....

Raceboy, for you to have a cam sensor , it kinda have to be on the cam, lol, the idea is to effectivly know where the cam sync is and to deal with any hysteresis, also on variable cam engines they are run full closed loop , so a sensor per cam is a must , with constant monitoring to know the position of each camshaft ...in relation to the crankshaft ..

Travis , yes you do need wheel speed sensors for a launch control system and for TC. While you can have TC by gear ratio with just the front wheels being monitored for speed , the more sophisticated systems have all 4 wheels monitored ...
Regarding Factory vs standalone ems , horse for course's, it all depends on what you are starting with for a factory system and where do you wanna go with your modifications... A GOOD STANDALONE DONE correctly
will outperform the factory ecu in most gategories , but not all for street use, move it to the track and it's a no brainer .......

I guess it's the 'done correctly' part that's the real issue...

Well it would be the same for the factory ecu upgrade , piggy back etc and based on the squiggly line dyno sheets some have posted here they have there issues too ....

I think the Cam trigger option is for those who wish for an easier install. As for belt causing some error, sure, but just how many tuned 944 Turbo's are tuned that close to knock? I have seen first had, my own engine, run on an engine dyno and the timing reference at the crank was dead on with the cam sync only. There are many EFI systems out there that even with a Crank sensor have timing shifts. Use a reluctor sensor and you certainly will have some shift when fitted to the Crankshaft.

It was and is never meant that the Cam trigger sensor is better than at the crankshaft. Some just take everything to the tenth degree here. Put everything into perspective. You need to install a trigger and do not wish to fit a Crank wheel for ease of installation, then consider the cam wheel only. Tune the engine with this in mind. If the engine is tuned with this wheel, the offset if any will be relative. Tuned within a couple of degrees of knock properely, I wager you sir there will be no knock using a Cam wheel over a Crank wheel. My orginal opinion was that the stock crank sensors are so problematic with temperature, the Cam sensor is an alternative. One that works really well in practice. Get off your theory couch and try something different sometimes. You may be pleasantly surprised.

I have used them all and I'm speaking from experience, not just plain theory. How many cars have you equipped with standalone? I have 25+ and 4 or 5 of them needed to be converted from CIS or carbs to EFI first. So I've got some first hand experience.

On 951, best thing is to use stock sensors as it provides extremely good trigger resolution (remember, it has 130 teeth) though requires a capable ecu to take advantage of it (i.e. fast CPU).

You should update your information on sensor characteristics also. VR sensors are more resistant to temperature changes than HALL sensors, though they are very sensitive to noise on lower rpms (like cranking).

I'm talking all this only because there is no point in changing to something worse if there is a good trigger system already present. If we would talk about converting from carbs or CIS (= no trigger present at all) then it comes down to goals.
On normally aspirated engines couple of degrees here or there doesn't matter so much (at least when not in 100+ hp/liter area), but on high-boost applications I wouldn't make any compromises that influence timing accuracy, too much to win and sadly, loose also.

i herd that the magnetic pickups suffer from inacuracy as the trigger edge is less defined i think it is infact trouble with the cheaper ecus they have trouble seeing it .You here less conplaints from those with expensive ecus as i suggest Raceboy uses. also many cheper ecus cant count to 132
as for the wolf i think when i considered it it was lacking antlag was short of spare inputs and out puts and had poor trigger compadibilty may be datta loging as well

The stock VR sensor is prone to fail. It has happened to me on 2 occasions.

As for the number of ECU's I have used. Not 25. It did not take 25 to understand what I am saying either. Not trying to argue with you here either. Just that some ECU's even with Crank Triggers do not give good accuracy. I can think of several I have had that were like this.

All VR sensors retard themselves at RPM. It is a function of their design. As for using the stock triggers. I have used them with an aftermarket ECU. The problem is the sensor failure rate. Even the stock ECU divides the tooth count down to usable numbers.

AS for using the Cam wheel Trigger, I have used this on a 944 and I know of others who have also. It is very accurate and works well. The design was thought out with testing done. An engine was put on an engine dyno and run up to 7000 RPM and the Crank and Cam wheels were photographed under a strobe light. The 2 reference points were matched at every 500 RPM to see how much deviation was present. There was almost none. The new Cam trigger wheel was then decided to be 24-1 and the teeth were designed a certain width to always be in sync with any deviation that may happen.

The ECU I used used this 24-1 wheel and the reference mark on the Crank Pulley was checked against the Ignition map. It was dead on at each RPM checked and the mark was rock solid.

Again, the 24-1 Cam wheel was produced not to take the place of any Crank trigger wheel. It was to add to the many options this particular ECU application can use. For those who do not wish to use the stock sensors, and wish to run sequenially, this is another alternative instead of fitting a new Crank and Cam sensor. Well thought out and proven to boot.

Excuse my ignorance on these matters, but does this system cope with any belt stretch? Is belt stretch an unlikely possibility? I am really in the dark on these matters and am probably asking a stupid question but I am considering to install the Link G3 system that Dave's offering with the 24-1 cam trigger and am just trying to consider any relevant issues. Thanks, and feel free to expound on your experience as I am soaking much of this up.

i have the wolf and it has lots of spare input/outputs, custom (or stock) trigger compatability/configurability, and better data logging than anything else i've checked so far.

read this thread;
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ghlight=wolf3d

and this (outdated, but still pretty accurate) review;
http://members.shaw.ca/sharkeysgarag...ems-part1.html

M42,
The camshaft turns at half speed, why use a 24-1 for a trigger? why would factory sensors be unreliable? this is interesting could you Please tell me where i can obtain the sensors you are talking about, what current application are you working on?

Is it possible to run an EMS in conjunction with this knock controller? I have read a bit on this and it seems very good.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/

well that depends if you ecu is able to do somthing effective with the knock signal . I'm working on it at the moment when i get back home see my thread "how klr inerphases with dme"
but there are heaps of knock moniters you can get to hook to the sensors left on the block you can then hook them up to a massive shift light with a $ sticker on it to get you lift your foot .

Hah, great concept with the $$$ signs and that's EXACTLY what it is too. :D
I suppose you could just run those 2 independently or in parallel? Did you check that knock controller out, it looks very good to me. It used to be, or still maybe sold by Lindsey. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who is running it?

Yes, it runs sort of like a 951's KLR. The only downside is you need to have your ignition system planned out in advance. When you buy a SafeGuard you choose the number of "channels" it has. Each channel is for an ignition output, so if youre running wasted spark on a 4 cyl you need 2 channels, COP then 4 channels.

It takes the ignition signal from the ECU whatever it may be, then delays it if theres knock before passing it on to the ignition driver (coilpack, etc etc).

To say there is no such thing as belt stretch is no right. However, this is something that is more thought to happen than actual. I know that when I used this system there was no signs of stretch. It was checked on the dyno at all speeds. The testing was done to see how big to make the teeth in width. This way, if any stretch was present. the tooth would never leave the sensor.

As for 24-1, this was chosen as its a common tooth count and the software was already written. The missing tooth gives the sync and on ther Cam allows for sequential fuel and Ignition.

The system I use can run the factory sensors, 60-2 on the Crank, 12,24,36 etc. It all comes down to what triggering the system can support. I chose the 24-1 as I wanted sequential control and saw no reason to fit another wheel to the crank and one on the Cam.

A Wayne, PM me and I will tell you who to call for the sensors, the wheel etc.

yes! that is the best knock solution !

http://gallery.silentmedia.com/d/58675-1/IMG_2025-2.jpg

this defeats the purpose of a good ems solution. why not convert your motor to carbureted while you're at it?

lindsey is the wolf3d.

so does it pull timing like the klr i remember considering it years ago and for what it costs your better served going with high end ecu that has it on board
link motec autronic.
i still think i will be able to use the klr when with my ems when i do the research

it does pull timing even better than the klr. up to an insane 40 degrees which is more than any other standalone, although anything over 20degrees is overkill. :)

it can even pull boost just like the stock porsche system, which no other standalone ems can do so far.

read the reviews i've linked in my earlier post on here.

maybe it's just me, but i'd rather go with a product from a company that specializes and lives and dies by knock control rather than a one-stop-kmart-style-shop ecu that attempts to do it all and does it poorly.

motec is great, but it also costs double the price of the wolf and is still not plug-and-play nor is it easier to use.

Unless the J&S is a 'special version' made, then it is limited to 20degrees of ignition timing retard @ 2degree increments. (selectable to 1degree increments for a total of 10degrees retard).


Rogue

with the high end ecus like motec and autronic you are limited only by your imagination you can programe and input to to change any output anyway you like directly or inversly . a motec or autronic can do it toochay nize but yes you do need to be a profeesor of efi to do it yes its tricky. But the LINK nz ecu does run knock conrol and does pull timing and boost .
And as for one stop kmart shop ecus compared to the almighting safe gauard gurus
SKOFFF!!!
Motec wrote the book on all things efi in 1984 and then some of those guys started Autronic and all of them would take safegaurd to school.

My understanding from talking to Motec and Autronic is that they don't yet have knock control... Motec said they can only log it at this stage and the Autronic distributor said it's planned but that has been the case for the past couple of years. In any case, Wolf is also has a knock control module that will be released once testing is complete.

