ivai

I second everything you said Andial.

John, my personal opinion is that Vendors should be as nice, friendly, and helpful as possible in all interactions with customers and/or potential customers. In this case, that means rennlist. I'm with Andial, I think you're a stand up guy and have wonderful products, but I'm just letting you know that sometimes you come off as confrontational here -- sometimes with other vendors, and sometimes with regular rennlist members -- and I don't think that's good for any Vendor's public relations. Even if the majority of rennlist members don't say anything about it, most probably note it.

My .02

951and944S

Agreed 100% (with Pauerman as well).....

TS

Buckaroo Banzi

I don't think it's stupid in fact I think it's healthy!
Promax was reviewed recently by a magazine and in my estimation the article was not favable to the Promax system.

As a customer I want to know from reliable sources that the products I am purchasing with my hard earned dollars are not crap.

How many of us would pony up 1.7k for an Authority MAF?

I for one would be very hesitant on spending 1k on a promax unit given the recent 911 write up.
Read the article for yourself and make up your own minds after all it's your money.

david fracolli

I have been sitting back watching this thread unfold and i have to agree with Pauerman, Andial951 and 951 and 944S. Maybe it is just me but I find it very strange that a vendor would be asking another vendor in a public forum on behalf of his customers about the other vendors product.
John, our your customers unable to ask Andrew themselve?
I also do not see what the article by 911 magazine has to do with with this thread. As stated let people read the article and make up their own minds.

fast951

Guys, What is wrong with asking a question. Did I make any negative comments regarding Andrew's products? What is wrong with asking the appropriate questions. Some of the emails I received were from people that did not understand the details, they wouldn't know what to ask. I was presented with claims that did not make much sense, so this is why I asked Andrew. I asked on the forum so everyone can view the responses..

Did I ask any non-technical question? No. This is a technical forum, why are so many of you bothered. What does being a vendor vs. non vendor has anything to do with technical information.

As far as being threatened by the products.. Far from it!

As far as bein confrontational.. Well there is lots of things that take place away from the RennList, when someone tries to make negative comments toward me to serve a hidden agenda, it's very legitimate for me to confront them. I don't run and hide. If I ever confronted anyone without a reason then I'll be the first one to offer my appologies..

Now can we resume the technical discussion? Don't you want to know?

RK951

As a customer of both Vitesse and Promax I actually value when vendors CONSTRUCTIVELY question the methods or approaches of another. The technical information discussed is a breath of fresh air to much of the routine garbage and I enjoy learning the details between the different products. From the thread earlier this year, John, Andrew and Thomas each presented their products in greater detail then what we normally hear about. Why would anyone not want more information about these products?

951and944S

Being one that agreed with the original view of Pauerman, the Andial951, I'd be happy to reply, especially given that I don't have a dog in this fight, having never bought products from either vendor.
I only rarely post here (much less than years ago) and although I'm only a lowly registred "user", I'm quite ceratin that alot of people here would attest that I've helped them out over the years.

On to the reply-

In a way John, maybe without even knowing it, possibly from a confidence in your products you do make negative comments about copetitors and their products.

As in a reply in this very thread where you go on raving about "what a good software" is supposed to do as to insinuate that anyone else;s is sub par.

In another thread where you offer "entry level" turbos as an alternative to your $3500+ kits (the same turbos offered by other vendors) you take off the cuff jabs as if anything that doesn't say Vitesse on it is junk.

In possibly that same thread you post information that should be left private when telling about another vendor who allegedly attempted to copy or dissect one of your turbos while insinuating that they were not intelligent enough (as you obviously) in being able to "get it".....

Then from your perch, you post a thread about the new 'Vitesse Stealth MAF' kit when you see yourself losing sales to a competitor by customers who want an emissions concerned specific product introduced by a competitor when the discalimer on your own site states "for off road use only"....?

