MAXTRONIC..MAXTUNE..VR-LiveEdit..Let the games begin!!!...Competition In The 951 Mkt
12-05-2006, 04:04 AM
#61
Pro
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sammamish, WA
Posts: 708
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think by universal - he ment on what 'base-map' chip you can use. I.E. with the Maxtronic you can use any chip; Vitesse you have to start with the Vitesse map.
Since I am still working on MaxTune, there's no point in trying to compare it to VR's tuning software. And since VR is not offering a device, there is nothing to compare the Maxtronic to.
12-05-2006, 06:43 PM
#62
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by rberry951
LOL!
No, not Danno, I'm Russell. People on the email forums will remember me from years ago, but I never came to the online forum much. And I've learned a lot here, how the market is structured, how to provide the best products and services, and not to talk about the products I'm developing anymore until they ship. That last part is really sad because many people told me they enjoyed seeing the nitty gritty of my development process. Oh well. Such is life.
Regards,
Russell
No, not Danno, I'm Russell. People on the email forums will remember me from years ago, but I never came to the online forum much. And I've learned a lot here, how the market is structured, how to provide the best products and services, and not to talk about the products I'm developing anymore until they ship. That last part is really sad because many people told me they enjoyed seeing the nitty gritty of my development process. Oh well. Such is life.
Regards,
Russell
12-05-2006, 09:03 PM
#63
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: East Coast
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris, Russell, et al.
Since I am the author of this thread, I thought that it was important for ME to explain myself, especially in response to the following statement.
"I hope both vendors in question prosper – and I hope that their products work well. The only point I was trying to make it hat this will not happen if there is a price war and that is what thought the original poster was so gleefully expecting."
Yes, the intent of my original post was to higlight the prospect of competition between Vitesse and Maxtronic. Whether "gleefully", or slightly less glessful, the intent was the same - COMPETITON IS GOOD FOR ANY MARKET.
This is Economics 101 (as taught to many college students in the USA), the 951 is BETTER SERVED by having multiple vendors offering similar products with the MAIN difference being PRICE, SERVICE, or TECHNOLOGY. If a vendor feels that their product is fairly priced, but begins to feels the competitive pressure, the vendor is free to OFFER SUPERIOR SERVICE (post sale support), REDUCE PRICING, or ADD SUPERIOR TECHNOLOGY to the BASE PRODUCT, as a counter-attack.
As I "gleefully" stated in the origin of this post, the CONSUMER (CUSTOMER) is the BENEFICIARY of this COMPETITON!!! So yes, LET THE GAMES BEGIN. This is the BASIS of FREE ENTERPRISE, as practiced in the USA.With this in mind, it's the CONSUMER'S RESPONSIBILITY to be EDUCATED and UNDERSTAND which vendor is offering the BEST BANG for his/her $$$$.
Since CHIP TUNING is pretty much a COMMODITY, it makes NO SENSE for a TUNER to sell their chip (service) for a PREMIUM, if there is NO VALUE ADD. I'm sure that MOST RENNLISTERS would view VALUE ADD as SUPERIOR (tuning) TECHNOLOGY. Given the current 951 market consensus that Vitesse, and MAXCHIP, offer AFM chips that are similar in technological capability and comprable post-sale support (I can personally attest to this point), THE ONLY OTHER DIFFERENTIAL THAT WOULD POSITIVELY BENEFIT 951 OWNERS IS A LOWER PRICE POINT.
Given these factors, it's obvious that MAXCHIP has MADE a CONSCIOUS BUSINESS DECISION to offer AFM chips at a LOWER PRICE POINT(and still feel that they can still offer comprable post sales support) than the competiton, and the result, a 951 (CONSUMER) market whose ECONOMIC INTEREST is BEST SERVED.
Chris, I noticed in ONE of your posts, you tried to imply that 951 owners don't have the same economic clout as other car fanatics, could you please show me a survey that highlights the economic status, or household incomes of 951 owners, because I'm sure that it's higher than you suspect.
On another note Chris, for you to assume that a VENDOR is SKIMPING in area (like post sales support), without personally knowing the ecnomics of their business model, is quite presumptious. I'm not an economist, but I DO WORK in the software field (like Russell), and I know that the ECONOMIES OF SCALE for the majority of software vendors is HUGE (just ask Bill Gates).
