Fishey

I have driven moddified M3's from every generation and I can tell you they have gotten worse not better. To say something that feels "more modern" is better is just a farse. I have to say that when people say more modern the thoughts that pop up into my mind are "Soft" "Pigish" "Understeer" "electronics". If that is what people are calling "better" you have better be joking me.

nick_968

M3 might 'ride better' than a 968 on the road in terms of comfort and compliancy over bumps but no way does it handle better. Its still heavier and it doesnt have the feel or feedback of the 968. Throw in a set of KW's and the BM is history. I have driven both cars quite a bit and would always take the 968 for handling, and the M3 for comfort and its gorgeous engine.

pole position

You can't compare a modified 968 to a stock M3....once modified , all bets are off and it will come down to the driver unless you want to compare a M3CSL to a 968 CS and the winner will be the BMW.

To make a more realistic comparison how outdated the 944 suspension platform is one should compare it to a Cayman S and after that drive will realize what 25-30 years of suspension development in Weissach did.

nick_968

I wasnt, I still choose the standard 968 round a track or on the road for handling due to the feedback and precision that allows you to be on the limit in safety.

azmi951

I can agree with some of that. On the BMW front I think one of the best cars built is the E30...bar none. It is such a fine car. Opposed to my dads POS 745Li...what a pig. The E30 proved that the essence of good design is simplicity.

My comments earlier about the virtues of the multilink are from a pure suspension standpoint excluding influinces from electronics and the rest of the fat that has been added to cars. If a multilink were put into a less fat car and the tuning did not compromise as much for ride comfort I'm willing to bet it would far surpass most other suspension designs for sheer performance.

I can also vouch for the E30 M3. A friend had one that had leda coilovers and springs, that thing was on rails. I had him on the straights but in turns he had me.

When I was at BMW M school in South Carolina I fadded the crap out of the E46 M3's brakes. This was after 5 runs on a short autocross track

Porschefile

Newer is better, period. Suspension setups on newer performance-oriented cars have advanced quite a bit in the last 20 years. You have lots of newer technology being used, more advanced suspension gemotry, CAD/CFD designed suspension components (did you know Porsche actually engineered 997 control arms to be more aerodynamic and reduce drag), newer damper technology......and the list goes on.

One area that many manufacturers are failing in is WEIGHT! Increased mass is generally counterproductive to improving handling (generally, not in all cases). True, many newer cars are getting a bit "soft" in the suspension area (soft valving and spring rates) however pretty much all newer performance cars still have more advanced suspension geometry than our archaic stuff. Things like multi-link suspension have great effects on ride quality and overall handling ability. Not to mention, most performance-oriented cars have much stiffer chassis' compared to older models.

So, even if a stock new car feels a bit "softer" then your (speaking generally, no one in particular) 951 with Koni's and stiffer springs, throw some upgraded dampers and stiffer springs on that newer sports car and you might be surprised. Every newer car isn't necessarily going to handle better than every older car but thinking that increased weight alone makes the lighter car a better handling car is a joke. That's like saying that an '88 Carrera with coilovers will handle better compared to a 996 with coilovers. Assuming similar factors like tire compound and sizes, hp/weight ratio, etc the 996 will win every time. For anyone that can't understand that, stop right here and hit the books again until you can. What is it about this group that has people believing their 20 yr old archaic sports car is a Mclaren F1?! See things for what they are and don't fool yourself.

Don't get me wrong. Older cars can handle great too (especially when you take into account modding suspension), though generally because of older-tech and out-dated suspension geometry you'll start with a bit of a disadvantage

Porschefile

The big differences you are feeling is multi-link suspension and newer damper technology. Also, a car with a heavier chassis tends to soak up road imperfections better than a similarly setup car that is significantly lighter. With trailing arms, our cars will always be at a slight disadvantage however a good set of dampers with properly matched spring rates will go a long way towards obtaining that "feel" or something close to it. Koni's suck for this because of their linear valving, though they're still better than nothing. You can of course have them converted to double adjustable which will help to fine tune things, though you'll still have the linear valving which really works against obtaining that progressive feel and better ride quality. There are some newer coilovers from manufacturers like JIC and KW that have better quality dampers IMO, and which could ultimately provide an improved ride quality with the right spring rates for your application (JIC has optional rates but their stock rates seem to be WAY too stiff).

Dampers and spring rates aren't everything though. A good alignment, more sport-oriented tires, upgraded sway bars, etc etc all make improvements in certain areas and are necessary to really complete a whole suspension package. Just FYI but, tires can have a drastic effect on ride quality too. Some tires have extremely stiff sidewalls which can cause the ride to end up being pretty rough. You don't want a soft sidewall either as handling will be negatively affected however due to the huge variety of tires there is always a good middle ground.

SimonK

I hear you Porsche File, and you are dead right about the importance of tires also. I remember putting Bridgestone Potenza S02 Pole Position on my car and the car felt so much softer. I couldn’t drive my car in that tire combo (I actually loathed it) although they did stick to the road amazingly well but handling went from nice and crisp to soft sponge. This was because the side wall of S02’s is really soft comparing to the Pirelli P0 Rosso. The Pirellis however make the car stiffer, crisp and sharp but once you lose tire thread the car becomes really hard over bumps and road imperfections…

Where do you guys keep the front adjustable KONIS stiffness wise (hard-soft) and does it make any noticeable difference on the street?