There is also a new J&S model.

using my soap box to step down off my high horse for a minute to ask . so the wolf is working out ok for you guys ??
i will give them credit they are the only one i know that offer 944 in kit form .
and you say you have heaps of spare out puts so if you run 4 injector outputs and four coils how many spare outputs do you have to run boost control etc ?
i feel i was a little hasty ruling it out for lack of gimmiky antlag
and it seemed to cost about 30% more than what i have with antilag.

but if the expierence of applying the ecu is easy to access as it seems to be for wolf you cant put a price on it .
My ecu is better in "theory" than the wolf but until it runs on my car i'm full of **** .
someone should have told me

Not sure about the V400 that most are using but I've attached a spec sheet for the V500 - mine should arrive in the next few days.

OK, I have bit my tongue long enough…..
Here is my take on the EMS issues – and I won’t even get in to brand names!
There are couple of reasons for going down the EMS route –
• Accuracy
First - Why would you want to bother with installing a setting up an EMS system without striving for the best accuracy? Are you really going to go with a cam sensor (half as accurate as a crank sensor by definition) because the installation is easier? As this point I would like to say that if you are looking to do this the easiest way instead of the most accurate – then stick to the Motronic stuff.
Second – reuse existing sensors / harness – why bother? Technically the stock sensors are just fine for what they do – but give me a break, they are 20 +/- years old. The TPS is a well known problem and the heat damaged harness is a very common issue. The EMS is only as good as the data begin sent to it and the ability to send signals back to various devices. If you are going to do it…do it right.
Third – crank position sensor – find out how it works. Some systems – regardless of tooth count, only calculate the crank position once every revolution. This can result in some significant errors when the engine is accelerating or deceleration rapidly.
Fourth - The ignition system is an important as the fuel system – perhaps more important.
Fifth – Knock Detection. Don’t bet your life on it – the same goes for O2 sensors. At best they are ‘guides’ and they are not exact instruments. If you EMS is tuned well and it is reliable then the knock sensor is not critical. If you plan on relying on a knock sensor to keep your motor together, well then you are not tuning it very well. The same goes for O2 sensors – they are fine for off load mixture manipulation but using them in the loop under load is just asking for a problem.
• Reliability
This goes for design, manufacture and support. How do you know your system of choice is really doing what it says it is doing? Is the hardware / software really completely bug free?
If you want a good way (at least in my opinion) to tell if a system / manufacturer is doing a good job then go to a road race and see what people are running. To last in that environment the product needs to be robust (hardware and software).
As for the newer ‘flashy’ looking software – sure it looks cool and promises a lot…..but so does each new version of Windows! The real purpose of an EMS product is to do its job accurately and dependably – Bells and whistles are nice but that’s not what is about.
Support. Simple enough, if you don’t have it you are screwed.
Enough of my soapbox. Some will listen, some will not.
Have fun!!!

Wrong, others can pull boost as well.

:confused:

I would rather go with a dependable system and a good tuner so that you won't depend on knock control. You will only ever get into knocking if you have done something wrong (either in the tuning or in operating the engine with parameters other than what it was tuned for). All this perseverating of knock control makes me think that people are not tuning correctly and hoping that the ECU will save their ass.
While I am still on the soapbox – what’s with the flat shifting crap? If you want to flat shift buy an automatic. Learn to drive for christ’s sake.

It seems that the issue of using the Cam sensor instead of a Crank sensor keeps coming back. I never once suggested that it was any more or less accurate. I agree the Crank sensor is more accurate given all other things been to.

I would suggest that whatever system you use, best to check how the tooth count is used by the software. To suggest that to do the installation the easiest way instead of the most accurate and then you use a system that divides the tooth count lower than the Cam count is what it looks like.

There are so many systems out there to chose from. Some better than others. Some are sold as more than they are. It all comes down to experience. If a Cam sensor and the system used still produces a more accurate result than other systems that use only a Crank Sensor then the issue is mute. Often generalizations are used or promoted here in order to make a statement or for other reasons.

I have used many systems in my past and still to thios day use 2 types. Either brand is not important, what is is that the application is well tested to ensure ANY user of sensor location results in accuracy.

others can;
1) pull timing when knock is detected and then
2) when knock is still detected, pull boost?

this is news to me. can you name these others ? i could not find a single one other than wolf when i searched about a year ago.

chris, we went over this and i'll mention it again.

at the very least, you need knock control for when you get bad gas. on a daily driver, i've gotten bad gas more than once. some buddies have even put 92 octane in and found out that it was most likely 89 octane being sold as 92.

if they didn't have knock timing/boost control, their motors could have taken some damage.

can you explain what exactly 'antlag' is ?

Only if they don’t have the ability to understand what is going on and simply lift their right foot a tad.
You do understand that if you keep running the system with the knock induced timing retard you will really heat up your headers / cross over pipe. EGT’s will go way up. Damage will be done. Exhaust valves burnt. Crossover pipes warped.
So, at the risk of sounding a little porky, if you know your way around an engine and the EMS stuff knock control is a nice extra but definitely not the deciding factor on what EMS to get , if you are relying on it to save your butt on a regular basis then you should not be playing with an EMS powered set up.
BTW - Must be some great gas stations over in your area, that doesn’t happen around here.
PS – Just so everybody understands my position – the Tec3 / TecGT EMS products I work with have a fine programmable knock detection and timing retard system. I use it for only a certain RPM range because the noisy nature of the 8v engine will give you false readings and trip your knock detector. Knock detectors are not infallible.

MegaSquirt can. Has been able to for as long as its had boost control. There are probably more since theres plenty of standalones out there that the Porsche crowd doesnt seem to use.

If you want 'real' knock detection - here it is. I met with the designer last year. Very nice stuff. http://www.woodward.com/engine/smartfire.cfm
It costs about as much as a good 951.

if you mean 'when you hear/feel knock, lift your foot off the throttle' as a solution, i think it is not fast enough, no matter how fast your reflexes might be.

assuming you have the reflexes of an olympic athlete, by the time you actually hear/feel knock, it would most likely already be too late, as the motor would have been knocking under WOT and full boost for at least two seconds, if not more. how many times does a cylinder fire at 5000rpm in two seconds? more than 83 times!

i used to believe in the 'you can hear/feel knock and lift your foot to save the motor' theory as well. i found out how inaccurate that theory was after getting a visible knock gauge that shows me when timing is being retarded. by the time you actually hear/feel knock, timing has already been pulled around 2-3 degrees. there's simply no way your reflexes can beat the computer.

i guess washington does have bad gas, but i also drive all over the u.s. and i've had bad gas in california and oregon as well as many other states. there was even one time when a gas company admitted to distributing bad gas, though these admissions are rare;
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...yndication=rss

in any case, like you've already mentioned, if you're going to go standalone, why not do it right? i believe including full knock protection gives you the best possible standalone and i'm sure i'm not the only one.

here's the knock gauge;
http://gallery.silentmedia.com/d/58573-2/IMG_1933-2.jpg

i'm aware megasquirt can, but it's not a plug-and-play, nor is it a commercial solution.

you say there are 'probably' more. i'm telling you that there isn't. i've already searched and didn't find a single one. this was, in fact, one of my deciding points on which ems to get.

Nize your right, knock is bad... Yes and true, but the thing is that you can't really trust any basic universal system. Sure it can be good as a backup system but don't put your money the J&D safeguard will save your engine (read ass) every time and no matter the tune.

there's nothing wrong with my tune, my car is tuned just fine. :)

i'm referring to the knock protection as a backup, just like the porsche factory system.

I agree. Tune the engine properly the first time. Manually. Do not rely upon Knock detection to make up for poor mapping.

Get a good knock listening device and tune until you hear knock just starting. Then back off 2 degrees and go onto the next maping mark. For this who need to know of a good listening device, PM me and I will tell you. This is a fantastic tuning tool.

I have seen Ignition tuning done on a dyno many times and what i saw once really made sense. The timing value generates no knock noise. The Torque is acceptable. Take 2 degrees out and see if the Torque drops. If it doesn't, adding 2 more degrees will net no further Torque gains but will possibly generate knock.

WTF are you talking about? Not everyone cares about dyno glory numbers.

Two recent Motec 951's made 515hp @ 1bar and 545 @ 1.3bar. The first has an aftermarket intake and exhaust, the second uses a factory untouched intake and manifolds. No knock sensor is necessary. Both of these cars run not just sprint races but enduros as well. They are race cars and get pounded on every time out.

Besides, who needs the extra weight??? :)

BTW, we also made 1000+hp with a TT 3.6L engine for a prototype 993. Guess what? Two turbos, four cams, 24 valves, 12 injectors, 2 widebands and ZERO knock sensors. All with a Motec M880.

EXACTLY!! Dude, you get it.

I think (hope) he meant Motronic, which for some sounds very close to Motec.

As to this subject, VEMS has knock detection and timing pull. Not sure about boost reduction.

Unless the Motec is running an LS1 swap or HUGE turbo 3.1DOHC... then how about a dyno sheet?