Countless times, potential customers ask you specific questions here in a public forum but you guard your proprietary products by shirking specific questions or closing the door to every person interested in a specific topic by giving the old- "PM me privately to discuss further routine" but yet you have the nerve to ask Andrew all sorts of questions about his product and end your last post with-

"Now can we resume the technical discussion? Don't you want to know?"

I could go on but you get the gist.....

TS

Porschefile

Guys, lets stop getting OT. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that it's getting really old seeing every topic turn into a "lets talk about Vitesse" topic (no offense intended John).

Excellent product Andrew. Everything looks very clean, stealthy and nicely done. If I didn't already have a maf, I would be very interested in one of yours.

951Boost

No problem , back OT;

Andrew a few months back you mentioned that your company was developing a non stealth MAF kit. Just wondering if you know when this would be available. Will it be made available with the 1.2 bar chips and 1.5 bar MAP sensor so it can run the factory Boost Control (the factory EBC using the KLR and cycling valve)? And a rough estimate of the price?

TIA

promax_motorsport

Hi,

This was on a 944 8v where the power gains are minimal and the benefits are essentially drivability and throttle response based.

Steve's (the editor) 1986 944 8v n/a is down on power and we have it in the workshop today (Friday 21st) to investigate. We also think there is an inlet or vacuum line leak after the SciVision MAF. Other than that - the car performs well with the MAF fitted. We are also fitting the MAF ECU chip to finish off the install (which the owner didn't have time to do).

The Turbo is different becuase the AFM really is a restriction - hence, going MAF does unlock more power and greatly improved response. Check with the Rennlisters that have one fitted.

We also have a SciVision MAF conversion for 911 3.2 and 964 (both include revised DME software) and 944S2 (which responds better than the 944 8v generally).

On normally aspirated cars, the SciVision MAF improves smoothness, drivability and response. It won't have much effect on power alone. It is the MAF optimised ECU chip that exploits the MAF fitment and provides the additional power and torque. The 944S2 does not require a chip to feel the benefit, but would still benefit from an ECU re-map to get the full benefit of the MAF.

On Turbo cars - just fitting the MAF alone will increase performance as boost builds quicker and does not die off so readilly (especially on K26/6 equipped cars).

Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com

sweanders

I believe that the questions John is asking are very fair since the selling point of his MAF-kits are that with Vitesse software it is MAF all the way and not a massaged signal. The Promax MAF should work very well but it seems to use a signal translator to get the MAF values acceptable for the AFM based calculations of the DME. As most would agree to it will however be very sensitive to changes in the system (engine) since it's calibration will be skewed if any changes are done.

Some might think that it is unfair by John to ask these questions on a public forum but both Promax and Vitesse are sponsors of this forum and reading these discussions is very rewarding for the visitors, it can be considered free education. I am sure that both and Andrew and John often get questions from potential customers about why their product should be chosen and not the competitors. It is very important that they give the customer correct information so that the customer can make an educated choice.

Anyone can take their pick, I have Vitesse products on my car and bought them before Promax showed up here on the forum. Looking back I would have made the same decision since it is not a bandaid solution but instead a redeign of vital components that are limited by the stock design..

fast951

OT one more time, but I must reply to this post...

- I am confident about the Vitesse products, you are 100% correct. I NEVER put down vendors, not here, not in private emaila. Do I put down products, yes if I think they have problems. (NOT RELATED TO Andrew's MAF)

- As far as the "good software". There are many software solutions. Vitesse offers the "BEST" MAF software. Prove me wrong by testing the various products and I will retract my comment.

- There are many vendors that sell "off-the-shelf" non-custom turbos. The turbos are bruaght to market at lower prices than custom turbos. In my opinion, the off-the-shelf are ok, but not great. So they are inferior to custom turbos. It has nothing to do with Vitesse or any other vendor. Even in my post, I stated that the Vitesse "entry level" will not perform like the VR custom turbos.
So where did I put down any vendor? Facts are facts.