At the end of the day, the economics of burning chips is similar to MICROSOFT burning copies of Windows XP on CDs. You re-coup your R&D in the first wave of sales, the REST is GRAVY. The COST of CUSTOMER SUPPORT is miniscule compared to the OVERALL PROFIT MARGIN attained by these tuners (software sellers) from economies of scale, just like any other software vendor. To paraphrase a previous poster in this thread "the cost of the chips themselves is NOT THAT MUCH", so what else goes in the manufacturing process - oh yeah - burning the SOFTWARE, packaging (a box with a label), and shipping, not exactly high capital expenses.
Chris, to imply that the PRFOIT MARGINS of 951 chip vendors are similar to GROCERS in the USA (who work on 2-3% profit margins at best), and therefore, low pricing forces them to make cuts in CRITICAL AREAS like CUSTOMER SUPPORT is really STREEEETCHING THINGS.
I'm sorry Chris, but your swipes at me for "gleefully" welcoming REDUCED chip pricing because of VENDOR COMPETITION, are supported by mis-applied logic on your part. In fact, if the OPPOSITE were to conitnue to happen, limited number of vendors and high pricing, I am absolutely sure that the 951 market would continue to wither away, like the after-mkt for ANY limited production car.
That being said, I need to talk to you about an engine re-build for my 951, what's your email address???
Since I am the author of this thread, I thought that it was important for ME to explain myself, especially in response to the following statement.
"I hope both vendors in question prosper – and I hope that their products work well. The only point I was trying to make it hat this will not happen if there is a price war and that is what thought the original poster was so gleefully expecting."
Yes, the intent of my original post was to higlight the prospect of competition between Vitesse and Maxtronic. Whether "gleefully", or slightly less glessful, the intent was the same - COMPETITON IS GOOD FOR ANY MARKET.
This is Economics 101 (as taught to many college students in the USA), the 951 is BETTER SERVED by having multiple vendors offering similar products with the MAIN difference being PRICE, SERVICE, or TECHNOLOGY. If a vendor feels that their product is fairly priced, but begins to feels the competitive pressure, the vendor is free to OFFER SUPERIOR SERVICE (post sale support), REDUCE PRICING, or ADD SUPERIOR TECHNOLOGY to the BASE PRODUCT, as a counter-attack.
As I "gleefully" stated in the origin of this post, the CONSUMER (CUSTOMER) is the BENEFICIARY of this COMPETITON!!! So yes, LET THE GAMES BEGIN. This is the BASIS of FREE ENTERPRISE, as practiced in the USA.With this in mind, it's the CONSUMER'S RESPONSIBILITY to be EDUCATED and UNDERSTAND which vendor is offering the BEST BANG for his/her $$$$.
Since CHIP TUNING is pretty much a COMMODITY, it makes NO SENSE for a TUNER to sell their chip (service) for a PREMIUM, if there is NO VALUE ADD. I'm sure that MOST RENNLISTERS would view VALUE ADD as SUPERIOR (tuning) TECHNOLOGY. Given the current 951 market consensus that Vitesse, and MAXCHIP, offer AFM chips that are similar in technological capability and comprable post-sale support (I can personally attest to this point), THE ONLY OTHER DIFFERENTIAL THAT WOULD POSITIVELY BENEFIT 951 OWNERS IS A LOWER PRICE POINT.
Given these factors, it's obvious that MAXCHIP has MADE a CONSCIOUS BUSINESS DECISION to offer AFM chips at a LOWER PRICE POINT(and still feel that they can still offer comprable post sales support) than the competiton, and the result, a 951 (CONSUMER) market whose ECONOMIC INTEREST is BEST SERVED.
Chris, I noticed in ONE of your posts, you tried to imply that 951 owners don't have the same economic clout as other car fanatics, could you please show me a survey that highlights the economic status, or household incomes of 951 owners, because I'm sure that it's higher than you suspect.
On another note Chris, for you to assume that a VENDOR is SKIMPING in area (like post sales support), without personally knowing the ecnomics of their business model, is quite presumptious. I'm not an economist, but I DO WORK in the software field (like Russell), and I know that the ECONOMIES OF SCALE for the majority of software vendors is HUGE (just ask Bill Gates).