Rogue

Not to sound rude or anything but, how about taking a step back and simply listening and learning from those, like Chris White, that have been messing with aftermarket ems' for awhile and know what they are doing. You're doing a lot of speculating based on theory. How about looking at what works in real life. I constantly see you and several others here stating how it's so improbable to live with a non-knock controlled ems. Guess what? A majority of people in most car communities using aftermarket ems' are usually using units that don't have knock control. Go take a look at some race stuff, and you'll see a huge abundance of Motec's, Autronics, etc. Hmm, I wonder why that is? But the 951 has knock control stock, so they must ALL be wrong? :roflmao: Plenty of people in plenty of car communities get a long just fine without knock control. Reiterating what Chris said, a GOOD tune should be the primary focus. Safety measures like knock control are nice and all, but you're making a fuss about a non-issue. As far as the Wolf being able to maintain a safety boost mode, that's simple. I don't know of any current plug and play 951 aftermarket ems kit that offers it, but it's something that would be simple as hell to implement in ANY setup so there really isn't anything special about that. All you need is some sort of auxilliary input setup with the ems to activate a bleed valve/solenoid once a certain preset boost level is reached. Most aftermarket ems' have extra aux. inputs for features like that or variable valvetrain actuation, etc. The Wolf setup has a few neat features, but it's nothing ground breaking or particularly special IMO.

Anyone that thinks Motec sucks needs to convert their 951 to carbs since I'm sure they'd also believe it would make more power. :rolleyes: Motec's can be such a monstrous pain in the MF'in @ss to tune with all of their in depth features, but when fully tuned and tuned right, I think a huge number of people here would be simply amazed at the difference in drivability. Believe me on that one. If someone can't understand why, leave the speculating to those that can.

remember, he never said at what rpm, Its possible. A well built race motor will pull these kind of numbers.

i'm not doing any speculating, i'm using real-life examples and first-hand experience. are you? what system are you running in your car and how long have you been running it?

so far in your post you are speculating;
1) knock control is not necessary
2) boost control is easy to implement

i've found that most people who slam knock protection do so because they don't have it working properly on their cars, and use the 'if it's tuned you don't need it' excuse. that excuse doesn't work once you get a bad tank of gas. of course, track-only cars rarely, if ever, get bad gas so it's all fine and dandy for track-only solutions, not so for a daily-driven street solution.

if you're going to bring up the 'track-proven' argument, every 951 that's track-raced (and actually wins races) around the pacific northwest uses wolf3d and have been for over 10 years. can you say that for any other aftermarket ems on the market today? what does that tell you?

The Wolf 3D is the control ECU for an n/a 944 race series here...

So far as the Knock control issue... a couple of observations:

It appears from his posts that Chris White and others are assuming that knock contol is either being used to correct poor tuning or as a fine tuning device simiar to how an O2 operates in closed loop;

As pointed out by a couple of others, this is a poor way to approach things - peak power is typically a couple of degrees prior to knock and leaving it for the knock control device to constantly pull timing and/or boost is also not a safe approach.

However, nothing Nize has said has indicated this is his approach - in fact, he says he has properly tuned his car! He is simply using knock control to protect against issues that may arise in spite of a good tune... bad gas, excessive blow by etc.

A good knock control unit will detect knock before you or I would ever pick it up... special equipment is used when dyno tuning to detect knock early - this is not used by the average driver when just driving. The system Nize has also features a gauge to give him feedback on what is happening... if he is getting knock counts, this tells him - I better look into something.



Sorry, but I fail to see the downside to knock protection if used correctly. I don't think anybody is saying it is wrong to use a system without it, just expressing a preference for using a system with it.

2.5l redline @ 7300rpm. Have dyno sheet. It is only on paper so I will have to get it, scan it and post. And yes it is a big turbo.

BTW, you have seen the motor before. It's posted in the "Trick 951" thread.

Here is the second motor run on a chassis dyno after install in car. The blow off valve had too weak of a spring and above 5500rpm would open and bleed off boost so the torque trailed off. After my customer drove the car he didn't care that we could make more tq with a different valve. It was fast enough for him.

So which is better , 1 :to_order: or 2: :to_order: :to_order: count

But what if the :to_order: count is not in the requency range of your sensor
how would you determine low frequency :to_order: , from high, frequency or noise from the cam/ valve, clutch etc...

the point is an aftermarket generic :to_order: sensor is a waste of time as the sensors and filtering system would have to be designed for that specific engine operation and frequency in order to tell this :to_order: from this :banghead:

Countless hrs would have to be spent on the dyno designing the filtering system and knock count frequency for it to be an effective tuning tool. It would be like using a narrowband O2 to adjust your fuel curve ,,,, it's better than nothing but in the end you are pissing in the wind ......and yes a 951 race motor will pull 500 bhp @ 1 bar .........

here's an idea:

i've already mentioned at least three things that the wolf3d can do that other commercial standalone systems generally can't;

1) plug-and-play by simply swapping out the dme and klr, utilizing the stock wiring harness and all stock sensors
2) integrated knock protection by timing retard
3) second stage knock protection by pulling boost

instead of crying sour grapes, why don't all the other guys who are actually running other commercial standalone systems point out features that may be unique to those systems? i'm genuinely curious, as i've done my homework but i know i don't know everything about all the commercial systems available now.

this does not include megasquirt, which can be customized to do everything except wash your dishes. :)

Nize
Unless the knocksystem was designed for the 951 as explained before , it is a nice feature to have , kinda like having closed loop via narrow band , I'm Positive if you are running it as you state you will have ,

1. Performance that will be unstable...
2. A car slower than what it is really capable off..

on the plus side ,

1. you will get protection from bad gas or octane which is lower than what it was tuned for .

2. protection from bad injectors , over boost etc...

Both situation can be compensated for by a knowledgeable user , but yes for an average person not keen to such stuff , it is safer with the knock setup...

If this was your top priority then you have the system for you , but you seem more interested in a direct comparision of wolf vs the rest as oppose to what is technically better and why and since you are the person tuning the car , the best system is the one you are most comfortable with , does,nt make it the best , just the best for you ...

Number 1 is a real strong point towards the Wolf and I wished there were more PnP solutions. Building a complete new harness is a nice option, but it would be nice not to have it as a must to switch to a standalone.

Number 2 and 3 is configurable with any standalone that has a few aux inputs/outputs.

I spec'ed out a simple solution using DTA P8Pro and PLX R500 that altered timing and a/f-ratios using knock and EGT inputs.
If knock was detected timing was retarded. But retarded timing rises EGT and is potentially almost equally dangerous. So when the EGT got higher and higher the a/f ratios got richen up.

I did not include a boost change in that setup but it would have been possible.

That setup was meant for myself but I ended up with a simplified approach.

This 'discussion' seems to be rotating up it's own....I don't think that there's anything Nize has said to imply that he is running at less than premium tune. Hell, he may be but you can't presume just based on his desire to protect his engine with a backup. Why can't he be tuned on the edge of no return as some of you are virtually recommending. 'Hey if you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space' seems to be the catchcry of one or two out there. Ok let's look at it this way. If whatever system you guys prefer to the Wolf came along and said to you after you've done all this cutting edge tuning, 'Hey guess what, we've got a knock control that will work in with your current system and we'd like you to try it for free'. What would you say? 'No thanks, I don't need that **** because my tuner is da man and he can't possibly be wrong'. No, I didn't think so. You'd probably ask why have they decided to introduce that now? They'd probably say 'Because we've only just perfected it'
I can't see the problem if Nize or anyone else wants to run that as a backup. Nowhere has he stated that he is relying on that to tune with has he? Nobody is disagreeing with anyone else that the tuner and the backup is most vital. Maybe I'm being naive in wanting to protect my ever increasing money pit. In fact if I was told that I was running at 5% or more under my absolute potential, that would do me fine. I'll run it to 100% when you guys decide to sponsor me. :evilgrin:
PS I have no alliance to Wolf or to Nize. In fact I'm looking at another brand.

OK, to be more to the point – I don’t have any issues with the Wolf stuff, its seems OK but I haven’t used it so I won’t pass judgment on it either positive or negative.
The point that I am picking on (sorry nize but this is how I see it) is that the Wolf is being touted as the great answer because of the knock detection and boost reduction / ignition retard function. Sure, that is a nice thing to have but it is not, at least in my mind, a primary reason to buy into an EMS system. From my experience I haven’t found any aftermarket knock detection system (other than the smartfire) to be highly accurate. You need to do a serious amount of spectral analysis to determine what the knock signature of the modified engine is – way beyond anything other than an auto manufacturer is capable of. The Tec3 / TecGT has knock detection and timing retard programmability and I do look at it during tuning but once tuned I only leave it in the loop at certain RPM ranges. Very similar to what I do with O2 sensors.
The other point that I haven’t dwelled on but it keeps being mentioned – and again this is just my view – the concept of upgrading to a EMS set up and reusing a 20 year old harness and sensors just does not make sense to me. Especially the wiring harness part. I have seen way more bad harness that I care to remember. They are the root cause of most of the intermittent issues. In fact, come to think of it, if I were running an old stock harness I would want the knock control because you can’t be certain that the system is working perfectly. I would not trust a high dollar engine to an old harness – but maybe that’s where we differ – most of my systems are going on new engines.
Maybe we are just catering to different markets, I feel that if you want a true stand alone EMS then you need to step up to the plate and do it right. Just my opinion.
If the Wolf is working for you guys then that is great – I am happy for you. If you really want to impress/inform me and possibly some of the other folks then tell me how accurate it is, how does it deal with spark dwell time, can it diagnose failing sensors, how does it calculate the ignition timing, and other stuff that has to do with engine management – like is the boost control continuously variable via a knob?

Not sure how this relates to anything i have said... I thought i was pretty clear in the pro and con dept.
As to the potential i would say he is leaving 20-25% on the table .......

