Mark-87-951

No I didnt ohm out the dme or klr harness as I figured I had the fuel problem solved and that was the issue. I have a digital fp gauge for the lindsey rail set up I just got. It's a bit of a pain to wire it up in this weather though. I managed to get some life out of the tach when I tried to start it this morning, but figures, the battery was too drained, for good cranking. I'm guessing I'll get the battery recharged and be back to the tach just barely wiggling and still no start again. Wire from coil to cap has continuity and only 0.3 resistance.

So I know the injectors are spraying, so wouldnt that indicate no spark for some reason?

Mark-87-951

I've got excessive current draw somewhere. I set my multimeter to 2000u and got as high as 102mA, well above the 65mA max per Clark's Garage. I'll try removing the alarm bypass first and see what happens but I had managed to start the car with it bypassed earlier in this saga. If it's something else, it's going to be a pain as the reading took some minutes to reach 102mA and was still slowly ticking up when I quit, due to the cold weather.

Mark-87-951

Well, tried bypassing the alarm a different way, per Clark's, no change in the reading, still climbing. I pulled every fuse, no change, the numbers kept going up, as high as 200+ before I bumped the meter slightly and had trouble getting a consistent reading after that. The display takes several seconds to go up 1mA, that's a pain in the *** in this cold, dang it! Any suggestions?

azmi951

I have your same problem...it just devloped and I know that some of your issues are the same as mine.

When I was looking at my speed or referance sensor I saw that the two signal wires were touching on one of them, I need to replace the harness. What can be the fall out from the wires touching? A burned up KLR or DME?

I already have,
New ground cables,
injector harness,
dme relay,
Checked the speed and referance sensors,

This is frusterating. I need to get this done.

PorscheMD

I don't know about the 65ma from clarks but, that figure is not accurate. that is still way too high. The number should bee in the teens in milliamps. With all your doors shut, key out of ignition,button on the hood by the fuse box pushed in,etc..

azmi951

look in the "puzzling no start" thread. I posted in today. I found my problem. It was a corroded alarm box by the DME.

Mark-87-951

I just verified I'm getting fuel from the injectors AND spark. The car still will not start. The tach only wiggles and the boost gauge doesnt work at all, though that's been like that long before the no start condition. Is it possible the starter just isnt working right and not getting enough rpms???

I've replaced all the usual suspects, the factory alarm module, dme, klr etc.

Now I've got a sticker on my car threatening to tow it unless I move it in 96 hours and Im set to go out of town sunday for a week to our office in Georgia. WTF!!!

Hopefully peeling that freakin sticker off and pushing the car 20ft will suffice. I cant believe the asses, its licensed and insured and parked on the side a road thats in the apt. complex, where everyone else parks.

Mark-87-951

Help?

I'm at my wits end here. I have fuel and spark but it wont fire up.

I've replaced:

DME relay
Both sensors
wires to sensors
Fuel injector wires
DME. klr and factory alarm module (used but said to be working)
Swapped huntley chips with stock chips - no change
Rotor, cap
coil
Battery
Main battery cable/ground

After all this I have spark and fuel but still not starting

I've thought maybe timing got way off but at several points in this ordeal it started and I remember driving it once around the block and it was fine only to not start the next day.

AlexE

Hi Mark,

I actually went and read these 6 pages of posts.... Please don't take this the wrong way.

BUT that has to be the worst troubleshooting procedure I have ever seen. This is a text book example of how throwing parts at a problem does not cure the problem.

I need to take a deep breath........and so do you. You have been at this for 6 months. I am amazed no one here has broken down a step by step no start procedure for you.

I want you to forget EVERYTHING you have done. EVERYTHING everyone has told you.

I need these things confirmed.

1. Align the engine at TDC. Pull the distributor and make sure the rotor is pointing where it is supposed to. CHECK that all timing marks align. DOUBLE CHECK . Move on to next step. Make sure the rotor is on tight and cover is on straight. IF things do not line up you have bigger problems.

2. CHeck to see if you have 12 v at the coils small black wire with the key on. If you do then check and see if you have 12 v at any of the injectors. One of the pins should read 12v the other a little lower ~10v. CHECK ALL 4. If you have no voltage at the coil then check the ignition switch that could be the problem. If you have voltage at the coil but not at the injectors then check the DME relay. IF you have strange voltage readings in any of the four pairs you have a short.

4. You should be able to hear the fuel pump run for ~ a second after you stop cranking. If not you can bypass the DME relay by using a jumper as shown in clarks-garage. You could have a bad DME relay or bad pump.

5. PUll the plugs one at a time. CRANK ....confirm spark for each one. I know this is tedious but seriously........ it has been 6 months. You must confirm spark at all plugs before you move on. If you have no spark then DME or reference sensor problem.

6. PULL the fuel rail. CRANK. CONFIRM nice spray of fuel. If no fuel. Injector harness shorted or bad fpr.

7. I would be checking the fuel pressure but if you don't have a guage pull the injector connector for one injector and crank. If it starts bad FPR.

Thats all for now.

Keep at it. I will stick to this post until it starts.

We may need to dig deeper into the klr or dme ignition driver but lets see what you get from the above tests first.