- As far as mentioning the fact that someone tried to copy a the VR turbos.. Well on top of being dishonest (wanting to benefit from someone elses R&D), they missed the boat. Did I mention names? NO. They know who they are.

- We offer a stealth MAF as many people ask us. THERE IS NO 951 MAF SYSTEM THAT IS LEGAL IN ANY STATE!! They might run clean, they might pass emission testing, but they are ALL for off-road/racing use only!.

- When customers request quotes or have a unique application. I ask them to email me so I can provide them with the best service. On the forum I might miss a question or not be responsive fast enough. This is why I ask them to email me directly. When I qualify a request as a business transaction, I do request direct emails. Transaction details are not to be conducted on any forum.

Now back to topic....

Weissach Vampire

How are you going to be able to adjust boost with your new 1.5 bar KLR(If able)?

Regards Jeremias

daigo

I for one enjoy reading “technical” forums that I have an interest in. The best minds are more than likely going to be in business of development for the purposes of selling products they’ve developed through their vast knowledge of the topic at hand. I would venture to say that we have all gained some of the knowledge we have from vendors who have spent time and intellectual property developing their mouse trap. Every so often someone builds a better mouse trap. This forum, like other technical forums provides an avenue for these discussions and comparisons to happen. So long as there is “respect” between the vendors I think it’s healthy for all of us to have them participate in these forums and yes, that means asking what may be perceived as tough questions. John and Andrew have been able to speak to things most of us didn’t understand. But now, through these threads we have increased our understanding. And all with out anyone showing aggression or disrespect. So I thank you both and hope that this healthy rivalry results in further development and benefits all of us.

My .02 cents (Canadian)

promax_motorsport

Hio All,

I'v been away for a while (had a monster track day yesterday smoking numerous GT3s [but not the GT3RS] in my near standard 944 Turbo :-)).

Anyway, those questions that John (Vitesse) was asking:

- Do you use a AFM chip with an external signal massager or do you have a MAF code where the transfer function is inside the code?
The SciVision MAF kit uses a signal processing computer to convert the HFM5 signal to an AFM analogue voltage equivalent - this is a very simplistic explanation - but essentially this is how it works. The ECU still sees an AFM. SciVision have deliberately stayed as close to the factory system as possible. This way all the ECU safety margins can be utilised. SciVision products are tested to work under extreme duress and high speed Autobahn use - the factory ECU combination offers useful protection to safeguard the engine under these circumstances. It makes sense to use it.

- Are you saying the KLR (after measuring boost) will alter the fuel delivery which is a function of the DME?
The KLR controls knock and hence will instruct timing retard if that happens. Fuel is scaled by the MAF/AFM signal under partial load (as the ECU uses a 3D lookup table in the DME chip) and is used to a lesser extent at WOT. The SciVision MAF chips (which include a re-mapped KLR) ensure that fuel is correct for up to 1.0 bar boost (or 1.2 bar with the 1.2 bar chips). If boost goes too high (beyond the capabilities of the DME and injector duty cycle), the KLR will protect the engine.

- According to you, your system detects boost (function of KLR) and will alter the fueling accordingly. If that is the case, what would happen if you have a large turbo, which flows lots of air at 1 bar boost. Yet the K26/6 flows less air at the "SAME" 1bar boost.. Fueling is different for the two. Or are you saying that you assume the turbo is always a K26?
The turbo can be any turbo as the KLR is looking for pressure in the inlet manifold nearest the hottest part of the engine (#4). 1.0 bar of boost is 1.0 bar of boost which ever way you look at it and which ever turbocharger is used.

- Would you please elaborate the relatioship between overboost protection and knock. You say that overboost protection is triggered by knock.
When the 944 Turbo factory ECU detects knock, ignition is retarded. If the situation continues for an extended period, the KLR switches the cycling valve to minimise boost and ignition remains retarded up to 6 degrees until the ignition is reset.

Hopefully that gives everybody an idea without divulging too much technical detail! ;-)

Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com