Fair enough and I think Chris is making good points too. As I said I have no allegiance to Wolf, I just thought Nize may have been getting a bit of a raw deal on some of the things he was saying. I think I may have written that just after I had some annoying news. No probs from me and happy to hear all opinions.

what makes you positive that i have unstable performance and a slower car? my dyno numbers show i'm making more power than any chip solution i've used so far.

can you explain exactly how a 'knowledgeable user' can compensate with protection from bad gas and bad injectors without knock protection?

keep in mind that my car is actually tuned right. we're not talking about a bad tune here.

and why are we still discussing sour grapes instead of more features?

chris, this is more sour grapes. why not talk about features that may be unique to the tek3 system that you think makes it better instead of nitpicking on features other systems have that tek3 doesn't?

it makes you (and everyone else) sound like you're trying to promote an inferior product by slamming other products.

again, what facts led you to this conclusion?

Did you bother to read the post?

Does anybody know what systems the clewett crank trigger is compatable with? I know its good for a tec3 but is that it?

My take on all of this is the ECU and final tune nets safe and usable Torque. What ever asystem you use, it should be selected for the needs of the user. Some systems have ceratin functions and some do not. The issue I have is with systems that promote functionsd that they either do not have or do not do very well.

To get into promoting one system over another here, is not fair and against the rules of this forum.
One also needs to be careful about stating certain features that are important, when by assocation with a ceratin EFI system, that system is known not to do them very well.

Often, a system is taken to task for its inability, when the real issue is the user not doing/using the system very well. Poor tuning is always the problem with all systems.

I am with Chris W. on the knock sensor issue. Each engine has its own acoustic knock signature and with only one sensor in use, each cylinder is slightly different too. The engine also has a certain noise spectrum (both frequency content and amplitude), which is a function of rpm and load. Unless there are some engine specific filtering schemes, it would only be luck if the knock signal can be extracted from the noise at high rpm. Therefore general aftermarket knock sensing has very limited usability, unless it comes with very flexible filter programming and even with that, it requires significant engineering hours to set up such filters.

Another thing to consider in using a knock sensing system without strong filtering are some potential side-effects, not yet mentioned in this thread.
A partially collapsed engine mount, rattling components or a cam follower that gradually goes bad could be picked up as knock with max timing retardation as a result.
I know, the quick response to that scenario is “get it fixed”, but remember to use the same argument when something fails that causes knocking.

Lastly our ears are very good sensors (especially if they are well-trained), we even have dynamic filters build in, as an example: being able to listen to selective conversations at a party. Except above maybe 5500 rpm it should be possible to audibly detect any destructive detonation.
I know some people here believe in destructive silent detonation. I don’t, but that is a long discussion, that I don’t have time to go into here and now.

Laust

(detonation => knocking = pinging)

Anything that can use 60-2 and Hall triggers, so basically any EMS under the sun thats worth being called an EMS.

i completely agree. now let's hear about these functions that are unique to other systems. are there any?

Maaan, its hot today....gotta be up near 'bout 95 dad-burn degrees out.

Can your system do coil-on-plug ignition out-of-the-box and without additional "pay-us-more" gadgets? Does it have dual WB, dual EGT, dual knock detection implemented, defineable knock frequency? What is the processor of Wolf (that sets total resolution of the EMS)?

I know (and use) system that has all this (+fully configurable boost controller, lots of inputs (switches for anti-lag, flatshift etc), outputs etc) and all this for a price app. 1000$. I think this is pretty unique.


Wolf is not bad, but there's no point in gloryfing it in every possible way.

what system do you use? can you list the features of your system that makes it a better solution?

here, i'll get the ball started with a feature-by-feature comparison. most of these are listed as selling points for the tec3 system on their website. please chime in with other systems, and help clarify, add, remove features, etc;

I think the point Race boy is trying to make is that you are one of these people that have a product and since it is the one you have you want to believe it is the best and have convinced yourself of this with out having any experience with other systems but by just comparing features listed on each companies web sight. I have had a conversation with you about the Wolf and it was like trying to reason with a small child so I gave up on it and I stopped responding.

No one is saying the Wolf does not have its benefits and place in the market; it is just your approach to going on about how great it is annoying and abrasive, and you seem to be extremely narrow minded about the merits of other systems.

Have you guys not forgotten the golden rule when buying an EMS is to buy one based on who is going to tune it and how familiar they are with the software, otherwise you will never have an optimum system or you will spend a small fortune while your tuner learns how to program your choice of ECU.....! When you know which one or two systems he is familiar with, then you can make your choice. For the few who will do all their dyno tuning themsleves, for the money they can save on paying someone else they can afford to choose the best. If money is no object then Motec is the winner, for more of a budget then go for Autronic, for a mid range system any of the units discussed above will more than do the job so look a little further than the features list and go with what your tuner recommends!!

I fully agree with you and others responds regarding how difficult it is to get a reliable knock signal.

The PLX R500 I'm using (well, not really at the moment) has an inbuilt filter that you setup at first. You simply run the engine through the rpm range where you are certain there is no knock and make a noise signature for the engine. I also believe the Link G3 EMS have the same knock filtering feature.
That makes the knock signal a bit more useful.

I also agree that the human ear can be pretty darn good when trained. A crude but very effective way is to attach a copper brake line to a bolt on the block and hook up a pair of ear muffs to it.
Or you can build your own listening device and hook up. In fact, I'd rather tune using those methods than a knock sensor only.

A side note.. How the JS Safeguard with Wolf 3d works I don't know. I read a test of the Safeguard and where there was audiable knocking for the dyno operator the Safeguard still didn't respond. Who knows, maybe the sensor didn't work right but it made me a bit skeptical.

A bit off topic but hows your car coming along duke

before i decided on which system to go with, i researched various systems so at the time i was aware of exactly what i was getting. it seems most of the people who slam other systems do so without knowing anything about other systems. what i'd like to know is what made someone decide to choose one product over another? did they actually research the differences in the products before making their decision, or did they just go with hear-say and speculation?

chris and everyone else who is running a standalone; why did you choose your various systems over competing products?

it seems nobody here knows how to comparison-shop and love jumping on bandwagons.

and fyi, i am not tied to the wolf3d system. if there's a better solution out there, i can easily unplug the wolf, sell it, and swap to a different system. i'd like to know what reasons there are to make the swap, though.

i think a better solution is to learn to tune yourself, or find a tuner that's willing to teach you how. :)

Speaking of the devil I'm actually working on the new engine and EMS harness right now!! :p

Hahaha, well put TMS! :roflmao:

Nize, just chill out and give some honest thought to what others are saying. I, and I believe others here, are not trying to say that there is any real downside to knock sensing capabilities. All we're saying is that's just a piece of the puzzle and there are plenty other EMS' out there without knock sensing capabilities that work just fine and have for many years. Nize, you come off as putting down every other EMS simply because it doesn't have a feature that yours does. That really seems a bit closed-minded and certainly isn't going to make everyone reply nicely. The Wolf3d system seems to be pretty decent, but it's hardly the be all and end all of aftermarket EMS'. I'd highly suggest finding someone with some advanced Motec experience and ask them some questions or have them show you some stuff if you really want to see some of the best EMS technology at work. Oh, just FYI, if you want to see some really cool technology, check out this place: Blackline How about a Motec based datalogging/tuning setup that has high precision GPS data streaming capabilities, and can be connected to through Bluetooth. I mean you could potentially datalog/tune with a PDA or Blackberry! How cool is that?! Can your Wolf3d do that? ;)

my engine mgmt will log to my cell phone via bluetooth, they are also working on usb memory stick support I belive.. allthough not critical, it's bloody cool!

as for the discussion, this is reminding me of a linux distrowar with a bunch of sealots.

as for tuning, and understanding mapping of the engine, it's a science of it's own. I have owned multiple cars with aftermarket standalone ecu's and done alot of related stuff, yeah sure if I was to tune a backyard toy I would do it myself, but when tuning something that will go close to 300kmh and not blow up? I'll pass! you gotto know your limitations.

as an example of hard knock is, ford used thousands of hours on the knockcode for the focus RS, and they are smarties with white labcotes! (my workplace won't allow us white cotes anymore :( )

p.s. the tuner I use has access to the ems sourcecode and can compile custom **** in it, neatness.

one last thing. who here uses aim mxl dash thingys?

Most everyone hear has already said it two or three times, SUPORT. That means a person close by who is familiar with the system and can dyno tune it. Then number 2 is going to be price.

The Motec and Electromotive are two of the most popular systems out there, making these two the best chioces because of wide spread suport and not being an obscure system only one or two people in the country are goos with. I don't think any one would argue that the Motec is not a little better, but also more expensive. So most people in this comunity pic the Tec because of price and that it does everything you need and more. I have so many things on the tec I don't even use, like knock, that I am not in the least bit worried about what features it doesn't have because I don't need them. I just don't agree that more features make it better, that is such a small aspect of what makes a good stand alone, there is a much bigger picture you are missing.

I personaly picked the tec beause there was someone half an hour away from me who could give me suport and dyno tune it well.

Tuning it yourself is all fine and well, I to learned how to tune my car and how my system works. But you would be a fool to think that you will get a half way decent map with out doing the timing on a dyno, there is no other way. You might make a map that drives well but doesn't make the power it should.

Of all of the fantastic features the Wolf has how many are you actualy useing.

