Pauerman

I couldn't agree more with your comments. It's always nice when you buy a product and it performs as advertised.

The issue I see is that some of the comments made in this thread convey the wrong message. "Great" products cost more money and cheaper products are substandard and lacking in the "support" catagory. When a new product comes to the 951 market, should it be received with such skepticism and misinformation? "Hell, I can get a data dump from anybodies chip and make a minor change and call it mine and blow it out the door. Its been done before and I am sure it will be done again" Are comments like this justified especially when it is in reference to a site Sponsor's new product? Hasn't there been a positive response by many users here with regard to their improved results and support they've received?

"You want competition for cheap chips? Then don’t expect the level of customization and customer support that you have been getting from any of the chip guys" How is this an accurate statement when the guy posting it hasn't even used the product or is even aware of the level of customization that the Maxtronic will offer?!?

Yet, in the following post - "And for those of you that are considering the ‘new’ generation of stuff that allows you to mess with all the parameters….be careful – you can easily go a little too far and do some damage," it's obvious that he's aware of the product's future capabilities but fails to mention the safeguards that will be implemented into the software that will protect an unfamiliar end user from blowing up their engine. This isn't mentioned cause these statements are made on assumptions and arent' accurate. I consider this product to have a high level of customization.

Again, it's great giving praise to a product and/or vendor if you're a satisfied customer. Making "general" statements that imply a Sponsor's new product lacks the experience, support or level of customization in comparison to a product that he vouches for is simply wrong. Standing by a product and recommending it is one thing, but if your 2 cents revolves around a personal or business relationship that may impact the impression of a new product being offered - keep it to yourself. For the guys who are really wanting to learn about future mods, this type of info only serves to create confusion.

It's absolutely awesome that new products are becoming available for the 951 that are, as a benefit, being priced very competetively. Let's not stifle any new or innovative products based on schoolyard cliques.

porshhhh951

funny thing is those above comments weren't even from John haha

Andial951

Wow..........very well put.........

Pauerman

What's that supposed to mean John?

Haha

I wasn't directing the quoted comments at anyone. My only point was to illustrate some of the BS that floats around here. If you can't see that too bad.

porshhhh951

haha no man I get what you're saying. I just thought it was kinda funny.

jeez man everyone needs to take a chill pill around here. Its the internet.

pk951

Well put I see there are guys on this board that can see were some guys are comming from. What the board is lacking is info on what works, and not allways buy from this tuner and that tuner most turbos cost 1000$ to 1400$ at most there are most of the time t04e with 8 hot side, trim could be 50 to 57 or 60to 1 deepens what hp you are after. A good set of chips Wg, BC, and you should be macking at 15psi close to 300whp or more if you run more boost. There is no need to spend 4000$ on a system to make 325rwhp at 17psi If guys would help each other out they would spend a lot less and get the same results as the guy who spent 4000$ to make the same hp. But we don't see that much on here most guys will tell you go with this tuner or that tuner, that guy is charger you 3 times as much, granted there are guys that don't know that much about cars so they will go with the tuner of there choice. If you have been on this site for any number of years, and looked at dyno charts with different turbos you will see there is not much difference with say a k27/8 to a to4e at 15 psi. It is very diffacult to run high boost without the higher octane. So the point I 'am trying to make is more info should be on this board other than go with tuner or that tuner, he is the best same old bull**** we have heard it to may times.

rberry951

pk951, kudos! THAT is the spirit that brought me to the Rennlist email list years ago, as a member, not a tuner, I wasn't a tuner then other than for my own car and didn't even talk about that to others here that I didn't know personally. But indeed, it USED to be a community of people who helped each other without any regard to who used who's products. Comparisons were done on a technical level and opinions were stated as opinions. What happened?