Mark-87-951

AlexE,

I'm pissed off enough as it is, so your intro to your reply post isn't very helpful. I've pretty much covered the issues you mention, one way or another throughout this ordeal.

1. As I noted in my last entry, I've had the car start several times in this long process and drove it a bit once with no problem only to have it not start the next day. That's why I question the timing issue. It's going to be bad then good and then poof! be bad and never good enough again? I havent heard any sound indicating the valves hitting pistons. However, since everything else has been checked one way or another I'll check the markings and TDC, just for grins and giggles.

2. - 7. I checked 3 plugs and I have spark. I figured pulling the 4th wasnt worth the hassle as the car doesnt even hiccup. I've bypassed the dme relay before and heard the pump. I did have a no fuel problem before as I didnt wire the injector harness ground very well, but I've since fixed that. I have several times since then pulled the rail and placed paper under the injectors and I'm getting fuel. I pulled one injector before and it didnt change anything and fuel is spraying from all injectors anyway. Maybe the spray pattern is too messed up? But I had the injectors cleaned and balanced Feb. of 06. Is it possible that pressure is enough to get fuel from the injectors but not enough to get a decent spray pattern for starting? Would this result in not even getting a hiccup from the car?

As for replacing parts. The dme relay was the first, then IIRC the sensors, then the wires to the sensors, then the fuel injector wires. All of which were in bad shape as it was. The tach wasnt reading and only barely bounces now, so the sensor replacement was indicated, after the dme relay. The battery cables were in bad shape, even the main power cable insulation cracked and corrosion on the wire, so that was necessary to replace just for that reason alone, especially when the dme relay, sensors and wire replacement had no affect and the main ground cable was also corroded. The cap and rotor were replaced due to inspection revealing they were in bad shape.

So, it's not that I've just been throwing things *****-nilly without any ryhme or reason or doing the most expensive thing first and considering I'm doing this crap in the street, by myself and without all the tools that others may have handy, I'm doing the best I can. Part of what has stretched this out is that working during the week is difficult because of a lack of light after work and of course the weather can get in the way at any time. For instance, it's raining pretty hard right now. Oh joy.

But thanks for the help, and hopefully this stupid car will consistently start soon. I suppose on the bright side, once it does it should run pretty good :/

AlexE

Hey Mark,

I dont mean to offend. I could just feel your level of frustration so dont take my comments personally.
THese cars are not as complicated as we make them out to seem. If its an intermittent no-start yes those are a pain and a half to figure out. But this vehicle is sitting in a no start condition. Perfect for troubleshooting.

If You work long enough on these cars you find that just listening to them crank you know what is wrong. You have covered the majority of the steps but there is a systematic way of checking things.

I have a pretty good idea what is wrong but you need to rule out things before we jump ahead.

Lets verify the obvious.

Step 1. We do not just check timing to ensure valves are not hitting, it also forces you to look at things you would typically assume are fine. Timing is key for a running engine.

Step 2-7 should isolate the issue. Could be FPR, Injectors, Harness, Reference Sensor, Coil, Ignition switch, DME relay, fuel pump

Step 8-9 would help you determine KLR or DME issue.

Take your time and double check.

Go ahead and kick me. I know you are at the end of you rope. You have to kick someone ... hehehe

pflyers

This may sound obvious but you may want to just have it towed to a shop. My car just had the same issues yours does. I messed around with all the same stuff you did and it wouldn't start. I decided I don't have the time, knowledge and tools to do this right. Towed it to a shop and it took them about 2 hours ($140 labor) to find it. It was a combination of about 3 different things all simple shorts but 3 at once. Runs perfect now and I didn't have to even think about the car which was well worth it.

Mark-87-951

I'm about at that point. I've had a local garage do some things on my car. The head mechanic used to own a porsche so he should be able to handle this.

I think it is more than one thing. Even if the timing is off, which I doubt, it doesnt explain the tachometer just barely moving, or that the car started a few times and drove perfectly fine one of those times, until it went back to no start the next day.

Mark-87-951

Ok, I talked to Chuck at Paragon Products and he was stumped as well. He did give me some ideas though he thought these were slim chances as to being the issue.

Bad plugs?
Not getting compression?
Lack of fuel pressure?

Replaced spark plugs

I tested compression, 140-145 with #3,4 seeming to lose pressure fast. I'm not sure if that is an issue or even related to this problem

Got a fuel pressure gauge on the rail. Cranked and got no pressure. I bypassed the new DME relay and got 2.62 bar which was maintained while I cranked. I plugged the DME relay back in, cranked and pressure just continued to drop.

He thought maybe the engine wasn't getting air. I disconnected the intercooler pipe to TB and no change at all.

I'm not sure what to conclude from the fuel pressure issues. I know the injectors fire with the new DME relay plugged in. I didnt check to see if they did when it was bypassed. Is it possible I somehow got a new DME relay that's bad?

I'll call him this week and check to see if the injectors fire with the DME relay bypassed this weekend.

rberry951

OMG! This is still going on?

Look closely at the contacts in the fuse panel where the DME relay plugs in, I think maybe they are pushed down and the DME relay isn't making contact with some of the pins. You can pull the whole panel up, push the pins up from the underside while you push the DME relay in.

Regards,
Russell