LOL, no sour grapes here ,

Never said you had a bad tune , read my statement again, also recommend a little more subject matter on knock sensors and how they work in relation to engine noise and knock frequency...
If you are using a generic knock system the way you have described , i stand by my original statement....

I dont think he did ....

Doing this kind of comparision does'nt solve anything , as you can advertise any
feature and it does not tell you the quality of the product...nor does it tell you if the features listed functions correctly .

You should do it by performance , actual proven performance on the dyno and then in the field ,why ? at the end of the day it is all about the performance , is it reliable at that power level , is the performance repeatable , this way it is more objective , currently , you have turned this into pissing contest...
as you will not address the answers given....

once again, can you explain exactly how a 'knowledgeable user' can compensate with protection from bad gas and bad injectors without knock protection?

i did, but if others won't bother answering my questions, why should i bother to answer theirs?

it's obvious that chris white, you, and anyone else that's slamming knock protection and the wolf system doesn't know anything about the system because none of you have actually compared different standalone systems side-by-side before deciding your system was the one to use.

that doesn't change the fact that companies like tec3 blatantly advertise those same features as their main selling points. i'm comparing what tec3 and other standalone systems themselves advertise.

if features don't matter, why bother using them as selling points?

if you're referring back to the 'proven on the racetrack' theory to compare performance and reliability, race-winning track cars have been using the wolf system far longer than the tec system.

At this point, I have know idea what point your trying to get across but I do know electromotive has been around in the 80's. I'm not sure about Wolf. I would be intrested in knowing.

edit - I looked it up off their site, Wolf has been around since the early 90's.

Why do we keep getting back to tec3 and wolf , Is that what this is about , then you need to take it up with tec3..... :rolleyes:

okay, what system are you running and what made you decide to run it?

So, did you read all of these threads posted by these guys? Did they help you at all? Which one are you going with anyway? You haven't posted in a long time since you started your own thread.

http://autopia.org/forum/images/smilies/work.gif

it would really help if people running standalone systems would point out the benefits of their systems, instead of trying to downplay or criticize features their systems might be lacking.

does anybody else see this?

Anders, I used MXL Strada dash.

Agreed - I've already purchased mine... just waiting for it to arrive. I'm sure this would be helpful to others though, especially posts from end users rather than vendors as the vendors can be dealt with directly (I'm not saying vendors shouldn't post... just that it might be more helpful to have user experiences - I think that is what tyhe post originally asked for).

Nize, perhaps you can share some more about your installation and tuning experiences with the Wolf as well as its data logging etc.

hey, the mxl connects directly to the wolf ! :)
http://wolfems.cart.net.au/details/722437.html

Whoopty friggin' do. Yay for you! You got your first aftermarket engine management and are tuning it yourself! WELCOME TO THE TWENTY FIRST CENTURY JACKASS! I apologize to everyone else as I don't like to act that hostile but, you leave me little choice, Nize. So far, from what I gather, you have experience with one aftermarket ems. What gives you the right to form such a hostile and negative opinion (again, that's what it seems like to me) on everything else when you have absolutely no experience. Grow up! Wolf 3d being used in professional racing? Honestly, outside of the 944 community I think I've only ever seen it mentioned 1 or 2 other places. I'd be willing to bet my life that the number of Electromotive, Motec, SDS, and Haltech systems out there on pro race cars far outweighs the number of wolf setups. Just get over yourself and have a little humility. Nothing wrong with liking what you have, but don't have the gall to go around putting everything and everyone else down that doesn't agree. Humility is, I think, something that some members of this forum lack. That's enough out of me. :bigbye:

Another thing I would consider in selecting a standalone system is familiarity as well as compatibility with other cars I have, which is obviously not relevant for the first time buyer. However it is also very important to have well written documentation (manuals), not just for immediate tuning, but for possible changes down the road necessitated by performance upgrades. I doubt the average user will be able or willing to memorize the manual for the lifetime of the product.

On that point I have to say that Electromotive’s documentation leaves a little to be desired. Their very first manual (DOS for the TEC-1) had a lot of acronyms at that time unknown to me, so I had to create a one page acronym decoder. In the TEC-3 manual I was unable to decipher their description of the idle control and had to have it explained by Clewett, only to realize that it was the same as for the TEC-1 (the TEC-1 manual had explanatory graphs, while the TEC-3 manual didn’t). In other words Electromotive must have lost some technical writing skills.

Btw, it is possible for one person to tune and optimize an engine management system (if it has data logging and a trustworthy oxygen sensor) without a dyno, but it is awfully tough and time-consuming. The dyno can be substituted by driving on the street with one foot on the brakes and the other on the accelerator while acquiring data. A set of brake pads is cheaper and provides more scheduling flexibility than half a day of dyno time.

Laust

hey Porschefile;
i still haven't seen you contribute any useful information regarding what system you're running and why you chose to run it.

this is, in fact, how i did all of my initial tuning. actually, i had a friend brake-driving in circles in a huge parking lot while i tuned in realtime. after a few weeks of this, i got it on the dyno for some further calibration which only took a few hours.

i would say the brake-driving method saved me a ton of money in dyno time. :)

great advice laust !

I was planning on doing some of that with a GTech devic since it gives net HP and TQ figures and then fine tune on the dyno... what do you think?

Excuse the ignorance but how do you tune by 'Brake-Driving'?

It is similar to what a load-type dyno does... hold the engine at a given RPM and Load, so you can tune the appropriate cell.



Rogue

Thanks Rogue, but I assume this is done on relatively low rpms? Surely you don't try and tune your cell at 5000rpm+ using this system?

I think it works best if you have a second person.

Ok I answered your question and many others have to you just don't seem to read them. Comparing stand alones is done by useing two different stand alone systems, not caomparing thier features side by side to see if one has more stupid useless features than the other. More features only mean alot to people who need them or stupid people that think more features means a better system and that is all there is to it.

If some one who has experience with a system with biult in knock protection and says its usefulness is limited then it might be worth listening if your knowledge is almost non existant.

So here are some questions for you,
Of all your stupid features how many are you actualy useing?
How are you tuning timing?
What is your suport base like? Is there some one in reasonable driving distance?

Bottom line comparing meaningless features does not give you experience. No one is knocking the Wolf,but you sure seem determined to prove it is better than all other systems out there.

I stand by my statement that dealing with you is like trying to reason with a small child, I am done trying too.

Hmmm, now i see , your still Dizzy :D

...and I am still waiting on a description how the Safeguard system Wolf uses are working?
I've read a professional dyno review of it and was not impressed. I have not read a single concrete thing in these 19 pages why this system is good and how it works.

Nize, if you think everyone here's slamming knock protection please elaborate on how your system works. I think everyone agrees that knock protection is good, it's just not that simple that you can hook up a universal system and everything is well and fine and that's why not more people are keen on using it.

You won't win any tech people over by telling us if the manufacturer is willing to die or not for it's product.

I'm using this one :

I works best if you use an eddy-current dyno.

Tuning a piggyback that way may be OK but trying to map a standalone by using your brakes? That's like trying to build a knock table by hitting the engine with a hammer.....

OK, I am still willing to play nice (even if my points keep getting misconstrued).
It was asked what I am looking for in a EMS product – here it is in order
1. Accuracy
2. Reliability
3. Accuracy
4. Dependability
5. Accuracy
6. Strong ignition system (very important in turbo cars)
7. Accuracy
8. Ability to control ancillary devices
9. Accuracy
10. Datalogging
11. Accuracy
12. Knock Control
Maybe my point might be starting to surface…..I like accuracy….a lot.
So far the sales pitch I keep hearing is “but I’ve got knock control”, sure, that’s swell. So do I….but its way down the list for features I really care about.
To address some other comments – I have not made this an Electromotive sales pitch, in fact if you reread my posts I don’t mention the Tec3/GT unless specifically addressed by others – this is not my thread and I don’t really like imposed sales pitches….I was ready to leave this alone long ago but I felt that the listers were being lead down a path that disagreed with my basic EMS beliefs along with some misinformation.
So – in a nutshell – touting knock control as the main selling point of an EMS product just doesn’t agree with my idea of what is important (note – I never said that it was irrelevant – just not the most important feature of an EMS product). In fact if it is so seriously important stick with Motronic – it is the only system that has been specifically tailored to the 951 engine. The second item that has been touted as a great feature - reusing 20 year old sensors and wiring - is completely against my belief of what quality EMS is all about.
If you still feel so strongly about reusing the old stuff I have a large supply of valve springs that I can let you have cheap…oh ,wait, maybe I should charge more since these are plug and play valve springs :)

One other thing that I don't fully understand - if the Wolf is so good with the knock control why is an outboard 'box' (safeguard) being used. You do understand that the safegaurd system can work with any system?

okay, now how did you determine the system you are using is more accurate, reliable, and dependable than other systems?

nice picture. what is it and what made you decide to run it?

so what you are basically saying is that you don't know anything about standalone systems nor how to tune them and are basing your decision on local availability. okay, next.

just for the record, i have compared the tec, motec, megasquirt, wolf, and a few other systems before deciding to get the wolf. i'm fortunate because there are many places nearby that support all of those systems, and i have local friends who are running different systems. i believe a good system requires very minimal support. do you base your car purchase decision on wether or not there is a local mechanic able to support your car? i'm sure some people do.

here are your answers;

1) i'm actually using most of the 'stupid' features that are listed. i also like having the ability to expand to individual ignition and independent fuel injection, neither of which i'm using yet, as the stock system is not set up that way, but both of which i plan to in the future.
2) i'm tuning timing via a timing map, which was performed on a dyno.
3) there is a local support base for tec, motec, megasquirt, wolf, and others.

if you'll notice, i don't knock (pun) any features on other systems. i might be talking up the wolf because i'm informing people of what made me decide to get the wolf over other systems.

again, why doesn't everyone else talk about the benefits of their own systems instead of knocking :) the features their systems might be lacking?

