Our Suspension Debate...
02-09-2007, 08:13 AM
#46
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by 333pg333
Well Rod I would like to know if that is a quantifiable difference between the 968 and the 944 or just a perceived impression. Not arguing, but not knowing this to be true either.
Simon, the difference that you felt is obtainable with the KW's and as I seem to keep harping on about it is largely the contemporary technology in the valving. You can have a GREAT car for the track and spirited road driving that doesn't shake the ancestors out of your bones. IT IS POSSIBLE. I have it now on my car. I can hit the kerbs on our tracks and just ride over them without getting a whole lot of unwanted bump steer / skitter unbalance. On my old Mo30's not only couldn't I do that but the car was also really tail happy under certain circumstances and prone to wanting to spin. (Which is what Rod/thingo has experienced on his 951) The difference on the road is also much better. It rides over corrugations much more 'SUPPLY' (?) and I have lot's more uncompromising upgrades on my car as well. If you just get one of the Variant 3 packs and keep your stock bushings you will feel like your in one of those BM's.
As I said try one of the cars local to you and you will buy them. I bet!!!
Hey your car looks nice too but very low which will exacerbate the rough feeling you have with the Mo30s.
Simon, the difference that you felt is obtainable with the KW's and as I seem to keep harping on about it is largely the contemporary technology in the valving. You can have a GREAT car for the track and spirited road driving that doesn't shake the ancestors out of your bones. IT IS POSSIBLE. I have it now on my car. I can hit the kerbs on our tracks and just ride over them without getting a whole lot of unwanted bump steer / skitter unbalance. On my old Mo30's not only couldn't I do that but the car was also really tail happy under certain circumstances and prone to wanting to spin. (Which is what Rod/thingo has experienced on his 951) The difference on the road is also much better. It rides over corrugations much more 'SUPPLY' (?) and I have lot's more uncompromising upgrades on my car as well. If you just get one of the Variant 3 packs and keep your stock bushings you will feel like your in one of those BM's.
As I said try one of the cars local to you and you will buy them. I bet!!!
Hey your car looks nice too but very low which will exacerbate the rough feeling you have with the Mo30s.
I read about them now at the PCUK forum - used to be a member but before the forum days. Tanx 4 the link. You sold me… :-)
Do you know roughly, of the top of your head what the upgrade would include and cost? What is involved? I presume 2 front and 2 rear shocks, but what about front and rear stabilizers - what size is best, is it worth going up from stock to those of the 968CS. I forget the sizes but I know that even with the M030 pack cars had different stabilizer bars size-wise. Anyone knows? Will measure mine when home from the office…
@rod; I think 968 feels “better” to you because of larger diameter stabilizer bars, and additional springs at the rear, if that's what you refer to when you say 968 has a "stiffer chassis" as otherwise apart from plastic trim, rear and front panels etc., (facelift), and the lights 968 and 944 are identical platforms shell wise.
Marketing is always to be taken with a pinch of salt…
02-09-2007, 08:25 AM
#47
Burning Brakes
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Bottom line on the factory M030 sway bar set is the "final iteration" as used in the late 968 variants....30 mm front and 19 mm three-position adjustable rear. Adding delrin to the chassis mounts of both serves to increase their roll resistance without greatly impacting other parts of the suspension. Factory M030 968 front control arm caster mount (the rear bushing on the front arms) also helps overall handling without sacrificing streetability.
Sway bar and caster mount upgrades are very effective, and less risky and labor intensive than the "next phase" of going to adjustable perch coil overs and new combinations of spring/torsion bar/shock valving rates....and their total cost is only around $700 including chassis bushings and caster mounts. Dampers, coil overs and new torsion bars quickly spiral into $1-2K range.
If your goal is better handling on public roads, you may find that the sway bar upgrade does a fine job all by itself. Below the car's handling limit, it will have more grip and less body roll. Only when you reach tractive limits in track situations will you begin to notice the nose to tail balance issues that require thoughtful (read expensive) springing and damping fixes.
Sway bar and caster mount upgrades are very effective, and less risky and labor intensive than the "next phase" of going to adjustable perch coil overs and new combinations of spring/torsion bar/shock valving rates....and their total cost is only around $700 including chassis bushings and caster mounts. Dampers, coil overs and new torsion bars quickly spiral into $1-2K range.
If your goal is better handling on public roads, you may find that the sway bar upgrade does a fine job all by itself. Below the car's handling limit, it will have more grip and less body roll. Only when you reach tractive limits in track situations will you begin to notice the nose to tail balance issues that require thoughtful (read expensive) springing and damping fixes.
Last edited by TheRealLefty; 02-09-2007 at 09:33 AM.
02-09-2007, 01:02 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by thingo
Yes the stock 968 is softer, but as soon as you come to terms with that you will realise it is only the suspension that is softer, the car is more rigid so it more connected to the road.I'm sure your car is faster and stiffer riding, but the 968 got the complements when it was released for a reason
02-09-2007, 05:00 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by SimonK
I read about them now at the PCUK forum - used to be a member but before the forum days. Tanx 4 the link. You sold me… :-)
Do you know roughly, of the top of your head what the upgrade would include and cost? What is involved? I presume 2 front and 2 rear shocks, but what about front and rear stabilizers - what size is best, is it worth going up from stock to those of the 968CS. I forget the sizes but I know that even with the M030 pack cars had different stabilizer bars size-wise. Anyone knows? Will measure mine when home from the office…
@rod; I think 968 feels “better” to you because of larger diameter stabilizer bars, and additional springs at the rear, if that's what you refer to when you say 968 has a "stiffer chassis" as otherwise apart from plastic trim, rear and front panels etc., (facelift), and the lights 968 and 944 are identical platforms shell wise.
Marketing is always to be taken with a pinch of salt…
in the right direction.
Patrick
02-09-2007, 07:01 PM
#51
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How can you even try and compare our 951's against a 30 year superior M3 E46 and further more Robby how can you compair and call the E36 better or even close to the E46... The original E30 M3 way a way better car than the E36 but not even close to a stock E46.
A friend of mine has an E46 M3 CSL - The best car bmw has ever made today and he has fitted Tein suspension with EDFC at each corner. I have never driven anything that can match this car and that includes a 997 for balance and drivability.
As already stated in this thread... Our cars are built on the best technology that was available in the early 70's, if not late 60's.
The 968 is also not a better handling car than ours... The gearbox is considerably heavier and adds to more lift-off ovesteer which can be very unpredictable compaired to a well sorted 951 with the same MO30 setup.
The conclusion for me is that our cars represent excellent value for money and a great basis to start building upon and that's why I love my 951
A friend of mine has an E46 M3 CSL - The best car bmw has ever made today and he has fitted Tein suspension with EDFC at each corner. I have never driven anything that can match this car and that includes a 997 for balance and drivability.
As already stated in this thread... Our cars are built on the best technology that was available in the early 70's, if not late 60's.
The 968 is also not a better handling car than ours... The gearbox is considerably heavier and adds to more lift-off ovesteer which can be very unpredictable compaired to a well sorted 951 with the same MO30 setup.
The conclusion for me is that our cars represent excellent value for money and a great basis to start building upon and that's why I love my 951