Regards,
Russell

333pg333

I think many of these comments are valid which also include the criticisms, however there have been some fly by nighters out there who do just re-program a chip for example and charge you for it without doing any homework. This could have catastrophic consequences on your car which would be very bad. So the guys that have been doing this for a while and do offer very good before and after sales support deserve to sell their product to whomever wants it. As I said before no-one is forcing you to buy anything. If you're good enough to put something together yourself well hats off to you. Lets hear from the guys that have done that and blown their engines too. Most business's that succeed develop some sort of P.R. machine whether it's through devoted supporters or their own advertising. Just to give you an alternative, a Porsche U.K. site that I go onto has very strict guidelines about vendors spruiking their products online and get moderated off if they do it too often. It's a much more conservative site yet it's also restrictive due to this. My thoughts are that the U.S. is the pinnacle of free trade and capitalism, so if you make a good and successful product and people are willing to buy it well good luck to you. In the case of the 2 vendors subject of this post they're in a different stage of their existences and it's great that they can provide choice for all of us.

jy951

'the guy who started this thread is a troublemaker' = ?????

Are U SMOKING CRACK!!!!!

I started this thread because I WANT A COMPETITIVE MARKET WITH LOWER PRICES for the 951 products I purchase!!!!!

Now that I've finished giving you an ECONOMICS 101 Lesson, I'm also a PURCHASER OF MANY SERVICES offered by RENNLIST vendors, including ONE of the vendors mentioned in MY THREAD!!!

Believe me, Russell GAINS NOTHING BY IGNORING ME, as u suggest - case closed.

Porschefile

Personally, it's my opinion that some of these issues in our community, and much of the Porsche world in general, all boil down to a matter of intellectual property. I personally believe the basic issues are protection and over-protection of intellectual property. IMO it's more of an actual result of parts of our market itself and not necessarily limited to some individuals. Luckily the Porsche community is largely more of an "open" group compared to some more exotic/exclusive car groups like Ferrari, Lamborghini or many others. Though, I've noticed that you still see many retailers, individuals, etc very protective of "intellectual property" (or what may be perceived as such). For those interested, I'd recommend reading the following testimony, by a software developer, in a congressional hearing: Link The topics are different though I think many facets of what this guy said applies to a broad spectrum of things (economics, healthcare, technology, etc), including some of the market trends and associated "attitudes" with these trends in our community as well. I've noticed in the Porsche world that some people tend to be a bit too over-protective with IP and what they perceive to be IP. As that software developer stated, over-protection of IP can be just as stifling and damaging to innovation and forward progression as under protection of IP can be. I whole-heartedly agree with that statement, though that's just my opinon. I think some individuals and retailers in the Porsche community, sometimes, keep a stranglehold on information and IP among other things. Possibly this is in an effort to protect their livelihood or to control their perspective markets. This can be perfectly fine and is completely understandable when it comes to custom processes, components, etc that are the rightful property of the owner/developer. You have to protect your own self-interests. However, when it doesn't have to do with an individual's IP, the over-protection of things like educational information can only serve to hold the community back in innovation and furthering one's knowledge. That to me is counter-productive, constricts the market, and only serves to keep the consumer in the dark. Who really wants to be a lemming?!

I swear to god guys, I haven't been copy/pasting posts off google or anything! I love this community and have developed some strong feelings regarding certain issues in our community, though I can't seem to keep things concise and to the point lately. I'd like to see us progress forward as enthusiasts, and personally I feel that is what the entire point is of forums such as this. We're all generally here for the same things though, and I think it would make a nicer atmosphere if we could approach things in more of an open and inquisitive manner rather than so readily attacking companies or individuals that don't conform with the mainstream.

All of that being said, on the other side of things is the consumers. Consumers are demanding, period. Some consumers simply want proven products, some consumers demand more information, and some consumers demand proper value. If all sides of this market can't learn to work together, it's only going to stifle the market. Competition, among other things, is only going to serve to improve the market in many ways. Let us all be glad that anyone still supports our old "beaters"!