At the end of the day, the economics of burning chips is similar to MICROSOFT burning copies of Windows XP on CDs. You re-coup your R&D in the first wave of sales, the REST is GRAVY. The COST of CUSTOMER SUPPORT is miniscule compared to the OVERALL PROFIT MARGIN attained by these tuners (software sellers) from economies of scale, just like any other software vendor. To paraphrase a previous poster in this thread "the cost of the chips themselves is NOT THAT MUCH", so what else goes in the manufacturing process - oh yeah - burning the SOFTWARE, packaging (a box with a label), and shipping, not exactly high capital expenses.
Chris, to imply that the PRFOIT MARGINS of 951 chip vendors are similar to GROCERS in the USA (who work on 2-3% profit margins at best), and therefore, low pricing forces them to make cuts in CRITICAL AREAS like CUSTOMER SUPPORT is really STREEEETCHING THINGS.
I'm sorry Chris, but your swipes at me for "gleefully" welcoming REDUCED chip pricing because of VENDOR COMPETITION, are supported by mis-applied logic on your part. In fact, if the OPPOSITE were to conitnue to happen, limited number of vendors and high pricing, I am absolutely sure that the 951 market would continue to wither away, like the after-mkt for ANY limited production car.
That being said, I need to talk to you about an engine re-build for my 951, what's your email address???
12-06-2006, 12:35 AM
#66
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jy951
At the end of the day, the economics of burning chips is similar to MICROSOFT burning copies of Windows XP on CDs. You re-coup your R&D in the first wave of sales, the REST is GRAVY.???
XP was priced $99 at Office Max on October 25th, 2001; and what does it cost today? A hundred bucks.
12-06-2006, 12:39 AM
#67
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Ok, just for the mental exercise – lets go from econ 101 to reality 101.
There are several issues that are being conveniently overlooked –
The 951 market is small and shrinking everyday. There will be no additional 951s made and everytime one is crashed or the owner buys a chip the chup market is reduced. Economy of scale (as in Microsoft and other examples) is not there.
Customer support (a favorite issue of mine) – Autothority had a good deal making chips when the 951 was fairly new. The platform is now 20 years old. I know from a fair amount of experience that just about each and every 951 reacts a little differently to mods. Wear on all the components creates a many unique results. I have a fair number of tec3’s out there and each ends up with a slightly different tune to take into account different mods, different efficiencies and just plain wear. This requires a fair amount of customer support. I think that everybody will find that the new batch of emulator based ‘tune your own’ products will require a lot of customer support. The typical customer is not going to be an EFI expert, but more like a common guy that thinks he/she is getting something that they think is ‘better’ than a simple chip.
Since I have experience in helping customer tune their cars I do wonder how a vendor can afford to support these products (mainly the emulators but also the chips as the prices fall) – until now the price structure has been high enough that the vendors can afford to offer good support and the customer comments currently reflect his. If we use the basic economic models we can assume that as the price drops the quantity sold will go up – that means for the same profit margin the vendor will have to offer more support. I spent at least half my ‘office’ time talking to customers and prospective customers for free. Some of it is support, some of it you could call marketing – but I do know that if my support time doubled with out a significant increase in revenue I would have to either stay up a lot later or just not be as helpful – neither of which I would relish.
In fact I have thought it over about what I would do if I were in the Motronic editing market – here is my answer (and I am glad I am not in that market right now!!). I would offer the product at a very low price with pay as you go support. (now I am sounding like Microsoft!). It would work for the technically inclined but the ‘regular’ guys would take a beating in the long run. How about a $50 chip/software/base map with a $25 per call support fee (15 minute max)? Any thoughts on how you think that would work? (hey - I’m not being sarcastic here – how do you think that would work?)
I might agree with your premise if chips/software is treated like a commodity – but my view of the market is a little different – most sales will result in phone calls and support.
The other issue you raised is about R&D. That is the other area that may be driving the ‘old’ market price structure. I know that my knowledge of what the 951 engine can and can’t do was gained by building and testing motors. Pretty damn expensive R&D over the years. I purposely ran an early Cometic head gasket engine as hard as possible on the track until it failed. (Melted at #4 just like the regular gaskets) - that is a piece of information that cost me $3000 right there – but I felt I needed that info if I was going to use that gasket in customers engines. Do you want to know what timing values will cause a stock alusil cylinder to crack? I know that one too.
