Raceboy

BTW, on missing tooth wheel the actual trigger event takes place only once, the graph on tooth wheel looks like usual sinusoidal graph with spike on the trigger event.
Triggering 2 times per revolution looks the same, except the line is flat and trigger event is rectangular on Hall sensor and sinusoidal on VR sensor (because Hall sensor is actually a switch, not a sensor).

Only real advantage of the tooth wheel vs 2 pins on the crank is when one wants to stop the engine always in one position and ecu has to count tooth to do that (for example, starterless starting of the engine).

OZ951

With respect to Chris's comments I'd agree that 60-2 motronic offers more timing accuracy. In practical terms an engine under load is limited in how fast it can accelerate in 180deg between magnets. So in practise it does not seem to make that much difference as there are examples of flying magnet ECU's producinng goodresults.

If you do need to extract the last ounce of performance based on timing then you do have the included option to run 60-2 with the E8. The E6X was Haltechs first attemp at including an on-board reluctor adapter (for 60-2) and it works in many cases but it struggled in mine - I suspect due to alternator induced noise. The E8 is a later iteration and may well have an improved circuit. In any case there is also an external reluctor adapter available to process the 60-2 signal close to the trigger and so avoid noise issues. I was tempted to try the external reluctor adapter but elected to use the hall effect trigger due to its reputed ease of setup and relative immunity from noise. Setting up 60-2 on Haltech takes some trial and error in the software gain & filter settings to achieve a trigger signal that is noise free.

Raceboy

Ok, please explain me the difference in accuracy when 60-2 trigger wheel has ONE trigger event per engine revolution and usual magnets or notches has TWO.
Trigger event is only one, not constant on tooth wheel. Have you guys ever seen a graph on oscilloscope on both types of triggers? I have because I've dealt with them for some time.
ECU triggers on the trigger event and there's very few ECUs that count teeth and calculate ign timing prior to trigger event.
That's why one needs to put trigger notches 60-80 degrees BTDC so that ECU knows the exact reference point.

Raceboy

OZ951, VR sensors are extremely vulnarable by noise inducted from bad ground and/or poor shielding. Shielded cable is a must when using VR sensors. As the amplitude and frequency rises with rpm, VR sensor is sensitive to noise on low rpm, i.e. cranking.
Shielding has to be connected separately, not to be used as a ground wire and shielding has to be connected only to the ECUs side to the sensor ground.

OZ951

The 60-2 trigger wheel enables the ECU to track every tooth not just the missing teeth for the trigger. Thus providing the possibility of updating the RPM between trigger events. Whether it does or not depends on the ECU.

OZ951

It was correctly shielded, thank you. I also tried supplementrary shielding, re-routing of looms away from RFI sources, use of ferrite cores on key loom elements and relay isolation of injector and ignition power looms to minimise potential for noise there. My grounds are also excellent. It was also tried with all available gain and filter settings. A full range of sensor to trigger wheel spacings were tried and the solid clewett bracket absolutely minimises any movement between the sensor and trigger wheel.

jeffdicicco

Do I do away with the factory TPS for Haltech's Sensor? Does the Hall Effect Sensor work well at the ring gear/on the bell housing?
Just a couple of questions to keep this flowing. I need to chew on what you guys were suggesting above for a bit - all very good information to consider.
Stand by while I put together my shopping list. I'll post it as soon as I iron it all out to get feedback from you guys.

I'm new to the list and since my car is covered in dust in my garage (friends are even writing smart *** comments on my windshield), I won't be taking any shots of her for your viewing pleasure until she's up and running which at this rate is looking like somewhere around the middle of the century. If you guys dig art half as much as you dig cars, check out the "motor oils" section of my website if you'd like at www.jeffdicicco.com. I do oils on canvas, photo realism of the very thing that we love too much - cars.

OZ951

By using a simple adapter plate you can slide the Haltech TPS onto the stock throttle shaft. You screw it in place and then set the TPS range in software. No the hall effect sensor wont work on the flywheel unless you setup new reference magnets on the flywheel - that would be possible but I wouldn't recommend it -its much easier to get to a crank sensor mounted at the pulley end.

Chris White

Correct - it uses each tooth to calculate the position - the missing teeth are there to confirm TDC.
As far as the noise issue – if the ECU can use a hall effect sensor you should try that out – they are much less sensitive to noise than a magnetic sensor. I can use mag sensors just fine for the crank but I have to go to a hall effect for cams.

Chris White

Raceboy

Most aftermarket ECUs don't count teeth during operation, most Motronics do though.
I've installed-used both (tooth wheels and notches) and haven't noticed ANY difference. Markus951 car used custom cam wheel that had notches last season, this year he converted it to use stock sensors and there's no difference.
Is there any specific reason why Haltech can't use stock TPS? 951 TPS can be used as a "normal" one with 3 wires, just use 3 middle ones, we already have done this.

Chris White

If you do a little research you will find out the Electromotive invented and patented the 60-2 trigger wheel concept. The system runs a complex virtual model of the engine speed based on input from each event picked up by the sensor.

Using the cam as a trigger greatly lowers the resolution of the system – first by 50% for running at half the speed and then by the fluctuations caused by the rubber belt.

It adds up little by little until you have a significant variation. What’s significant? Well that depends on how much safety margin you want to have – or how much absolute power/control you want.

Raceboy

Markus951 had 4 notches when he used cam wheel, that's what the Tatech instructed. Most ECUs don't work with only one notch (or require cam sync additionally).
I agree: cam is NOT the place to pick up rpm signal (belt itself plays 3-5 degrees through the rpm range).