Wow, Standalone is the new 3" versus 4" exhaust. Such emotion, such passion...such ranting and raving. It is often amazing to me how fired up and personal people will get while typing, when you know very well they would never stand up like that face to face. Guys, relax....it's only a way to control spark and fuel. Complex yes, but not rocket science...and it's not like 20 years ago Porsche was controlling it with smoke signals but now it's done with super computers. If you add the right amount of fuel and light it at the right time it doesn't matter if it is controlled by a supercomputer or a monkey pushing a button. There have been some improvements and some systems offer more than others but in the end how much improvement has there been? Well this dyno was done on 16psi of boost, stock WG, APE chips with huntley Maf and larger turbo. All else was stock. Following this dyno I pulled the boost controller and capped off the lines, turned up the fuel and ran 22 psi for 10 years. The stock system may be hugely outdated, but then it does work pretty damn well.... I haven't seen any 16psi dyno pulls on standalones that make this sheet look bad and several 18psi pulls that don't look this good....so if you are addressing a certain need then by all means go standalone, but don't feel like it must be done short of monster applications.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...turbo16psi.jpg

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File's 951 is stock, but he did stockpile a bunch of parts to build his version of the perfect 951. Mechanically he could not make it happen, so he sold all of the parts here on list. Look man, stop questioning the master. Simply sit back and absorb the wisdom, gathered over the ages in his family and handed down from father to son written on the back of a Toyota 'oh what a feeling' owners manual. No, he's never done it...but he HAS read more about it on the internet than you have....so yield to his expertise or he "shall taunt you a second time"

It is entertaining watching him get all emotional over a system he's never installed, never driven behind and couldn't tune to save his life. Entertainment, it is the purpose of the net...so enjoy!

The purpose of the “brake-driving” procedure is to optimize the AFR and ignition under static conditions (not dynamic or transient conditions such as warm-up, acceleration, deceleration, etc. as these have separate fuel and timing modifiers).
It requires a few things to be in place first and also requires some planning. For example, the system has to be in closed loop mode (automatically adjusts fuel to the desired AFR) and make sure that the electronic acceleration pump is not active (for the selected data).

Once driving, select an rpm to be optimized, then when traffic allows, select an appropriate gear and adjust the speed to get to this rpm, then start data logging. Have one foot on the brake, then slowly push the accelerator to WOT while modulating the brake it to keep the rpm constant. Then stop data logging. The time span from cruising to WOT is about 5-10 seconds.
This can be done at a number of rpm’s during the drive.

Then bring the data file home for further analysis and verification and if satisfied make the necessary changes to the engine management system.
For my own calibration I have created an Excel spreadsheet with underlying Visual Basic that prunes the dataset for transient data, based on criteria I set up. This means that I can acquire data continuously from the start to the end of the trip and prune it afterwards, maybe getting 20% relevant data.

Once the AFR is optimized, then do the ignition with the same driving procedure after setting the ignition more aggressively (data logging not necessary), but bring a friend to monitor which cell the system is in at any time. When going through the load ranges at different rpm’s listen carefully for pinging and let the friend write down the specific cell that needs retardation (estimate the amount). This is an iterative process, which should end up with a 2 degree safety margin for audible pinging.

A word of caution:
Fuel and ignition optimization can only be done on an engine in near perfect condition. Specifically, there can be no misfires, otherwise you’ll end up in an infinite loop of confusion.
Also, never fully trust the sensors and apply some common sense, such as verifying that the engine delivers the approximate expected power with no dead spot or holes in the 2D power grit.

Laust

PS I don’t think a dyno can add much to this procedure, except provide an alternative AFR sensor for verification. The main difference between a dyno and driving is airflow around the engine with different pressure and temperature distribution than on the dyno.

PPS 333pg333, I have used this method to tune to +7000 rpm (with nitrous). Damn noisy and had to guess on a conservative ignition setting.

billindenver; you truly get it. :)

Did he stay at a Holiday Inn last night? :)

hey laust, i'm interested in the pruning excel spreadsheet, that's a great idea.

i do understand that, but i don't see any other systems using the j&s. actually, there is a local guy driving a turbo honda with a tec3 and j&s. he's smart.

the designer of the wolf plug-and-play system for the 951 was smart enough to know that in order to provide the best knock protection, the j&s should be used to replace the klr which essentially performs the same function, while the wolf replaces the dme.

To be honest the Wolf system was not around when I ‘shopped’ the market and selected the Electromotive EMS. So in all truth I cannot state that the Tec3/GT is more accurate than the Wolf – I don’t know enough about the Wolf.
What I do know is that the Electromotive system uses a complex computer model of the engine’s speed to calculate the spark and fuel timing and requirements. The 60-2 tooth system was design and patented by Electromotive and was adopted by many OEM (Including Porsche). The system does not just identify TDC each revolution - it calculates the engine speed and the change in speed in a ‘virtual engine model’ based on input from each tooth. Not many systems do this. A lot just measure the time for 1 full revolution and calculate the parameters from that. This can lead to a timing error on a fast accelerating engine – it also indicates to me how much the EMS company cares about accuracy.
I can’t tell how the Wolf system does its calculation from their website.
Reliable and dependable – well that comes from field testing and the background of the company. The Electromotive systems have been around since the 80’s on lots of ‘real’ race cars. The company is a solid outfit that stands behind their product. As I said before – I don’t know Wolf but I do know of other underfunded outfits that have introduced the latest and greatest just to disappear or run into serious issues with the system (bugs).
Again – I don’t know about Wolf and I have yet to see one out at the track on the east coast. If I had the time I might try one out – but that is a lot of time to invest (the other problem is that most of my cars are running the Tec3/GT so I can’t simply plug the Wolf in!)
Even if I found the Wolf to be a good unit I would recommend that the unit be installed with a new harness and sensors. Its not that big a deal to fab a harness – and you can use all those other features!
Can I take a second to sum this up? I have not ‘knocked’ the Wolf system, I only wanted to make the point that you should not buy ANY system solely based on a single feature like knock control. You want to get the most accurate and reliable EMS you can afford. Do you own research and make your own choice. Don’t be fooled by a super slick interface - sure it’s great eye candy, but that won’t manage the engine any better. Dig a little deeper – find out how it works.
BTW – somebody posted about the Tec3 manual not being the easiest thing to understand – and they are right . It was not written for the consumer, it was written for the dealer or tuning professional. When you buy a tec3 system you should expect the dealer to work with you and educate you on the system, how it works and how to tune it if you want to do your own tuning. If you just shop for the absolute cheapest price than you might just get what you paid for!

See - I can agree with you on this - the safeguard system does look like a good knock control set up!

That is how the Tec3 self tune mode works. You can set the ‘pruning ‘ level also. You can also datalog the self tune and look at its recommendations before adding them to the file. I do this manually since I have seen enough of these to know what VE adjustments will make the needed corrections.
BTW – a set of Big Red will hold a 400 rwhp engine at a steady RPM for quite a while (at least 15 seconds). I use this for testing all the time – but I do live out in the country where I can do this on a ling straight safely. Once brake tuned I usually have very little – if any- adjustments on the dyno.
I do prefer the dyno for ignition tuning – especially a current eddy dyno.

Hey - I'm on a streak....
Did I ever mention that both Ford and GM are Electromotive licensees for their distributorless ignition systems…?
Porsche uses some of the techno logy starting in 1989 but due to an odd set up with Ford of Europe and Bosch they did not become an official licensee.
So – anybody with a post 1989 Porsche is running on a ignition system with some Electromotive content.

now that's some cool info. :) i'll post more when i have time later.

okay, the wolf calculates the time it takes between pulses and with the amount in your velocity tracking rate, the acceleration rate. with this it then determines when the coil charge time should start and end, this is in relation to coil discharge and charge time, since chris asked how the wolf handles spark dwell time.

Which may not be a coincidence since I some 12 years ago talked with Electromotive, mentioned that such a feature would be very convenient and gave them a copy of my spreadsheet.
Ironically I have not used their feature, :( but still use my spreadsheet.

While on the subject, I also at the time had great difficulty getting adequate idle vacuum (hot cams and sub-optimal pressure measurements), had non-linear pressure – load relationship throughout rpm range and discovered that the throttle position – load had an opposite relationship. So I made a little summing mixer in hardware, which resulted in an almost linear response. This could obviously be controlled better in software, so I wrote an engineering report on the subject with suggestions for its implementation and that apparently resulted in their “blend function”. Even more ironically, I could not make that work properly in my TEC-3 unit. :mad:

For those, who can’t get enough of EMS discussions, here is a relevant forum: http://www.efi101.com/forum/

Laust

Yes, +1, I've been searching for info there occasionally and it has tons of knowledge (some junk also ;) ).

hehehe Bump ah, the good ol days....

LOL, you must have been looking at the same thread as me....


-Rogue

So what was the resolution?