I look at new products all the time and I generally only trust stuff that has shows engineering merit and has a level of R&D that I am comfortable with. I suppose my great assumption is that the vendors of these products have also invested a bunch of time, money and effort in their products (as opposed to taking a guess on what will work and selling it – some of you ‘old’ guys may remember the Cyntex chips from a few years ago….)
Conclusion – this is a very small niche market (large scale economics don’t apply) – it seems to be producing decent products right now (anybody here remember what it was like 5 years ago? – it sucked). If you are an optimist you can hope that the prices will come down due to good old fashion competition. If you are a pessimist you might see that some vendors that were doing OK will find that the ‘new order’ doesn’t work for them and they will go elsewhere that will be the community’s loss.
Oh yeah – the economic clout tissue – simple but true – the big build supras/Z/911/BWM can cost over $100k – there are quite a few of them out there. It’s typically a big event when a 951 lister spends $10k. That’s just the market – it’s got nothing to do with household incomes. The 951 attracts a value sensitive following – that’s why I have one (OK several). The survey I use is called the Rennlist. Read it enough and you get a feel for the market.
Enough rambling for now….
BTW – you can get me at chris@944enhancement.com !
There are several issues that are being conveniently overlooked –
The 951 market is small and shrinking everyday. There will be no additional 951s made and everytime one is crashed or the owner buys a chip the chup market is reduced. Economy of scale (as in Microsoft and other examples) is not there.
Customer support (a favorite issue of mine) – Autothority had a good deal making chips when the 951 was fairly new. The platform is now 20 years old. I know from a fair amount of experience that just about each and every 951 reacts a little differently to mods. Wear on all the components creates a many unique results. I have a fair number of tec3’s out there and each ends up with a slightly different tune to take into account different mods, different efficiencies and just plain wear. This requires a fair amount of customer support. I think that everybody will find that the new batch of emulator based ‘tune your own’ products will require a lot of customer support. The typical customer is not going to be an EFI expert, but more like a common guy that thinks he/she is getting something that they think is ‘better’ than a simple chip.
Since I have experience in helping customer tune their cars I do wonder how a vendor can afford to support these products (mainly the emulators but also the chips as the prices fall) – until now the price structure has been high enough that the vendors can afford to offer good support and the customer comments currently reflect his. If we use the basic economic models we can assume that as the price drops the quantity sold will go up – that means for the same profit margin the vendor will have to offer more support. I spent at least half my ‘office’ time talking to customers and prospective customers for free. Some of it is support, some of it you could call marketing – but I do know that if my support time doubled with out a significant increase in revenue I would have to either stay up a lot later or just not be as helpful – neither of which I would relish.
In fact I have thought it over about what I would do if I were in the Motronic editing market – here is my answer (and I am glad I am not in that market right now!!). I would offer the product at a very low price with pay as you go support. (now I am sounding like Microsoft!). It would work for the technically inclined but the ‘regular’ guys would take a beating in the long run. How about a $50 chip/software/base map with a $25 per call support fee (15 minute max)? Any thoughts on how you think that would work? (hey - I’m not being sarcastic here – how do you think that would work?)
I might agree with your premise if chips/software is treated like a commodity – but my view of the market is a little different – most sales will result in phone calls and support.
The other issue you raised is about R&D. That is the other area that may be driving the ‘old’ market price structure. I know that my knowledge of what the 951 engine can and can’t do was gained by building and testing motors. Pretty damn expensive R&D over the years. I purposely ran an early Cometic head gasket engine as hard as possible on the track until it failed. (Melted at #4 just like the regular gaskets) - that is a piece of information that cost me $3000 right there – but I felt I needed that info if I was going to use that gasket in customers engines. Do you want to know what timing values will cause a stock alusil cylinder to crack? I know that one too.
I look at new products all the time and I generally only trust stuff that has shows engineering merit and has a level of R&D that I am comfortable with. I suppose my great assumption is that the vendors of these products have also invested a bunch of time, money and effort in their products (as opposed to taking a guess on what will work and selling it – some of you ‘old’ guys may remember the Cyntex chips from a few years ago….)