PS. I was actually under the wrong impression that our KONIS were awesome shocks as they were race components 15 years ago. But I guess I was mistaken…

333pg333

Firstly what is it that you want to do with your car Simon? Then just save up and get the relevant KW Variant kit. I will pay for it if you don't like it (fingers crossed) but seriously, get on to the PCGB forum http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tt.asp?forumid=15
and ask them what they think of KW's. I bet there's someone near you with them installed that will be happy to take you for a ride, or even drive the car.
I really should be on commission with the company but they are SOOOOOOOO much better than my old (but freshly rebuilt) Mo30's with 968cs rear helpers, that it was chalk and cheese. Do what I say and then buy them.
Patrick

SimonK

Well it's not really what I want to do question... I was quite happy with handling of my car, until driving the M3 and now I am all puzzled… I think it’s just the suppleness and sophistication of the M3 that surprised me. It is stiff but at the same time absorbing road imperfections really well. Whilst my car is also stiff but not supple. You feel every bump through your teeth. That I suppose is the difference. So, I am thinking can we dial in this supple sophistication into our cars but not in a way of making them softer?

Well, you are selling KW’s to me terribly well, so I will definitely check it out.

TheRealLefty

There is a difference between grip and feel, gentlemen. Granted, modern multilinks are less likely to exhibit disruptive motions that can unsettle a speeding car and allow the driver to go fast with a bit less drama, but bottom line on 944's is that they can generate nearly 1 G in grip with modern R compound tires and have a very predictable nature when well adjusted, thanks to 50/50 weight distribution and a low polar moment of inertia.

Not knocking E30 or E36 M3 suspensions...they are tremendous. I've owned E30's and been skunked in competiton by E36's....but the Bimmers do not hold a big "handling edge" over prepped 951's of similar power to weight ratio, IMO.

Porschefile

Koni's work just fine. They are good quality shocks. For more than casual track use, they are no match for a good matched coilover setup. Though the yellow sports, at least, leave a lot to be desired as far as ride quality goes IMO. Personally, going with stiffer springs than 250#, I feel that the ride is more comfortable as I can now set the rebound to full soft for a smoother ride however the stiffer spring rates keep the car in check so it doesn't weight transfer too much. Before, at 250#, when set to full soft I personally thought the car still moved around a bit too much because under heavy braking I was still able to drag the front under tray on the ground (yes, my Koni's were new) which IMO is unacceptable for "upgrade" suspension. I know many are going to disagree with me but, IMO most 944's are under-sprung. Stock spring rates for everything, including the 951S, are ridiculously WAY too soft to the point where people are adjusting their rebound to limit suspension travel as a result of the lack of spring rate. People need to tough it up and start running some manly spring rates! j/k

I'd be willing to bet money that the difference in ride quality you are feeling between the 2 cars is largely a result of valving (what dampers did the M3 have?). With linear valving like this, hitting a bump at say 30mph and hitting the same exact bump at 130mph it will still result in the same exact compression rate for the size of the bump. IMO, this makes a car feel more unsettling at speed and on less than smooth road surfaces. With digressive valving, compression and rebound are kind of constantly variable depending on the amount of load and the interval that the load lasts. It's sort of like the difference between linear and progressive springs.

One other thing you are feeling is the M3's multi-link suspension. With similar supporting components multi-link will naturally ride better than a torsion bar and trailing arm setup. There are some definite improvements you can make with the suspension/chassis setups on our cars, however ultimately you will still have to deal with the trailing arm setup so the car is probably never going to ride 100% like an M3 that has a decent suspension setup. Though, with some work you can get close enough.

The main thing I suggest is considering your budget. It sounds like you have a good idea of what type of ride quality that you want. There are a lot of routes you could take to get there, though some are significantly more expensive than others. If you don't mind spending $2-3k on a good set of coilovers, I'd highly recommend considering something like Ledas, KW's, or JIC. If you want to stay on more of a budget, personally I say stick with koni yellows as you have lots of options with those. Do the Paragon coilover conversion, select some stiffer spring rates, and for an inexpensive price you can have them custom valved to the rates. That alone will make a big improvement over what you have now. If you're still running stock springs, 250# isn't too terribly bad and it's certainly worlds better than stock so I'd at least upgrade to those. Preferrably, with 250# springs I'd run 27mm TB's to balance it out. Regardless of what others may say, running stock TB's and 250# fronts won't have some horrible effect on the balance or handling of the car. You'll get just a bit more understeer but, it's not that bad. I'm sure the same people that think so are also running weaksauce 205 tires in the front too!

TD in DC

I regularly generate in excess of 1G with RA1s. I haven't driven any of the BMWs in anger, but they seem to be pretty well balanced as well. The nice thing about my '84 944 is that it has zero electonics and no power steering, which means that I am all I have to work with on the track, which forces you to learn how to "feel" what your car is doing.

I do know that the spec E30s do pretty damned well on the track . . .

Porschefile

Judging by SimonK's posts, we're mainly talking about "feel" here and how to acheive improved handling without acheiving the ride quality of a covered wagon! j/k

SimonK

Someone mentioned that 968 are better handling than our 951. I haven’t driven a 968 CS but I drove a normal 968 & it felt worse handling than 944TS to me?

But then again my car is lowered (to the max – governed by the rear drop), so how much does just lowering of our cars improve the handling?

So what is the difference between these two platforms – 951S and 968CS with stock components M030 pack? I know 968’s have additional springs at rear but with the same M030 pack they should be close or am I off again…