333pg333

Here here!!!

porshhhh951

quite easily post of the month.

well said

special tool

UUUUUUH - kindly refrain from using the word "feelings" in this car forum.
A worse turbo tech forum profanity I cannot imagine.....

awilson40

Because when you do, you get slamed for giving out 'proprietary information' and receive all kinds of nasty hate e-mails.

Chris White

Perhaps you misunderstood what I was trying to say -

That comment was made on this thread – which is entitled “MAXTRONIC..MAXTUNE..VR-LiveEdit..Let the games begin!!!...Competition In The 951 Mkt” and , at least in my understanding was mainly addressing the possibility of a price war between two vendors.

OK, perhaps I did not express what I was thinking very well…I was not implying that either of the two vendors was doing this – I don’t know one way or the other. I was just reacting to somebody just wanting a cheap price. If the poster had mentioned that he was happy about a competition to make better products - that I would be fine with it. But he did not, It was all about pricing – and my example was that coping chips can be done pretty cheaply – with no R&D I could price them cheaply and make a buck. Sooo, maybe that’s a bad example that somebody could misconstrue – if so, sorry about that  it was not my intention to imply that anybody addressed in this thread was coping chips

No comment was directed at any vendor or their products. As I said – I have not used either and I had no intention of raising any questions about any product – the comments have to do with the ‘glee’ in which a lister was expecting to reap the gains of a price war. We already have competition amongst vendors – that is healthy, a price war is not.

Umm, who is ‘he’? Is that the vendor or the customer? Either way – I don’t know where you are going on this item. My point is that you can easily exceed the safe operating parameters of a 951 engine. If you are saying that there will be safeguards set in the software - the only way you can set ‘fool proof’ safeguards is to dumb down the whole thing to such a level that it is not very useful. Again – my point is that the product (which ever one - including the Tec3 stuff) can easily be set (in inexperienced hands) in such a way as to hurt the motor. If you know what you are doing then great – but many, in fact a vast majority, do not know what is safe when it comes to tuning an engine for max output. One of my favorite quotes over the years was from a dyno owner - I had pretty much dialed in a tec3 system on his Mustang dyno and just for yucks I asked him what he thought – his answer was a question – how much is your R&D budget. I said that I could play on the dyno as long as he wanted. He then pointed out that the only way to really know the maximum potential of the engine was to run it until it broke…so it the budget big enough so that you can build a second engine? Technically he is right. Sure, if you are very experienced with engines you can tell when you are getting to aggressive…but will the typical customer know this?

Back to the point – any product that allows you to have control over the engines operating parameters can be a dangerous thing and will require a lot of customer support to get good results (for most folks). If there is a ‘price war’ the first thing to go is customer support – because it takes time. This is not aimed at any vendor - its just that I have seen it before.

I really don’t know where you got that impression – If I had directed this at somebody or posted it on their thread I could understand your reaction. But I posted in this thread – the one about getting things cheaper.

Perhaps you don’t remember the ‘price war’ on engine building that happened (including an ex site sponsor) a couple of years ago. I got calls from people looking for price quotes that told me I was crazy – they could get a 3.0 turbo motor for $4500 and how dare I question that. Funny, about half a year later I got to answer a lot of questions about why their motors were now broken. I felt sorry for these people – even the ones that were less than diplomatic when I told them how much a good engine would cost. These folks were now out $4500, the item and money to remove and reinstall the engine and shipping costs. This was because of a price war. People had the dream projects trashed, business got hurt and the community did not gain anything.

To sum this all up – what are the possible gains to the community from this?
Short term – cheaper chips/software

What are the risks –
Lack of product support (a fact of business – some of the $ you spend on a product go towards support. If you make less on the sale of a product then you have to cut something out…)
A vendor goes out of business. I don’t see the community’s gain here.
A vendor decides that the 951 market isn’t worth the time. – from a purely business perspective the 951 market is a very bad market. I don’t like that but it is true. SFR figured this out….

I hope both vendors in question prosper – and I hope that their products work well. The only point I was trying to make it hat this will not happen if there is a price war and that is what thought the original poster was so gleefully expecting.