That for 25 Rennlisters theres 38.5 different opinions.

And we figured that out in 21 pages.

I also learned that Chris likes accuracy and Nize likes wolf 3D.

I think that if I had to buy an off the shelf system, id get a Link G4. It looks like an excellent system. The Wolf3D system is nice, but then youre using the stock harness.... Thats its biggest downside IMHO.

Can you tell me why you say that?

I really want to know. I am buying on in the near future.

Its a good price ($1300-1400USD for the G4 Extreme, less for the G4 Storm) and has a crap load of features, including gear compensation for timing and boost, OEM idle support (I assume itll do our 3 wire Bosch valves, theyre very common idle valves), supports lots of triggers (unsure about ours, ive only looked at the brochure), 8 channel sequential injection and spark, onboard logging, onboard barometric compensation, boost control with gear or throttle or speed reference, etc.

Lots of features that others dont have, OR that you have to pay extra for. Several people on here have the Link G3 and have said good things, and I quite like my Link KnockBlock that I have. I like the Wolf as well, but it doesnt seem to mention some of the features that the Link G4 has on the Wolf website.

TO ME PERSONALLY plug and play is not a consideration. To some it is and thats fine, so keep that in mind with my posts. My stock harness was a pile of **** when I removed it, so getting excited about plug and play when youre only going to have to spend money and time to fix and improve the stock harness seems a bit counterproductive to me. Chris White has said the same thing a few times.

Just for the record, VEMS has also all of these features, including stock 944/951 trigger arrangement and 3wire idle valve support. I'm using 3wire IAC from Porsche 993 on my daily driver Mercedes 190E 2.3-16 with VEMS.

The Electromotive TecGT comes in silver......its pretty. ;)

:roflmao:

It's to bad they ditched the purple boxes. All the Miata guys claim purple is fast, Kokeln seems to agree. Are they on to something?

:roflmao:

Ive always wanted to kill whoever started the purple car parts fad. TEC, Kokelkn, so many camber plates for different cars.... Ugh.

I was all for VEMS from years ago. But with the lack of any sort of serious support, constant firmware changes in some sort of vicious "Crap my firmware update ditched all my settings" circle of hell, and that damn freaking wiki, which represents the real attitude of the developers, which is "I understand it, but I have an alien brain and eat transistors for breakfast - I don't give a **** if you can't understand this garbage"

And now with the exchange rate, with a loom, its very little different than the Link G4 extreme/VIPEC V88. No Mystery, no drama.

Ray Hall of Autronic is now supporting the VIPEC V44 and V88s, which are very good boxes, based on the Link G4 boxes.

Interesting how some countries seem to specialise in certain automotive parts. Australia / NZ have started Motec , Autronic, LINK, EMS and others, plus then you look at gearboxes, gearsets, differentials etc to also emanate from down under.
I'm not beating my chest here, just find it sort of odd how it happens like that.

support is growing, but I do identify with your points. good thing I live close to the scandinavian guys who are good at it, and such, I just say what I want, and they do it :D "mount it and map it" :)

Not based on it, its perfectly identical in every single way... except the logo on the software and box :)

LOL

Do you have it in white to match my car?

Will my Green adjustable cam gear offend you? I was inspired by Dukes car but the shade is off. Its a little darker without the flash but not the same... oh well..

:burnout:

Does it come in a color besides Oxidized Copper Green? Ive got a color scheme to keep going here damnit :roflmao:

And no it wont, thats far less gay than the purple :p

Red, black, blue, gold, yellow, green, clear, grey.. The green was for me as I don't have a theme and my engine bay looks gay.

ps - the outer gear ring can be changed or matched and the bolts can be silver, black, blue or a mix.

Can I get that with a chrome 'spinner' on the front? I need something to offset the spinner wheels....

For an extra $3 you can have it in any color Rustoleum makes....

Awesome. :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Yes, but thats extra.:cheers:

Damn, no deal then :p

OK , so you have one good EMS coming out of Australia :evilgrin: and .............

This thread is kinda like reading a good book BUT NOT waiting for a good ending just to find a "BUMP" to refresh it nothing against 333.I just started this morning and off and on read this thread till this ****ty ending ! So what did the fellow actually pick out???

It might be a little old but I have used the Wolf 3D and it didn't stay in my 951 long not that is was bad it I just had to simplify because I don't think i would ever get it were I wanted. BUT back on the "knock" issues I don't run anything for monitoring ( after I had done the tuning) knock. There are plenty of other ways in knowing you have bad gas that seam to be a big rambling point. I had been wonder if people get gas and just hold there foot to the floor all the time!? till KA BOOM! and in that case no EMS will help. For now I got the Mafterburner piggyback type deal and a ST12 acquisition system seting on the bench that I had in at one point but not had the time to deal with it soon I will be playin with it again !!


AND WHAT IS UP WITH THE PURPLE THING MY KW VARIANT 3 IS YELLOW AND PURPLE KINDA GOT MY THING MY 951 IS A DAMN BARNE MOBILE WHEN UNDERNEATH(WHEN BUYING THE COILOVERS I TRIED MY ASS OFF TO GET THE PURPLE PIECES IN ANNNNNNNY COLOR BUT WHAT I ENED UP WITH!!!!!!!!!

Autronic is good. LINK is good (although Kiwi), Hollinger gearboxes, Mondena Motorsports make LSD for Ferrari and Guards amongst others. All leading products in their fields.:thumbup:

I think once you see the detail of the spinner system and what it takes to make a spinner spin while the engine is off, it will totally change your mind. That being said, I feel you would want 2 of them.:cheers:

I just spoke with dave and he just told me he is now making them with dual ceramic bearings so it will keep on spining for a while after the engine is shut off.

From the sounds of it I might want 4, two for my SOHC engine ;) And two for my Dodge Caravan V6 :p

That would work very well. Its just is too close in price (now) with loom to the VIPEC V88/Link G4 extreme.

True. I do believe there is a sort of branch off on what Ray Hall is doing with the software, no?

Yeah Motec is very good .................

Hollinger - :thumbup:

Mondena Motorsports -:thumbup:


Good products , Yes , the leading products in their field , i don't think so................

You had me at hello.

Well of course I'm prepared to accept otherwise but you would have to reveal your secret identity and qualifications, neither of which I imagine will be forthcoming...so I say Prove it???

Prove what ? :biggulp:

First i need to know who is you :p.........Dundee? Lillee? Mel ? Ghost of Brock........

Prove that these other items such as LINK are not worthy? By revealing your quals would lend weight to your assertions. Simple enough yes?
As to my identity, you can call me whatever you like. I'm just Joe Public customer.

Patrick

Leave him alone Patrick. He is a not worth getting into a discussion with. I know, I have been there. He knows a little about nothing. He hides in Internet land without identity and spouts off a whole lot of nothing. Run Patrick run.

I'm told by someone who knows him, he works in some shop in Florida as the janitor. It appears he spends his time sitting on the thing he should be cleaning, reading up on the latest happenings in F1 so he can post the latest info, allowing the rest of us to get on with our lives. I do thank him for this service. Not sure about those he works with. I just imagine they are all cross legged waiting outside the locked door.

BTW, the Vipec is EXACTLY the same as the Link. Just in another enclosure so he can sell into countries that already had Link distributors. Don't be fooled here just so a sale is made. EXACTLY the same.

From my own experience the Hollinger is a great transmission. It was good enough for BMW to spec it as the Trans for all of their Touring cars.

never happen..

I'm friend of Joe Public customer ( fighting dis-information) and you made the statement that link and Autronics are leading products in there field , now you prove it :icon107:

Better yet ,

Ask evil ... he has a lot on his CV, just look N. for the next mushroom cloud from him and M42 in there latest attempt ....:roflmao:

Get with it boys :

:icon107: ........................................................................ ..................:cheers:

What are you talking about?

Wow, so you got some quotes from other internet users. I'm out.

It has been discussed at length many times before , what do you want , sumting from Wiki :roflmao:

Here Update on the Link Ecu : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WQpr...eature=related

just nod your ................................:thumbup:

Not really, I can care less if you like autronics or not. For that matter, I don't really care what system you like. :cheers:

Same here!

Now why ask a question , if yuh nuh want the answer :cheers: just keeping it real, 333 and all , hold tight .....

I don't recall asking you any questions and yet you felt compelled to include me in your childish banter.. have a good night..

Question.

What has a big head, no brains, and ego the size of Manhattan and cannot add any value to this discussion.

Answer.

No, I cannot. That would be like taking candy from a baby.

Really ,

:biggulp: I guess this makes it Childish Banter ....

Question.

What has less intelligence than an Ant but a little more than a pile of dog pooh?

Answer.

Nah, I cannot bring myself to telling.

Question.

What?

Nah. this is too easy!!!

If it fits your MO, wear it with pride baby.

Have a good evening!

Sorry, but that was the truth. Anytime someone asks you a question, you put a pointless spin on it, you don't answer any questions and the thread gets ruined. Perhaps I mis read your posts but I don't think so..

Look, bottom line is you like MoteC, Motec is great BUT there are other ECU's out there and not everyone can be as fortunate, as you, to own a Motec like you or tune a Motec like you.

Wow, fantastic, You are a Motec god! Wait lets hear more about it. What Motec system is on your car? Any pics of your car? Any dyno charts, lap times? Anything else useful you can share with us other than same old bashing people that don't agree with you? I don't get it.