Conclusion – this is a very small niche market (large scale economics don’t apply) – it seems to be producing decent products right now (anybody here remember what it was like 5 years ago? – it sucked). If you are an optimist you can hope that the prices will come down due to good old fashion competition. If you are a pessimist you might see that some vendors that were doing OK will find that the ‘new order’ doesn’t work for them and they will go elsewhere that will be the community’s loss.
Oh yeah – the economic clout tissue – simple but true – the big build supras/Z/911/BWM can cost over $100k – there are quite a few of them out there. It’s typically a big event when a 951 lister spends $10k. That’s just the market – it’s got nothing to do with household incomes. The 951 attracts a value sensitive following – that’s why I have one (OK several). The survey I use is called the Rennlist. Read it enough and you get a feel for the market.
Enough rambling for now….
BTW – you can get me at chris@944enhancement.com !
12-06-2006, 03:52 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
Good reply Chris. 
12-06-2006, 08:30 AM
#70
Race Car
Originally Posted by Got Me a Porsha
That's wonderful! So I can wait till after the first wave of sales of XP, and the price will come down to the cost of the CD, label, and packaging? You do know what a blank CD costs...right?
XP was priced $99 at Office Max on October 25th, 2001; and what does it cost today? A hundred bucks.
XP was priced $99 at Office Max on October 25th, 2001; and what does it cost today? A hundred bucks.
TS
12-06-2006, 08:33 AM
#71
Race Car
Originally Posted by Chris White
Ok, just for the mental exercise – lets go from econ 101 to reality 101.!
TS
12-06-2006, 09:07 AM
#72
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Originally Posted by 951and944S
So you're officially jumping back into this discussion...?
TS
TS
I am up for debates and alike - but it if gets nasty then I am out! the only thing you get from an internet pissing match is lots of little damp spots on your pants.....
12-06-2006, 09:40 AM
#73
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: ottawa
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris your back on top . debates go back and forth yes the 944 market is very tiny remember 944 online the guy was from Olklahoma I think great web site great prices in 6 months he was gone, maybe he is selling on ebay. Yes the market is small but when you are pricing your products at triple what you can get else now what do you think happens guys are not blind why is everybody shopping at wallmart, in the past it was kmart lower prices same products. People will allways go for the lower price all things being equel.
12-06-2006, 10:13 AM
#74
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Originally Posted by pk951
People will allways go for the lower price all things being equel.
First - There’s the rub - "all things being equal" In this market the chip/black box/software is not really the product – the product is how it has been programmed and supported. Would I go for a Chinese piston that looked like a JE but was better because it was 10% lighter and 20% cheaper? Not on face value – but if they showed me a F1 level R&D facility I might just get interested!
Second - that’s where the Wal-Mart comparison fails. Wal-Mart doesn’t ‘make’ anything –they just sell stuff. No R&D, customer support, product testing and engineering – they just move product.
So here is an interesting philosophical question – would you spend more on a product if you knew that some of the money was going to support future developments for the 951 community or would you just go with the least expensive version of the product that was already on the market? (please don’t read too much into this and relate this to any existing issues – this is a philosophical question only!!)
12-06-2006, 10:19 AM
#75
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by Chris White
Ok, just for the mental exercise – lets go from econ 101 to reality 101. There are several issues that are being conveniently overlooked – The 951 market is small and shrinking everyday. There will be no additional 951s made and every time one is crashed or the owner buys a chip the chip market is reduced. Economy of scale (as in Microsoft and other examples) is not there.
Conclusion – this is a very small niche market (large scale economics don’t apply) – it seems to be producing decent products right now (anybody here remember what it was like 5 years ago? – it sucked). If you are an optimist you can hope that the prices will come down due to good old fashion competition. If you are a pessimist you might see that some vendors that were doing OK will find that the ‘new order’ doesn'’t work for them and they will go elsewhere that will be the community’s loss.
Enough rambling for now….
BTW – you can get me at chris@944enhancement.com !
Conclusion – this is a very small niche market (large scale economics don’t apply) – it seems to be producing decent products right now (anybody here remember what it was like 5 years ago? – it sucked). If you are an optimist you can hope that the prices will come down due to good old fashion competition. If you are a pessimist you might see that some vendors that were doing OK will find that the ‘new order’ doesn'’t work for them and they will go elsewhere that will be the community’s loss.
Enough rambling for now….
BTW – you can get me at chris@944enhancement.com !