Have fun..

I guess the only answer I want is who you are so that I can take all this as gospel coming from someone who is obviously very qualified in the Automotive industry. Instead I get your usual tapdance which most times I find kind of vaguely amusing, but I must say if you're not so well connected in the Auto industry a career in politics beckons because you're extremely good at avoiding the question. :)
I am led to believe that you are someone who knows a thing or two about cars, but I can't see why you'd be too embarrassed to reveal your quals if this were so.
As to the validity of some people's complaints of Autronic, well valid they may be but complaints and Autronic are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure if I had time I could come back with complaints about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Hopefully you're not as fictitious as those guys? :)

Patrick,

He's the Janitor at a shop in Florida. Your talking to a Janitor for heavens sake. Why would you want to talk/discuss something as technical as EFI with a Janitor???

The toilets he cleans are not the only receptacle thats full of sh''t!!!

He is really to funny to ignore, but we must.

I am no Waynsky fan however you should not throwing rocks while sitting in a glass house. All you do is hugging Neils nuts while living of your family connections.

AW, you clearly have too much time on your hands.
As for negating my original off the cuff statement about noticing how certain countries seem to specialise in certain fields, I wasn't intending your employer to stop the presses nor do I mind that you disagree. My Automotive credentials are :roflmao: but for various reasons I'm learning a little along the way. You however do espouse 'the knowledge' and therefore I'm happy to take your opinions on board although repeated requests for you to reveal your identity or even your background / experience are always met with your soft shoe shuffle (as impressive your ability to wriggle, twist, deflect and obfuscate is). Yet we must in the end compare you to others out there who offer sage advice. In no particular order there is John@VR, Chris White, Dave McGrath,
Jim aka Special Tool, Lindsey bros etc to name a few on this forum. It would seem only fair that you also reveal your hand otherwise it's ultimately hard to grant you the same attention as we Joe Publics do with these guys. :thumbup:

I'm no Polesky fan :) but you are as right as rain ........BINGO ...........He's a Nut Hugger alright :cheers:

....and still nothing...but thanks for setting your alarm to make that response...

I was only giving my JQ Public opinion like you .....

You said they where leaders in there respective field and i disagree , but alas
You JQ opinion is bigger than My JQ opinion, I then offer the opinions of Experts who state Autronics is " Crap " and he bowls and it was a No ...
still not good enuff, brushed off as just another set of opinion .

And he Bowls and it's a six..............................

What can i say , Ohhh The Irony ......................................:roflmao:

What you need to do now is nod your head : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WQpr...eature=related

Just as I thought, more useless information. All I'm saying is, if your going to make a statement, back it up with your experiences. Perhaps start a thread on all your tuning experience. I'm positive it would be a very useful thread.

The reason for me asking asking to see your car etc., which it seems you probably don't even own one, might actually show you are doing something rather than letting people think your a janitor in a shop BUT instead, I'm sure you will continue to deflect and fill up the forum with non technical information, thanks, Its really helpful..

Ohh The Irony


your .02c was very technical ....... :roflmao:

I would love to see your "tuning" experiences , maybe the " missing link " ..............
C'mon evil anti- up sumting and whats wrong with my cars , i gave pics and a bio ...

I'm JQ bus rider, Just Nod .....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WQpr...eature=related

There is nothing wrong with having different opinions on EMS systems, healthy debates, and engaging conversations. But this thread has now twisted and there are personal attacks by several parties. Please get it back on track.

and yet another deflection. I would love to discuss tuning and standalones, That is what this thread is about but when all you get is deflections and then personal attacks, it kinda makes it hard to have a discussion.

If you have an opinion on Link products, I'd love to hear it. As far as anti'ing up anything, why bother. If I read your posts correctly, if its not Motec, you don't want to discuss.

The thing I can't understand is, you have a strong opinion yet you will not divulge your experience with Link or Autronics products. I'm sure you have experience with Link or Autronics if you don't care for them, right? Otherwise you wouldn't be wasting our time with these charades, right? This is not personal, I'm just trying to learn more about these systems. I would love to hear it from someone that has used and experienced all of them. After all, that is the purpose of this thread.

this is an EMS thread. stop it guys.

Maybe the question should be what Stand Alone EMS systems really should be avoided for our cars? We all know the favorites.

I wonder if we can answer this question with out any sarcasm?

Dave is there an exhaust headed my way yet?

I understand that the VIPEC Is indeed the G4 extreme, but Ray hall seems very interested in making sure VIPEC is well supported. So do several suppliers, JUST as it is true with Link.

RPM/load mapping for EACH injector x8, which only autronic and higher end ECUs have, as I understand.

Good, moderatley paced updates that do not change your original settings.



I have been doing research on ECUs for nearly 6 years now. They get better and better, but some (haltech, Wolf) seem to hide facts that they do not want you to know. One of those is the way the injector control can be mapped when in sequential.

Ohhh The Irony ,

You make no freaking sense , you respond with nothing , where is your dyno sheet , mushroom cloud pic , anything !


You swing in with that other clairvoyant numbnut in regards to a discussion by Patrick and myself ...regarding ECU's ..

You must have some involvement with Link , Do you have any involvement with Link ?


This started with my response to Patrick's post :

This was my response to Patrick ... See humor :rolleyes:

This was now Patrick response , describing the products ;isted below as being Leading products in there field...

Now this i strongly disagree, because it is very misleading...IMHO
Hence my response :

This was Patricks technical response to me questioning his judgement ,


LMAO ... the Irony

So this tells me i struck a nerve , right at this point this is no longer an EMS discussion , it's a A.Wayne Discussion with negative intent , there is nothing technical here from here it is all personal attacks from 333, Evil and M42 .

So Patrick are you or anyone you know having a bad experience with Link or Autronics ?

Patrick are you and Evil connected in anyway with LInk and Autronics?

What about M42 are you connected to M42 apart from corresponding on this board ?

Patrick you and Evil have turned an EMS discussion into sumting personal and M42 swoops in displaying his usual childish reprobate behavior ...you guys must be tied in someway ..

What say you ?

Yes there is Sumting Wong Hair :roflmao:

Anti-up or Zip it .........................

OK great can we please get back on topic.

Disagree there are many issues abound , saying you can do something is totally different to performing the task, not because it is an listed feature makes it good ...

I had posted comments from other end users and they are unanimous in their criticisms....
view post 345

Okay, forget autronic. Its priced too high for what it does now. My statements were more about the Link/Vipec. It seems to be working well, better than ecus above its price point. I don't want to buy, try and find easy support for, or have a motec. The whole issue with motec just doesn't ring true of me.

I am sure it works great. But its ubiquitous - "MOTEC" everyone says "motec" because they were told so by others. Thats fine. Some even have great personal experiences.

What I find ridiculous is that people will disregard OTHER ecus simply because motec is supposed to be the best. Fine - spend 6k and get the best. But to me and many others, it seems like you could spend 1500 and get very good. 80/20 rule. 80% of the work for 20% of the price/effort/thinking, and to get the last 20% takes 80% of the price/effort/thinking.

I am not running the 24 hours of lemans. I just want to control some VERY large injectors using ethanol and boost to get as close as I can to "ludicrous speed" if you will, while still idling properly, a great cruise ability, and some fun stuff like traction control, launch, flat shift.

Now I KNOW for a fact that autronic is not as bad as you and some others are making it out to be. I will not argue as there is no point. Autronic on a 5L 32V 928 is getting close to 900 crank hp, on pump gas and 32psi from a supercharger. Each cylinder has been trimmed and mapped with separate 02 sensors (yes - 8 of them) - and the car runs and drives better than stock, but is a banshy when he puts the foot in it. The software has more options that most users will ever even use let alone fully understand.

But I will not be buying motec. I will be buying Link/Vipec as I understand them now. They work well, have great injector control, and have the tuning software to match. Support from many people in my area and aboad.

Yes, Ben Strader LOVES to hype Autronic. What is wrong with that? People need to make their own decisions, no matter what advice they get. If I am "influenced" as a new tuner into doing something not in my best interests, - who's fault is that? Mine. I am responsible for my decisions and no one else is.

If I ripped out a GM map based ECU from an old 90s car and tuned my porsche motor properly with it and was happy - would you say that the ECU sucked and there were better options for me? But if it worked for me, who cares?

Now the drama here is not needed. I do agree with the discussion of features vs the *ability* to tune properly/repeatedly WITH the features. AEM is an example - BASIC tunes somehow change without the user knowing, but it has features up the wazoo. If thats user error - fine.

Again, no drama needed. Haltech - no rpm/load based mapping of individual cylinders. Same for Wolf as I undertstand. Same for AEM. Same for Tec(whatever), and same for most other ECUs. Somewhere, someone, somehow realized the logic of saying that an engine is made up of individual separately run 1cyl engines x4, x6, x8, x10, x12 or 16 for hells bells.

So each intake runner will get slightly different air. Each exhaust will have slightly different pulse waves from the angles and exits. Would it not be logical to *be able* to have a map for each cylinder? On the 928 intake, some runners were 15% lean at the same rpm and load that others were 10% rich. At 32psi that seems pretty damn important to me.

And when I want to run some methanol with my ethanol - which ECU will allow me to put another dimension on the fuel table so I can properly utilize the methanol when its on? Many. But what if the methanol does not get evenly to each cylinder?

:typing::rockon: